NFL team owner Robert Kraft was swept up in a bust of a sex-trafficking day spa

[Jolly_Penguin]

Also, since Toni raised the topic of boys in prostitution, how about trans people?

Trans people in prostitution always get ignored in these conversations. But they are more at risk than maybe any other group of sex workers, when sex work is illegal. There is no protection for them on the streets. They are targeted for being different and they can't report it or complain to the police, because they are engaged in an illegal trade.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-new-law-that-puts-transgender-sex-workers-in-danger

The National Center for Transgender Equality was one of the many advocacy organizations that publicly opposed the SESTA/FOSTA legislation.

When asked about the organization’s opposition to SESTA, Harper Jean Tobin, NCTE’s director of policy, cited multiple reasons, one being the sheer number of trans people who have engaged in sex work.

According to Tobin, a 2015 national survey showed that one in five trans adults participated in “some kind of underground economic activity” for income at some point in their lives; “for most of them, that was trading sex.” Transgender women of color in particular reported engaging in sex work at “quite high levels.”

As Tobin noted, trans sex workers “face a great deal of violence, and it’s increased by not being able to readily access health and social services, by not being readily able to report crimes against them… Transgender people have tremendous negative experiences with the criminal justice system and face tremendous levels of violent victimization just in general.”

NCTE is concerned that SESTA/FOSTA will further endanger transgender people who trade sex, since working on the street is an even riskier proposition for this community.

 

[Toni]

Legalized prostitution seems to normalize the idea that girls are for sale. And boys, too, although that is always ignored here. That one can throw some money down and get your jollies off with the sex worker assuming all the risk. It normalizes the notion that women and girls can brushed and abused and discarded. That the only thing that matters is easy access to the parts desired.

OK, but illegal prostitution also seems to normalize the idea that they're for sale, given how normal the sale of them is in places where prostitution is illegal. It just makes the sale of them far more dangerous and risky for the people involved. Legalization also isn't some sort of end point where the industry is now good, it's a starting point from where you can actually begin to take steps to protect the workers and seems to clearly be the best of what may all just be a choice amongst bad options.

..... waiting to see if Toni addresses this point this time.

There is absolutely nothing stopping society from addressing the point now.

Everybody deserves to be treated with dignity and respect, to be free from violence or the threat of violence.

Legalizing prostitution doesn't magically--or practically-- extend to prostitutes these rights which, they actually have right now but which rights are now ignored and abused.

Nothing stops sex workers from getting frequent screens for STIs now. Nothing about legalization compels clients to get screened prior to sexual contact. Without that, you can make all the pretty little noises you like about this being for the protection of the prostitutes but all that is is hypocritical noise.

And I've heard about enough of that.

 

[Toni]

Also, since Toni raised the topic of boys in prostitution, how about trans people?

Trans people in prostitution always get ignored in these conversations. But they are more at risk than maybe any other group of sex workers, when sex work is illegal. There is no protection for them on the streets. They are targeted for being different and they can't report it or complain to the police, because they are engaged in an illegal trade.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-new-law-that-puts-transgender-sex-workers-in-danger

The National Center for Transgender Equality was one of the many advocacy organizations that publicly opposed the SESTA/FOSTA legislation.

When asked about the organization’s opposition to SESTA, Harper Jean Tobin, NCTE’s director of policy, cited multiple reasons, one being the sheer number of trans people who have engaged in sex work.

According to Tobin, a 2015 national survey showed that one in five trans adults participated in “some kind of underground economic activity” for income at some point in their lives; “for most of them, that was trading sex.” Transgender women of color in particular reported engaging in sex work at “quite high levels.”

As Tobin noted, trans sex workers “face a great deal of violence, and it’s increased by not being able to readily access health and social services, by not being readily able to report crimes against them… Transgender people have tremendous negative experiences with the criminal justice system and face tremendous levels of violent victimization just in general.”

NCTE is concerned that SESTA/FOSTA will further endanger transgender people who trade sex, since working on the street is an even riskier proposition for this community.

Why will legalization remove the negative experiences trans people have with the criminal justice system or remove or even mitigate the violence? Beating someone is already illegal, even if we don't like that person. So is raping them, murdering them, assaulting them, robbing them.

Why doesn't the law enforcement system address these wrongs for all people now? Why would a law change make law enforcement decide that now it's ok to arrest people who commit crimes against trans people?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

There is absolutely nothing stopping society from addressing the point now.

Yeah. By legalizing and regulating. Its awfully hard to regulate when the industry is illegal. Don't you think? You don't suggest we'd stop garment sweat shop slaving by shutting down the entire garment industry, right? Instead we enact labour, health and safety regulations and do inspections. Why do you oppose this for the sex industry?

Everybody deserves to be treated with dignity and respect, to be free from violence or the threat of violence.

You keep repeating that and nobody has disputed it. We all agree on that. Your repeating it isn't setting you aside or making banning all prostitution any more just.

Legalizing prostitution doesn't magically--or practically-- extend to prostitutes these rights which, they actually have right now but which rights are now ignored and abused.

It gives them them rights and encourages them to act on them, as they don't where their job is illegal. And it requires and encourages protections that don't exist for them where their job is illegal.

Nothing stops sex workers from getting frequent screens for STIs now.

But are they encouraged to in order to work in a better and legal work environment?

Nothing about legalization compels clients to get screened prior to sexual contact. Without that, you can make all the pretty little noises you like about this being for the protection of the prostitutes but all that is is hypocritical noise.

It indeed would not just be about protecting prostitutes. It would be about protecting everyone in society. Don't you care about that?

We went over this before. Getting 1 person tested and keeping them from spreading a disease helps everyone they would have had sex with, and who their sex partners who caught it from them would have sex with. You keep skipping by that rather important point. We also mentioned condoms and requiring their use in legal brothels. Loren gave data on this in Nevada and the effect it had. It did make a difference. Is that not a good thing? Because johns aren't compelled to get tested directly, that makes all this added protection for society worthless to you?

And I've heard about enough of that.

I can see that you don't want to consider the above. I don't understand why. Your goal is to protect people from disease, abuse and slavery, isn't it?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Also, since Toni raised the topic of boys in prostitution, how about trans people?

Trans people in prostitution always get ignored in these conversations. But they are more at risk than maybe any other group of sex workers, when sex work is illegal. There is no protection for them on the streets. They are targeted for being different and they can't report it or complain to the police, because they are engaged in an illegal trade.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-new-law-that-puts-transgender-sex-workers-in-danger

The National Center for Transgender Equality was one of the many advocacy organizations that publicly opposed the SESTA/FOSTA legislation.

When asked about the organization’s opposition to SESTA, Harper Jean Tobin, NCTE’s director of policy, cited multiple reasons, one being the sheer number of trans people who have engaged in sex work.

According to Tobin, a 2015 national survey showed that one in five trans adults participated in “some kind of underground economic activity” for income at some point in their lives; “for most of them, that was trading sex.” Transgender women of color in particular reported engaging in sex work at “quite high levels.”

As Tobin noted, trans sex workers “face a great deal of violence, and it’s increased by not being able to readily access health and social services, by not being readily able to report crimes against them… Transgender people have tremendous negative experiences with the criminal justice system and face tremendous levels of violent victimization just in general.”

NCTE is concerned that SESTA/FOSTA will further endanger transgender people who trade sex, since working on the street is an even riskier proposition for this community.

Why will legalization remove the negative experiences trans people have with the criminal justice system or remove or even mitigate the violence? Beating someone is already illegal, even if we don't like that person. So is raping them, murdering them, assaulting them, robbing them.

Its right there in the bolded. When you make their job illegal, you strongly discourage them from reporting anything to the police. Does it not phase you at all that the National Centre for Transgender Equality took the position that they did? You do care about trans people, right? Will you listen to them? And will you listen to other sex workers? Or will you marginalize them and ignore what they have to say?

 

[laughing dog]

Why will legalization remove the negative experiences trans people have with the criminal justice system or remove or even mitigate the violence? Beating someone is already illegal, even if we don't like that person. So is raping them, murdering them, assaulting them, robbing them.

Its right there in the bolded. When you make their job illegal, you strongly discourage them from reporting anything to the police.

THe bolded part says "and it’s increased by not being able to readily access health and social services, by not being readily able to report crimes against them…'. It does not tie that lack of ready ability to report crimes to the illegality of prostitution.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Its right there in the bolded. When you make their job illegal, you strongly discourage them from reporting anything to the police. Does it not phase you at all that the National Centre for Transgender Equality took the position that they did? You do care about trans people, right? Will you listen to them? And will you listen to other sex workers? Or will you marginalize them and ignore what they have to say?

And their point goes beyond trans people. It applies to all marginalized and vulnerable people who engage in the sex industry. Brand them criminals, discourage them from going to the police, and you've removed protection that they especially need.
Its a point you never hear made in these discussions. Do you think a black hooker is going to report a john who is awfully racist to her, when she has to admit she's a criminalized hooker to do so? How about gay prostitutes who get beaten up because they are gay? Are they going to report it to the possibly homophobic police, and risk arrest for being criminalized prostitutes? Unlikely.

 

[RavenSky]

If you get to falsely tell me what I think, then I can do the same to you.

We can all play that game. Its a stupid game that gets us nowhere. ANd it didn't start here with Derec, but with Toni. Now, we add you, and soon it will be the new fashionable thing to do

Derec is telling falsehoods about me. He can either retract and apologise, or not. You can butt out.

 

[Toni]

If you get to falsely tell me what I think, then I can do the same to you.

We can all play that game. Its a stupid game that gets us nowhere. ANd it didn't start here with Derec, but with Toni. Now, we add you, and soon it will be the new fashionable thing to do

Derec is telling falsehoods about me. He can either retract and apologise, or not. You can butt out.

Didn't start with me, either. Jolly just isn't very jolly unless he's making shit up about someone. In defense of Derec, of course.

- - - Updated - - -

Why will legalization remove the negative experiences trans people have with the criminal justice system or remove or even mitigate the violence? Beating someone is already illegal, even if we don't like that person. So is raping them, murdering them, assaulting them, robbing them.

Its right there in the bolded. When you make their job illegal, you strongly discourage them from reporting anything to the police. Does it not phase you at all that the National Centre for Transgender Equality took the position that they did? You do care about trans people, right? Will you listen to them? And will you listen to other sex workers? Or will you marginalize them and ignore what they have to say?

Does it not phase you at all that prostitutes who have worked under legal systems oppose legalization?

I found that an eye opener--not at all what I expected.

 

[laughing dog]

Its a point you never hear made in these discussions. Do you think a black hooker is going to report a john who is awfully racist to her, when she has to admit she's a criminalized hooker to do so?

Report what to who? Acting like a racist is not against the law?

How about gay prostitutes who get beaten up because they are gay? Are they going to report it to the possibly homophobic police, and risk arrest for being criminalized prostitutes? Unlikely.

If the police are possibly homophobic, it won't matter - the problem is the police.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The problem is we have no indication they were not free to consent.

Yes, we do. They had no days off, no transportation, and stayed at the site 24/7.

Who has made this claim?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

wHy is it that in these threads about Prostitution, we always see highly emotional cries to shut down prostitution altogether in an attempt to shut down human trafficking, but we pretty much never hear about actual efforts to shut down human trafficking. We almost never hear anything about pimps, pushers, recruiters, and corrupt police that work with them. Its always focus on the john.

Agreed. I think it's a misguided attempt to make it too dangerous for people to engage in--the same tactics Christians like to do with sex. Legalize sex-for-pay, use the police resources freed up to go after the traffickers--and apply some serious punishment to the ones that are caught. (In my book forcing someone to engage in prostitution is rape. It doesn't matter it's someone else's dick.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The Patriots owner probably watched some porn, got Horney, and looked for an outlet that is commonly known. If he had looked around he could have found a discrete upscale masseuse and this would have never happened.



There have been systematic efforts in Seattle to close down the massage parlors.

Around here at least upscale generally means legit. Too much to lose if they get shut down.

And if you're talking outcall, those people keep records and I can easily see someone very rich not wanting their identity known. Too much blackmail risk, or just bad luck. (Look at the high profile figures brought down when someone's records were exposed.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's obvious that at least one person on this thread is only going to believe what he wants, regardless of the evidence. Nobody said that because a woman is Chinese that she must be a sex slave. Nobody said that all women who engage in sex work are forced to do it. But, there is plenty of evidence that sex trafficking does exist and that it's a huge problem in the US. I'm having a very difficult time trying to understand why anyone would come to any different conclusion. These women said they were promised legitimate jobs if they came to the US, but then they were forced to do sex work. Why is that so difficult to believe? Once again, women are not taken at their word, while the men who have acted like monsters are believed. Nobody said that all men are monsters, but the men that forced these women into doing sex work could certainly be labeled as monsters by the women who mistreated them.

It's obvious that there are times when people sadly cling to what they want to believe rather than considering the evidence given to them.

It certainly is a problem. How big a problem I don't think we know--the anti-prostitution forces have so muddied the waters by treating all women who have relocated as victims that we don't have any decent data on how many really are victims.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Here's what I find the most striking in the NY Times article

First, a health inspector spotted several suitcases. Then she noticed an unusual stash of clothing, food and bedding. A young woman who was supposed to be a massage therapist spoke little English and seemed unusually nervous.

Note how this all got found out. A health inspector was there. That's because this was posing (or possibly was) a legitimate massage parlour.

Note, that there are no health inspectors to notice such things in the more underground illegal brothels that exist around town.

Driving prostitution underground makes it easier, not harder, for traffickers to use and abuse victims.

Suitcases, little English and nervous suggest to me illegals. That's not enough to prove trafficking. It's not exactly unusual for Chinese to come here on a tourist visa, make money under the table and go home. Since prostitution is generally illegal anyway it would seem to me a profession well suited to such behavior. They don't want to stay too long for fear of being denied entry, renting an apartment would be difficult and they would fear the records it would leave.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You really believe that there is no illegal prostitution in Nevada? In Toronto? In New Zealand?

I can't address Toronto and New Zealand. Here the situation is mixed. State law prohibits it in the two resort areas (they set a population limit and periodically adjust it so it's only prohibited in those two counties) and a local decision everywhere else. Of course we have plenty of illegal prostitution in the resort areas, the only proper test is where it's legal. I believe the most populous area in Nevada with operating brothels (although I'm not sure of the current situation--the owner of several brothels died not too long ago) is the county next door. I can't find any data on prostitution arrests there which says to me there aren't many.

Legalized prostitution seems to normalize the idea that girls are for sale. And boys, too, although that is always ignored here. That one can throw some money down and get your jollies off with the sex worker assuming all the risk. It normalizes the notion that women and girls can brushed and abused and discarded. That the only thing that matters is easy access to the parts desired.

You're in effect saying that all sex work is abuse. Low skill work is generally not very pleasant, if a woman finds a bit of time on her back preferable to a day of labor I see no reason I should tell her that she can't make that choice.

Or take an even finer line: Massage is legal. Why is it illegal to massage that one little bit? How is a woman harmed by massaging that bit?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, if they run a business in a way that’s indistinguishable from how human traffickers run their businesses, it’s their own damn fault when they get mistaken for human traffickers.

An analogy to that would be ... well ... nothing ... because that’s not a thing that actually happens.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As I wrote in the other thread, a serious problem with the sex industry that gets no attention whatsoever is that many sex workers get used to the big money, don't stay in school, and don't gain any work experience they can put on their resumes or use after they stop being sex workers. They get used to an expensive lifestyle. Drugs may be part of this but often are not; instead things like brand name clothes and expensive handbags and jewelry and always eating out etc are. Then they age or burn out and hit a figurative brick wall when they stop working in the industry. They get a minimum wage job (if they are lucky), and take a huge drop in how they are living. That can seriously screw up their heads, and I think there should be some counseling available for them.

I have wondered if the government should perhaps implement a mandatory retirement savings system for such professions (all the high flying/quick ageout fields. Models, many athletes etc.) You have to save say 30-40% of your income above some threshold in a special type of account. You can't touch the money until you retire from the field and then you can take no more in a year than what would deplete it by your life expectancy--think of the IRA minimum withdrawal requirements but it would be a maximum instead. You can use the money in the account to pay the taxes it caused, however.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

As I wrote in the other thread, a serious problem with the sex industry that gets no attention whatsoever is that many sex workers get used to the big money, don't stay in school, and don't gain any work experience they can put on their resumes or use after they stop being sex workers. They get used to an expensive lifestyle. Drugs may be part of this but often are not; instead things like brand name clothes and expensive handbags and jewelry and always eating out etc are. Then they age or burn out and hit a figurative brick wall when they stop working in the industry. They get a minimum wage job (if they are lucky), and take a huge drop in how they are living. That can seriously screw up their heads, and I think there should be some counseling available for them.

I have wondered if the government should perhaps implement a mandatory retirement savings system for such professions (all the high flying/quick ageout fields. Models, many athletes etc.) You have to save say 30-40% of your income above some threshold in a special type of account. You can't touch the money until you retire from the field and then you can take no more in a year than what would deplete it by your life expectancy--think of the IRA minimum withdrawal requirements but it would be a maximum instead. You can use the money in the account to pay the taxes it caused, however.

It is an interesting idea, but of course a moot point regarding prostitutes so long as prostitution is illegal. I have seen what I described above happen to multiple women. They were never traficked. They were never raped. But they sure did get messed up in the end.

 

[laughing dog]

The problem is we have no indication they were not free to consent.

Yes, we do. They had no days off, no transportation, and stayed at the site 24/7.

Who has made this claim?

See post 63 in this thread for a link.