NFL team owner Robert Kraft was swept up in a bust of a sex-trafficking day spa

[Toni]

If they were truly trafficked against their will they would go to the police, the passport wouldn't matter. Thus they must consider the mistreatment they get in the brothel superior to going home--illegals, not trafficked.

Sure

Hey boss slaver! You took my passport and your are prostituting me out against my will, so I need the day off to pop down to the local police station and file a criminal complaint against you. OkeeDokee?

Umm ... excuse me? That’s Mister Boss Slaver. You’re not in a first name basis with him.

Just his penis.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Which do you think more closely reflects the reality of the massage parlors in the Kraft case?

As a guess, I would guess trafficking. But what I would not do is presume it. I would want more evidence. Innocent until proven guilty.

 

[Toni]

Which do you think more closely reflects the reality of the massage parlors in the Kraft case?

As a guess, I would guess trafficking. But what I would not do is presume it. I would want more evidence. Innocent until proven guilty.

In a court room, sure. But this is just a forum.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Which do you think more closely reflects the reality of the massage parlors in the Kraft case?

As a guess, I would guess trafficking. But what I would not do is presume it. I would want more evidence. Innocent until proven guilty.

In a court room, sure. But this is just a forum.

I still won't rush to judgment. I like to give the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Why would you give them the benefit of the doubt? Given the state that the women were kept in, it seems like an odd thing to offer them.

It's like seeing a guy under a restraining order standing over his wife's corpse with a bloody knife in his hand and thinking "Well, this looks like the end result of a series of zany misunderstandings".

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

In a court room, sure. But this is just a forum.

I still won't rush to judgment. I like to give the benefit of the doubt.

Reasonable doubt or theoretical doubt?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Wait: I'm told over and over and over that presumably American prostitutes cannot report crimes against them such as rape and assault and robbery but you are trying to tell me that it is zero problem for a non-English proficient prostitute who is working in the US and who does not have access to her own passport, cannot dictate her own working conditions, cannot leave the premises without an escort and who is moved from place to place without being consulted is simply free to get up and go down to the nearest precinct and report that she's a victim of trafficking/being held as a sex slave?

Rape will usually be figured to be a dispute about payment. Assault and robbery--they're going to admit to what they were doing when they were victims?

Someone forced into it is in a different situation entirely. The police will listen.

That's not necessary. It doesn't matter if their life is as bad or worse in their home country. What matters is how they are being treated on US soil.

It's relevant to looking at whether they would do so willingly. If being "forced" here is better than their situation at home they're not going to choose to report it and get sent home--thus they are doing it voluntarily.

Trafficking happens with Americans, too. Usually very young girls who are runaways. I suspect also young boys but I have read much less about that. Girls are often first befriended, then perhaps seduced, offered protection, and if they 'act up,' the threats begin. Against them, sometimes against family back home. They have little access to money, little freedom of movement. Little control over any aspect of their lives. They are moved from place to place: trafficked.

Agreed--runways being forced into prostitution is a real issue and one I think prostitution licenses would help with.

How?

I would really like to be convinced of that. But from what I have read and heard and seen, legal prostitution does not lessen the demand for illegal prostitution. And illegal prostitution is rife with unwilling runaways or adults who entered the profession when they were forced into the life as under age runaways and no longer see other options for themselves.

You're reading garbage by those who aren't willing to accept legal prostitution.

The reason licenses are a big help is that it lets the police focus on the illegal stuff. Also, if you require the customer to see if they are licensed you can then attach substantial penalties for those who don't check. (Put a QR code on the license, when scanned it comes up with a photo and description of the person to whom the license is issued. Simple, quick check that doesn't reveal their identity and is very hard to beat.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If they were truly trafficked against their will they would go to the police, the passport wouldn't matter. Thus they must consider the mistreatment they get in the brothel superior to going home--illegals, not trafficked.

Sure

Hey boss slaver! You took my passport and your are prostituting me out against my will, so I need the day off to pop down to the local police station and file a criminal complaint against you. OkeeDokee?

Simply walk out with a customer. Think they're going to use force to stop them and risk the customer reporting it as a kidnapping?

 

[Toni]

If they were truly trafficked against their will they would go to the police, the passport wouldn't matter. Thus they must consider the mistreatment they get in the brothel superior to going home--illegals, not trafficked.

Sure

Hey boss slaver! You took my passport and your are prostituting me out against my will, so I need the day off to pop down to the local police station and file a criminal complaint against you. OkeeDokee?

Simply walk out with a customer. Think they're going to use force to stop them and risk the customer reporting it as a kidnapping?

I sure don’t think a customer is likely to do a damn thing to help a sex slave. For one thing, that would mean recognizing that the person was A) a person and B) might not be there entirely of their own free will and c) that would imply that the customer may have done something bad. Most people really prefer to think well of themselves.

 

[laughing dog]

If they were truly trafficked against their will they would go to the police, the passport wouldn't matter. Thus they must consider the mistreatment they get in the brothel superior to going home--illegals, not trafficked.

Sure

Hey boss slaver! You took my passport and your are prostituting me out against my will, so I need the day off to pop down to the local police station and file a criminal complaint against you. OkeeDokee?

Simply walk out with a customer. Think they're going to use force to stop them and risk the customer reporting it as a kidnapping?

You assume
1) the use of force would be noticed by a customer, and
2) that would customer go to the police and admit he/she was breaking the law to report that use of force.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

If they were truly trafficked against their will they would go to the police, the passport wouldn't matter. Thus they must consider the mistreatment they get in the brothel superior to going home--illegals, not trafficked.

Sure

Hey boss slaver! You took my passport and your are prostituting me out against my will, so I need the day off to pop down to the local police station and file a criminal complaint against you. OkeeDokee?

Simply walk out with a customer. Think they're going to use force to stop them and risk the customer reporting it as a kidnapping?

Are you fucking serious? Did you mean this as a joke post or do you think the customers would actually do that as opposed to getting as far away from the situation as quickly as possible?

Even if they were part of the small subset of people who both ignore the obvious fact that they’re probably raping a second slave and want to help those slaves when it’s pointed out to them, your scenario is a woman saying to them “You’ve just come alone to this out of the way place which I have just told you is being run by an international gang of criminals. How about you help me piss them off and cost them a bunch of money”. Does that sound like a viable basis of a plan to you?

 

[RavenSky]

If they were truly trafficked against their will they would go to the police, the passport wouldn't matter. Thus they must consider the mistreatment they get in the brothel superior to going home--illegals, not trafficked.

Sure

Hey boss slaver! You took my passport and your are prostituting me out against my will, so I need the day off to pop down to the local police station and file a criminal complaint against you. OkeeDokee?

Simply walk out with a customer. Think they're going to use force to stop them and risk the customer reporting it as a kidnapping?

Sure. And I'm sure you are speaking from your years of experience as a trafficked sex slave?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

In a court room, sure. But this is just a forum.

I still won't rush to judgment. I like to give the benefit of the doubt.

Reasonable doubt or theoretical doubt?

Reasonable doubt. And it is.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

It's relevant to looking at whether they would do so willingly. If being "forced" here is better than their situation at home they're not going to choose to report it and get sent home--thus they are doing it voluntarily.

Um, no. That's like saying if you hand your wallet over to a robber on the street, you did so voluntarily, because it is better than being shot dead. He's still a robber. He still took that wallet against your will. And if the girl is there unwillingly, the living conditions back where she came from are not relevant.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I sure don’t think a customer is likely to do a damn thing to help a sex slave. For one thing, that would mean recognizing that the person was A) a person and B) might not be there entirely of their own free will and c) that would imply that the customer may have done something bad. Most people really prefer to think well of themselves.

You appear to have a very low opinion of guys who go for massages. Or who go for sex with who they thought were willing sex workers, until they suspect otherwise. You then really think none of them are going to care or help if they can? Really? They need not walk out with her in front of everyone btw. They could simply tip off the police. Where prostitution is legal, they can do that more easily of course.

would imply that the customer may have done something bad.

Quite the opposite. Why would the person who helped free a sex slave think of it as bad? I think they would think quite well of themselves. I would think well of them too. Especially with them not knowing anything was amiss when they went in there for a massage.

 

[Toni]

I sure don’t think a customer is likely to do a damn thing to help a sex slave. For one thing, that would mean recognizing that the person was A) a person and B) might not be there entirely of their own free will and c) that would imply that the customer may have done something bad. Most people really prefer to think well of themselves.

You appear to have a very low opinion of guys who go for massages. Or who go for sex with who they thought were willing sex workers, until they suspect otherwise. You then really think none of them are going to care or help if they can? Really? They need not walk out with her in front of everyone btw. They could simply tip off the police. Where prostitution is legal, they can do that more easily of course.

would imply that the customer may have done something bad.

Quite the opposite. Why would the person who helped free a sex slave think of it as bad? I think they would think quite well of themselves. I would think well of them too. Especially with them not knowing anything was amiss when they went in there for a massage.

In FL, sex work is not legal.

And no, I do not think that legalization would increase the likelihood of customers helping women they hire for sex. I also don’t think that legalization teases illegal prostitution and can increase demand.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

And no, I do not think that legalization would increase the likelihood of customers helping women they hire for sex. I also don’t think that legalization teases illegal prostitution and can increase demand.

Ya, even if it were legal, a prostitute bringing legal issues to a client would most likely result in the client running the fuck off as quickly as possible so that he's not in the middle of whatever the hell that was anymore and then his never thinking of it again. Anything else would probably require his explaining to someone why he was with a prostitute and even if there's no potential legal problems with that, I doubt it's a conversation many would be interested in having.

 

[ZiprHead]

And no, I do not think that legalization would increase the likelihood of customers helping women they hire for sex. I also don’t think that legalization teases illegal prostitution and can increase demand.

Ya, even if it were legal, a prostitute bringing legal issues to a client would most likely result in the client running the fuck off as quickly as possible so that he's not in the middle of whatever the hell that was anymore and then his never thinking of it again. Anything else would probably require his explaining to someone why he was with a prostitute and even if there's no potential legal problems with that, I doubt it's a conversation many would be interested in having.

Not to mention the guys using prostitutes or tug-and-rubs are generally quite ashamed about it when it becomes known. They want to keep it as secret as possible.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Not to mention the guys using prostitutes or tug-and-rubs are generally quite ashamed about it when it becomes known. They want to keep it as secret as possible.

Right, it's like if a shooting happens during a Cleveland Browns game. Sure, there's probably a few thousand witnesses, but how many of those are going to be willing to publicly testify that they were at a Cleveland Browns game?

 

[ZiprHead]

Not to mention the guys using prostitutes or tug-and-rubs are generally quite ashamed about it when it becomes known. They want to keep it as secret as possible.

Right, it's like if a shooting happens during a Cleveland Browns game. Sure, there's probably a few thousand witnesses, but how many of those are going to be willing to publicly testify that they were at a Cleveland Browns game?

Don't know I I'd say it's that far into the embarrassment department.