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My Hope is that Scotland will vote for Independence

Any change in governance, especially the change of becoming independent involves breaking a whole flock of relations and obligations which are always hard to evaluate before the fact. I lived for 25 years in the largest county in the United States...San Bernardino Country. It is a huge piece of real estate and contained more than a dozen military installations. The county was lightly populated and its representative in congress was shared with part of another county. There were all sorts of attempts to break up this county because there were many communities that were treated as non existent who wanted local control, yet they were not large enough to be cities. We were always looking at votes on new county proposals. The county was famous for many forms of corruption. None of these proposals ever made it. The U.S. military weighed in with its large numbers (proportionally) of military employees and they never stood a chance.

Scotland is a much larger animal and seems to have many of the same problems including corrupt entanglements. In principle, I always felt that you can't call a system democratic when there are voters who really never can have any effect on the leadership of their political unit. If Scotland wants to try, I think they can at least peel off the monarchy and the corrupt parliament...not that their new one would be any less corrupt. It is an interesting proposition. If not now, at some point in the future the remainder of the British empire will finally get peeled away. It is just a matter of time.
 
Max: It is not in dispute that spending in Scotland exceeds revenue -- the UK is running a budget deficit -- nor that it is true that the ratio of spending to revenue is above the UK mean, but this is the case for all parts of the UK apart from the SE of England and Scotland is in a better position that most of England.
Without getting buried in numbers quibbling it seems we agree a qualitative proposition, that Scotland, like many other regions are moochers, but mooch significantly less than the bigger moochers in Northern Ireland and Wales. Given the eye popping fact that "One pound in every five earned by Londoners is used to fund the rest of the country..." I suppose the wealth makers in the SE should count their blessings (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...-pound-earned-capital-funds-rest-country.html).

I find it objectionable for you to label Scots as "degenerate", "welfare dependant" (unemployment rates and per capita welfare spending in Scotland are lower than the UK average) and "free loaders". Hidden behind the ellipsis in your second quote is the statement that, under one method of accounting for oil and gas revenues, Scotland becomes a net "subsidiser" of the rest of the UK. By your logic at the stroke of an accountant's pen the rest of the UK becomes a den of degenerate loafers whilst Scotland becomes a nation of capitalist supermen.
Under any method of accounting Scotland "accounts for 8.4% of the UK population, 8.3% of the UK's total output and 8.3% of the UK's non-oil tax revenues - but 9.2% of total UK public spending." In other words, the Scots create less than they consume, unless one ascribes their closer geographic proximity to the North sea as of their economic creation.

As the remainder of the UK is not going to surrender its claims on the North Sea oil (nor should they) any reasonable or fair allocation (such as on a per person population basis) is going to force Scotland to deal with its attraction to left of center aspirations from other's pocketbook, and give greater political latitude for England to move right.

Mind you, if the majority in Wales or Northern Ireland wanted to cease the burden of suckling on the mother's teat, Whitehall ought to pull out the champagne bottles and send a single sentence note asking "How can we assist?"

Perhaps instead we can put the insulting stereotypes aside and look at what has actually been happening in Scotland in recent years. The rise of Scottish nationalism has been fuelled by the self-inflicted collapse of the Conservatives in Scotland and the ineffectiveness and corruption of Scottish Labour which stands in contrast to the SNP government in Holyrood which has gone about its business with confidence and competence. Nationalists have managed to frame the debate in terms of autonomy and democracy, whereas some unionists have misjudged their response with the sort of paternalistic attitude exemplified in your OP that refuses to acknowledge Scotland as an equal parter in the UK. The fact that the unionist parties have already been forced to concede greater autonomy means that the nationalists have already won regardless of the outcome of the vote on Thursday.

I see the issue as one of a conflict of visions between political/economic attitudes, while many others see it as only a debate about its practicality or of national identity.

To be honest, I don't pay much mind to "how" the government manages, because the REAL question is "what" the government does (or will do). For the politico "proceduralists" the current social/economic construction of the house of Scotland is an undisputed given so to them the only important question is how they select the party that gets to hang the same drapes.

And while I have a great deal of respect for nationalism I believe this also to be a tad misleading. The Scots already have plenty of cultural expression, and I find it less than convincing that they are an oppressed minority in the British Isles. Home rule will have advantages (especially on issues of immigration) but it won't change the underlying differences. Conservatives have always been a tiny fraction of Scottish representation, and until recently labor has been the overwhelmingly largest party. Sociological surveys which directly measure the underlying belief systems show that regardless of the tides of party fortune, the Scottish are significantly more redistribution and left. What party they elect to promote those views is beside the point.

Finally, as for all those who fear monger over pragmatic issues of currency and EU membership, I don't find those to be convincing or relevant. These considerations are always resolved in a democratic Europe, just as similar issues were resolved in the union of Germany or in the split of Czechoslovakia. Such arguments to be a red herring. Yes, there will be a difficult adjustment period and lots of new arrangements - but there is nothing in that precludes a new nation. Scotland would THEN face the only really IMPORTANT issue; what kind of economic, taxation, and social policies will be imposed? And how can Scotland pay for these bromides?

In short, the ONLY question to be asked is WHAT will they do with independence? To my mind they have a choice; become a free and independent state who ends its dependency and suffers a necessary economic maturation OR continue down the grievance path (with nationalism as a mask) of most dependent sub-cultures.

In separation BOTH nations will be the better for it.

PS: These two ads would convince me if I were a Scot. The first is far to logical and technical for an American, the second is admittedly a nationalist appeal - but wow, very powerful as propoganda:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n1LmR4UvVQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX6w_-QMH3E
 
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Under any method of accounting Scotland "accounts for 8.4% of the UK population, 8.3% of the UK's total output and 8.3% of the UK's non-oil tax revenues - but 9.2% of total UK public spending." In other words, the Scots create less than they consume, unless one ascribes their closer geographic proximity to the North sea as of their economic creation.
Really? How exactly do you work that out? I hope you're not confusing welfare with consumption. Because welfare is what people who can't afford to consume get. Nigh equal output with a higher welfare bill suggests the opposite of what you're trying to suggest with respect to the rest of the UK. It's a big part of why Scotland wants to break away.

The "makers vs takers" issue here is the same one afflicting all the anglo-saxon model economies after decades of neo-liberal policy : a huge, bloated parasitic financial sector sucking the life out of the productive parts of the economy. The UK's parasitic revenue sponge is in the South East of England and devastates the real economy every few decades.

(I should add that I'm English and hope Scotland doesn't secede)
 
Under any method of accounting Scotland "accounts for 8.4% of the UK population, 8.3% of the UK's total output and 8.3% of the UK's non-oil tax revenues - but 9.2% of total UK public spending." In other words, the Scots create less than they consume, unless one ascribes their closer geographic proximity to the North sea as of their economic creation.
Really? How exactly do you work that out? I hope you're not confusing welfare with consumption. Because welfare is what people who can't afford to consume get. Nigh equal output with a higher welfare bill suggests the opposite of what you're trying to suggest with respect to the rest of the UK. It's a big part of why Scotland wants to break away.

The "makers vs takers" issue here is the same one afflicting all the anglo-saxon model economies after decades of neo-liberal policy : a huge, bloated parasitic financial sector sucking the life out of the productive parts of the economy. The UK's parasitic revenue sponge is in the South East of England and devastates the real economy every few decades.

(I should add that I'm English and hope Scotland doesn't secede)

Well then, let why aren't you favoring the freedom of the Scots and Welsh from your iron-fisted and pitiless rule?
 
Anyone who frequently uses the word 'moocher' is either an inhabitant of 1930's or 1940's America, or an adherent of Ayn Rand.

Either way, it is physically impossible to have a rational discussion with them.

Nations all have differing tax regimes and differing welfare systems. If a nation splits into two parts, the two parts will diverge in their tax and welfare policies.

A quick look at the history of the world shows that high tax, high welfare nations don't, as a rule, collapse into ruin; such nations do not, in reality, see their brave and noble business leaders retreat to a hidden mountain utopia from which they can laugh maniacally at the corrupt fools crashing trains as their nation collapses around their ears.

Any argument that assumes they will as a premise is deeply flawed, and not worthy of serious debate.
 
Why doesn't max make these same wishes about mooching us states like, oh, pretty much every republican controlled one?
 
Really? How exactly do you work that out? I hope you're not confusing welfare with consumption. Because welfare is what people who can't afford to consume get. Nigh equal output with a higher welfare bill suggests the opposite of what you're trying to suggest with respect to the rest of the UK. It's a big part of why Scotland wants to break away.

The "makers vs takers" issue here is the same one afflicting all the anglo-saxon model economies after decades of neo-liberal policy : a huge, bloated parasitic financial sector sucking the life out of the productive parts of the economy. The UK's parasitic revenue sponge is in the South East of England and devastates the real economy every few decades.

(I should add that I'm English and hope Scotland doesn't secede)

Well then, let why aren't you favoring the freedom of the Scots and Welsh from your iron-fisted and pitiless rule?
Because without the Scots vote we'll likely get Tory government after Tory government. Eventually they will try to privatise the NHS. Then they'll start on universal education.. you'll be delighted to know

In fact scrub what I said earlier. I hope Scotland does secede, but with a new border formed by the M25.
 
Anyone who frequently uses the word 'moocher' is either an inhabitant of 1930's or 1940's America, or an adherent of Ayn Rand.

Either way, it is physically impossible to have a rational discussion with them.

Nations all have differing tax regimes and differing welfare systems. If a nation splits into two parts, the two parts will diverge in their tax and welfare policies.

A quick look at the history of the world shows that high tax, high welfare nations don't, as a rule, collapse into ruin; such nations do not, in reality, see their brave and noble business leaders retreat to a hidden mountain utopia from which they can laugh maniacally at the corrupt fools crashing trains as their nation collapses around their ears.

Any argument that assumes they will as a premise is deeply flawed, and not worthy of serious debate.
Oh I doubt anyone expected any rational discussion. But it's quite common for that sort to trot out factoids and graphs which appear at first glance to support to their case, but actually do not. I think in most cases they've simply swallowed them wholesale from Faux News, Libertarian websites etc. Some are worth calling out.
 
Without getting buried in numbers quibbling it seems we agree a qualitative proposition, that Scotland, like many other regions are moochers, but mooch significantly less than the bigger moochers in Northern Ireland and Wales. Given the eye popping fact that "One pound in every five earned by Londoners is used to fund the rest of the country..." I suppose the wealth makers in the SE should count their blessings (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...-pound-earned-capital-funds-rest-country.html).

Except that the truth is a bit more nuanced. The figures quoted in that article are tax take, not earnings. They include things like Stamp Duty, a tax on house purchases, and corporation tax, which are often revenues from non-Londoners. Similarly international earnings tend to be concentrated in London, increasing the tax take per unit of GDP without in any way implying that South-Easterners are somehow 'more productive' (if they were, GDP would be higher, and the ratio would actually fall.

Under any method of accounting Scotland "accounts for 8.4% of the UK population, 8.3% of the UK's total output and 8.3% of the UK's non-oil tax revenues - but 9.2% of total UK public spending." In other words, the Scots create less than they consume, unless one ascribes their closer geographic proximity to the North sea as of their economic creation.

Or one takes into account that Scotland has a lot of economic activity and people tied up in oil extraction and refining, and related industries. You're including those people, and the spending on them, but setting their economic contribution to zero, which is going to drag down the average a bit.

As the remainder of the UK is not going to surrender its claims on the North Sea oil (nor should they) any reasonable or fair allocation (such as on a per person population basis)

Ah.. that's wishful thinking in defiance of the facts. The same article you cited includes the Scotland to rUK split of oil - 83% to Scotland. That is based on the treaties governing oil extraction in the North Sea, where there is an agreed formula based on geographical proximity and length of North Sea coastline, and is not subject to negotiation. In any split, Scotland retains the vast bulk of the oil.

Mind you, if the majority in Wales or Northern Ireland wanted to cease the burden of suckling on the mother's teat, Whitehall ought to pull out the champagne bottles and send a single sentence note asking "How can we assist?"

Stop attributing income of companies based in Wales, with their operations in Wales, and most of their employees in Wales, but their HQ in London, to London.

The main reason for the dominance of the South-East is that a motivated person in wales, with a Welsh business idea and Welsh capital, will tend to move to the South-East to get the biggest pool of customers, skilled labour and contacts. There are more people there, and fewer mountains. It's the same effect that gets bright people from Nebraska or Montana to move to New York or LA.
 
SNP government in Holyrood which has gone about its business with confidence and competence.

Confidence? Perhaps the misplaced confidence of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Competence? Well, if their goal was to have to the longest list of missed targets and failed promises ever seen in any government post 1945 well then they're competent as heck.
 
Anyone who frequently uses the word 'moocher' is either an inhabitant of 1930's or 1940's America, or an adherent of Ayn Rand.

Either way, it is physically impossible to have a rational discussion with them.

Nations all have differing tax regimes and differing welfare systems. If a nation splits into two parts, the two parts will diverge in their tax and welfare policies.

A quick look at the history of the world shows that high tax, high welfare nations don't, as a rule, collapse into ruin; such nations do not, in reality, see their brave and noble business leaders retreat to a hidden mountain utopia from which they can laugh maniacally at the corrupt fools crashing trains as their nation collapses around their ears.

Any argument that assumes they will as a premise is deeply flawed, and not worthy of serious debate.
Oh come now, "moocher" is a far kinder and more endearing term than 'leech', 'parasite', 'cancer', 'beggar' , 'pan-handler', 'deadbeat', 'deadbeat', 'thief' or even 'sponger' (a nifty term I picked up from an Aussie). Mooching is the act of obtaining something without paying for it. And like many old words no longer in common use, it exactly captures what the "modern" lexicon fails to provide.

And a quick look at the history of the world shows that those who spend a whole lot more than they earn for a long period of time will, sooner or later, pay for it. Many Scots have the hopes of being a Denmark rather than a Greece, but intentions are not accomplishments. And, "any argument that assumes" that this reality can safely be ignored is "not worthy of serious debate" either, no?
 
Anyone who frequently uses the word 'moocher' is either an inhabitant of 1930's or 1940's America, or an adherent of Ayn Rand.

Either way, it is physically impossible to have a rational discussion with them.

Nations all have differing tax regimes and differing welfare systems. If a nation splits into two parts, the two parts will diverge in their tax and welfare policies.

A quick look at the history of the world shows that high tax, high welfare nations don't, as a rule, collapse into ruin; such nations do not, in reality, see their brave and noble business leaders retreat to a hidden mountain utopia from which they can laugh maniacally at the corrupt fools crashing trains as their nation collapses around their ears.

Any argument that assumes they will as a premise is deeply flawed, and not worthy of serious debate.
Oh come now, "moocher" is a far kinder and more endearing term than 'leech', 'parasite', 'cancer', 'beggar' , 'pan-handler', 'deadbeat', 'deadbeat', 'thief' or even 'sponger' (a nifty term I picked up from an Aussie). Mooching is the act of obtaining something without paying for it. And like many old words no longer in common use, it exactly captures what the "modern" lexicon fails to provide.

And a quick look at the history of the world shows that those who spend a whole lot more than they earn for a long period of time will, sooner or later, pay for it. Many Scots have the hopes of being a Denmark rather than a Greece, but intentions are not accomplishments. And, "any argument that assumes" that this reality can safely be ignored is "not worthy of serious debate" either, no?

So when will the leeching, mooching, sponging, panhandling, thieving, parasitic, cancerous, beggarly, deadbeat red states start paying for it?
 
Why doesn't max make these same wishes about mooching us states like, oh, pretty much every republican controlled one?

Exactly what might those wishes be, that they secede from the Republic? If so, I have exactly the same wish - there should be several countries out of this mess and a partial annexation to Mexico. Time for a cleanup. And let me be the first to toast Mexifornia as Mexico's official Sudetenland.
 
Oh come now, "moocher" is a far kinder and more endearing term than 'leech', 'parasite', 'cancer', 'beggar' , 'pan-handler', 'deadbeat', 'deadbeat', 'thief' or even 'sponger' (a nifty term I picked up from an Aussie). Mooching is the act of obtaining something without paying for it. And like many old words no longer in common use, it exactly captures what the "modern" lexicon fails to provide.

And a quick look at the history of the world shows that those who spend a whole lot more than they earn for a long period of time will, sooner or later, pay for it. Many Scots have the hopes of being a Denmark rather than a Greece, but intentions are not accomplishments. And, "any argument that assumes" that this reality can safely be ignored is "not worthy of serious debate" either, no?

So when will the leeching, mooching, sponging, panhandling, thieving, parasitic, cancerous, beggarly, deadbeat red states start paying for it?

As soon as they are given the option of home rule, and the ability to fund their welfare, education, water project, and land use as they see fit - just as the Scots demand. But then, the Blue masters will not allow such freedom, correct?
 
The Scots are almost everywhere you go – every corner on the planet, anything that's worth it, doesn't matter whether you're talking about banks in Hong Kong or rubber plantations in Malaya or the Canadian Pacific Railway, everywhere you go on the planet was built by Scots. And you go back to contemporary Scotland now, and they're this pathetic, feeble, passive economic swamp of dependency – parts of Glasgow, male life expectancy…they all sit around eating fried Mars bars all day, and life expectancy is getting down to West African rates in certain wards of Glasgow. So if you're someone who knows the Scottish diaspora, all that great stuff they did around the planet, and you go back to Scotland, you think, 'What the hell happened?' Well, what happened is government. What happened is welfare.

http://www.steynonline.com/6564/och-aye-the-now

Kinda like the Romans becoming Italians, what the hell happened?
 
The Scots are almost everywhere you go – every corner on the planet, anything that's worth it, doesn't matter whether you're talking about banks in Hong Kong or rubber plantations in Malaya or the Canadian Pacific Railway, everywhere you go on the planet was built by Scots. And you go back to contemporary Scotland now, and they're this pathetic, feeble, passive economic swamp of dependency – parts of Glasgow, male life expectancy…they all sit around eating fried Mars bars all day, and life expectancy is getting down to West African rates in certain wards of Glasgow. So if you're someone who knows the Scottish diaspora, all that great stuff they did around the planet, and you go back to Scotland, you think, 'What the hell happened?' Well, what happened is government. What happened is welfare.

http://www.steynonline.com/6564/och-aye-the-now

Kinda like the Romans becoming Italians, what the hell happened?
:rolleyesa: Patently not since more fortunate regions had the same welfare system and government.

So what happened to the Scots? Same as happened to the north of England, much of Wales, Norfolk, Northern Ireland... Neo-liberalism with its attendant financialisation and de-industrialisation at the same time as few hundred million near-slaves in the far east joined the labour market.

The Scots made the mistake of being makers rather than takers.
 
The Scots are almost everywhere you go – every corner on the planet, anything that's worth it, doesn't matter whether you're talking about banks in Hong Kong or rubber plantations in Malaya or the Canadian Pacific Railway, everywhere you go on the planet was built by Scots. And you go back to contemporary Scotland now, and they're this pathetic, feeble, passive economic swamp of dependency – parts of Glasgow, male life expectancy…they all sit around eating fried Mars bars all day, and life expectancy is getting down to West African rates in certain wards of Glasgow. So if you're someone who knows the Scottish diaspora, all that great stuff they did around the planet, and you go back to Scotland, you think, 'What the hell happened?' Well, what happened is government. What happened is welfare.

http://www.steynonline.com/6564/och-aye-the-now

Kinda like the Romans becoming Italians, what the hell happened?

lol, because the romans in their heyday were all about small government and libertarian principles.
 
So when will the leeching, mooching, sponging, panhandling, thieving, parasitic, cancerous, beggarly, deadbeat red states start paying for it?

As soon as they are given the option of home rule, and the ability to fund their welfare, education, water project, and land use as they see fit - just as the Scots demand. But then, the Blue masters will not allow such freedom, correct?

They have those options now, what's stopping them?
 
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