Partly defending Pascal's Wager? (only one popular eternal hell for non-believers)

[excreationist]

Pascal's Wager began talking about Christianity....

If you believe in Jesus/God:
Jesus/God exists - go to paradise forever
Jesus/God doesn't exist - time wasted, etc

If you don't believe in Jesus/God:
Jesus/God exists - go to hell forever
Jesus/God doesn't exist - nothing

A counter-argument is that there could be other hells depending on the god.... e.g. Islam, Mormonism, etc.

But I think in those other hells non-believers don't necessarily go there (Islam?, Mormonism) or hell isn't eternal (Jehovah Witnesses?)

A small number of Christians believe that most so-called Christians are going to hell (forever) - they can say this involves a religious "demon".... that still involves a form of Christianity...

I'd assume that the God that sends non-believers to hell would be somewhat well known in order to give people a chance - though I believe in a non-obvious God that is part of a simulation. I also believe that eternal hell (within a simulation) is impossible due to the way that simulations work - though it could last for the equivalent of a million years....

If the god who sends all unbelievers to hell is unknown then I don't think that can be factored into Pascal's Wager.

So besides in Christianity are you aware of any gods that send all non-believers to an eternal hell full of suffering?

 

[DBT]

The idea of having a wager in order to be 'saved' is absurd.

 

[Tigers!]

Pascal's Wager began talking about Christianity....



So besides in Christianity are you aware of any gods that send all non-believers to an eternal hell full of suffering?

Muslims have the concept of a hell for unbelievers.
Orthodox Jews have such areas too. See Daniel 12 and the parable of rich man and Lazarus

 

[Politesse]

Orthodox Jews have such areas too.

This is sort of true, but deceptive, as the Orthodox perception of hell is not a "place of eternal torment" but rather a sort of spiritual state of proximity to God, more akin to the Orthodox Christian view. It's also not a doctrine the same way as in Christian circles, more a matter of common speculation. You can read about the Jewish conversation here: https://www.yeshiva.co/ask/6803

Islamic hell is also a bit different as it is understood as strictly meritocratic; it's the weight of your conduct that drags you down into it. So, simply changing your beliefs would not be sufficient to save you; if it should win Pascal's wager somehow, you would be obliged to change a fair bit of your life to suit God's desires for humanity.

 

[excreationist]

Muslims have the concept of a hell for unbelievers.

According to Islam, are all non-Muslims going to hell?

www.alislam.org

According to Islam, are all non-Muslims going to hell?
The short answer is ‘No’.

Heaven, Hell, and Non-Muslims in the Qur’an - Yale University Press

Gabriel Said Reynolds— Heaven and hell are important notions to the Qur’an, the scripture of Islam. The divine voice of the Qur’an assures its audience that those who are faithful... READ MORE

blog.yalebooks.com

Here the Qur’an had a perfect moment to declare that Christians are condemned, but it chose instead to leave their fate to the will of God

Orthodox Jews have such areas too. See Daniel 12 and the parable of rich man and Lazarus

I think Sadducees could be called orthodox Jews and they didn't believe in the afterlife. Daniel 12 and the parable would be seen by Christians as evidence for their belief that all non-Christians are going to an eternal hell.

 

[excreationist]

I think we can make the positive claim that nothing like 'gods' exist

The question is about scientific theories that can prove a god can not exist. When I see one, I'll let you know. Well, there is the hypothetical of whether the universe is some interaction of iteration along properties that exist within the number line, such as "the universe is really just a...

iidb.org

I'm saying that it seems only Christianity is relevant to the wager....

Why? Polytheists also know how to gamble. Indeed, you could argue they know how to do it better. The consequences of upsetting Athene are no less severe than those of upsetting YHWH, they're just different. She won't burn your soul in an eternal hell, but she will happily destroy your life, your country, or worst of all (from an ancient patrilineal society's point of view) your family line.

Surely eternal agony is infinitely worse than those things. So it seems to be better to believe in Jesus/God than Athene. And you could probably be a Christian and also avoid upsetting Athene. And it seems Athene hasn't provided much evidence of her existence so she can't really blame you for not considering her.

Eternal suffering is an unpleasant thought, but from the ancient Hellenistic perspective, an unavoidable one. Toadying up to the gods helped the living, but it did nothing for the dead. Only a brave few achieved Elysium, and they had to have divine blood to get in. Nobles had a slim chance, but commoners were f*cked. One thing that probably made Christianity more popular. Your average slave doesn't care much about the fates of nations, but an escape from Hades is worth... dying for.

Yes that is related to the wager.
BTW apparently the idea of an immortal soul (and hence an eternal hell) was a Greek belief - but not Jewish - then it became the church tradition....

Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

Why hell is destruction, not eternal torment. Absolute Biblical proof of conditional immortality. What was taught in the Old Testament? What did Judaism teach? In-depth discussion on Conditional Immortality, Annihilationism, Traditionalism, and more! Here are the answers/Scriptures that you...

www.jewishnotgreek.com

 

[Politesse]

And you could probably be a Christian and also avoid upsetting Athene. And it seems Athene hasn't provided much evidence of her existence so she can't really blame you for not considering her.

On the other hand, consider probability. There are a millions, an uncountable number, of animist or polytheist beings. If they are only promising temporal punishment, that might be lighter case by case than Dante's Hell, but if it's rather more likely that at least some of those entities are real, wouldn't a simple altar to an unknown God simply be sensible? Otherwise, you're risking quite a lot of temporal suffering in the physical world you know exists, to avoid a very improbable fate in a spiritual realm you're only told exists.

BTW apparently the idea of an immortal soul (and hence an eternal hell) was a Greek belief - but not Jewish - then it became the church tradition....

Christians don't like to talk about it, but theirs is a syncretic tradition in a great many respects, not just cosmology; a slow blending of the Hellenistic and Semitic worldviews that had begun well before Jesus' lifetime and ended well after his death. This is even somewhat true of modern Judaism, but it made Christianity everything it is.

 

[excreationist]

And you could probably be a Christian and also avoid upsetting Athene. And it seems Athene hasn't provided much evidence of her existence so she can't really blame you for not considering her.

On the other hand, consider probability. There are a millions, an uncountable number, of animist or polytheist beings.

Are there any examples of these beings apparently sending all non-believers into eternal agony? It seems other gods/religions usually allow good and moral non-believers a chance to avoid severe punishment. Also animist and polytheist beings might not have the authority or power to be able to send every single non-believer to hell for an eternity.....

If they are only promising temporal punishment, that might be lighter case by case than Dante's Hell, but if it's rather more likely that at least some of those entities are real, wouldn't a simple altar to an unknown God simply be sensible? Otherwise, you're risking quite a lot of temporal suffering in the physical world you know exists, to avoid a very improbable fate in a spiritual realm you're only told exists.

Well a large proportion of the world believe there is lot of good evidence that the Christian God exists - (not just word of mouth) so they have a good chance of avoiding eternal hell... unlike the chance those theoretical animist and polytheist beings give us....

 

[Politesse]

Well a large proportion of the world believe there is lot of good evidence that the Christian God exists - (not just word of mouth) so they have a good chance of avoiding eternal hell... unlike the chance those theoretical animist and polytheist beings give us....

No more so than assumed the same of the other gods, when polytheism was in its political prime.

 

[excreationist]

Well a large proportion of the world believe there is lot of good evidence that the Christian God exists - (not just word of mouth) so they have a good chance of avoiding eternal hell... unlike the chance those theoretical animist and polytheist beings give us....

No more so than assumed the same of the other gods, when polytheism was in its political prime.

I think the thing about polytheist and animist beings though is most aren't the supreme being and don't have complete power so they wouldn't be capable of sending every single non-believer to hell forever....

 

[Politesse]

Well a large proportion of the world believe there is lot of good evidence that the Christian God exists - (not just word of mouth) so they have a good chance of avoiding eternal hell... unlike the chance those theoretical animist and polytheist beings give us....

No more so than assumed the same of the other gods, when polytheism was in its political prime.

I think the thing about polytheist and animist beings though is most aren't the supreme being and don't have complete power so they wouldn't be capable of sending every single non-believer to hell forever....

Well, no. But eternal suffering in hell is not the only possible form of suffering, is it? Personally, I spend a lot more time worrying about my house burning down than my soul. The other nice thing about most polytheist deities, is that for the most part they neither need nor care about belief. Set up a few altars, leave the occasional offering, and you're fly. No need for groveling.

 

[excreationist]

The other nice thing about most polytheist deities, is that for the most part they neither need nor care about belief. Set up a few altars, leave the occasional offering, and you're fly. No need for groveling.

Though unlike them God also gets really jealous..... he even says his name is "Jealous".... (Exodus 34:14) So you seem to be agreeing that those non-Christian gods don't really care about belief.... so belief in Jesus/God is what really matters with this wager.

I think the thing about polytheist and animist beings though is most aren't the supreme being and don't have complete power so they wouldn't be capable of sending every single non-believer to hell forever....

Well, no. But eternal suffering in hell is not the only possible form of suffering, is it? Personally, I spend a lot more time worrying about my house burning down than my soul.

I think eternal hell outweighs just about any other kind of suffering... assuming it is real or somewhat likely...

 

[excreationist]

BTW this is about my sisters' pastor who calls himself a prophet. He believes his Christian grandmother went to hell:

He believes most "Christians" are going to hell too due to religious demons, etc.
He thinks eternal hell shows that God is great: (excerpts I put together)

A crime is so great against God -
His glory is so great and so awesome
That for us to disobey Him -
The only fitting punishment that we know
The only fitting punishment that can righteously by given by God.
Do you know that that left me with?
It left me with - there's the glory of the punishment
Then I started thinking about how glorious He must truly be
If that is the punishment for rejecting His glory
For falling short of His glory
If that is the punishment
Forevermore without rest we become pain itself
How great truly is His glory
The penalty is great - the Lake of Fire - because the crime is great
The crime is great and I just went well Lord, how great are you.
That's the penalty and it's forever.
Men become pain - how great are you.

 

[DBT]

The God of Love and tender mercy?

''The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.'' - Psalm 145:9

 

[excreationist]

From a speech by Alan Watts:

1.2.4. - Mythology of Hinduism - Pt. 2

This is the world of the Deva. And this is the same root from which we get both divine and devil, but Deva means angel. The highest and most successful beings in the universe, and so opposite this is the world of narac, naraka, who are the most unsuccessful .These are the purgatorial worlds of […]

alanwatts.org

The possibility involved in the Christian gamble is to fry in hell forever and ever and ever and ever. Even the Avici hell at the bottom of the Naraka only goes on for about one Kalpa. But the everlasting damnation. What an idea. So the Hindu says Bravo, you know. God has really done a dare on himself this time to be a Christian soul.

A "kalpa" is 4.32 billion years....

Kalpa (time) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Though Christians don't usually believe that humans are actually God who forgot their identity....

 

[DBT]

Christian theology doesn't teach it.

 

[excreationist]

Christian theology doesn't teach it.

Just as well otherwise God would be stuck in hell for a long time.... he kind of did go to hell as a human but that didn't quite last the normal eternity that humans would face....

 

[Politesse]

The other nice thing about most polytheist deities, is that for the most part they neither need nor care about belief. Set up a few altars, leave the occasional offering, and you're fly. No need for groveling.

Though unlike them God also gets really jealous..... he even says his name is "Jealous".... (Exodus 34:14) So you seem to be agreeing that those non-Christian gods don't really care about belief.... so belief in Jesus/God is what really matters with this wager.

I think the thing about polytheist and animist beings though is most aren't the supreme being and don't have complete power so they wouldn't be capable of sending every single non-believer to hell forever....

Well, no. But eternal suffering in hell is not the only possible form of suffering, is it? Personally, I spend a lot more time worrying about my house burning down than my soul.

I think eternal hell outweighs just about any other kind of suffering... assuming it is real or somewhat likely...

If someone can manipulate you into a quite certain short term loss by threatening you with a terrifying but deeply unlikely future loss, you might not be very good at wagering!

 

[excreationist]

I think eternal hell outweighs just about any other kind of suffering... assuming it is real or somewhat likely...

If someone can manipulate you into a quite certain short term loss by threatening you with a terrifying but deeply unlikely future loss, you might not be very good at wagering!

I think if you're dealing with infinities (eternities) and the probability is significantly above zero then the consequences of paradise/hell could also involve infinities - or at least be very important..... Maybe it's similar to the concept of buying insurance.... BTW in the case of insurance the company is making a profit so in a way it's better to save the money and pay it out to the alternate versions of you yourself....

 

[excreationist]

Apparently Hinduism can also involve eternal hell but: (post #21)

Being God/godlike and forgetting about it...

This might be a New Age idea.... and maybe involved in some religions - particularly eastern ones.... is there a technical term for this? I wanted to explore this ancient concept... It is basically saying that a god (or a god-like being) exists - and it is you - but you forgot it.... (though...

iidb.org

I do note that he [Madhvacharya] does say that those souls in this Eternal Hell want to be there, are sadomasochists, are there of their own choosing, so it is not as harsh as it might appear to be at first glance. Not nearly as harsh as the Christian Hell. Presumably, they could even leave if they decide they wanted to leave. It would take a lot more knowledge of his ideas than I have to ascertain whether or not that is true.