MCATs, Affirmative Action, and DEI, Oh My

[Toni]

Yep. It seems fair enough to those starting out with a 150 yard lead in a quarter mile race.

That's a lead somebody else had decades ago, in a different race. It is not moral to penalize people who sort of look alike for that head start long ago. Or, with Asian students, to penalize them 150 yards just because they are (on average) faster than others, when they don't even look like the runners who got a head start decades ago.

People who ‘sorta look like that’ still get a lot of breaks that those of different complexions do not get.

Asians are not being penalized re University/med school admissions for being Asian except to the extent that there still exist a lot of anti-non-Caucasian sentiment still survives. I’ve witnessed some pretty nasty stuff myself. I’ve written about friends who are Asian, who have spoken English their entire lives, who obtained degrees through PhDs from excellent US universities who still have students who complain about their ( nearly imperceptible) accents. Yeah, there is still plenty of anti-anything but Caucasian and preferably Christian or ‘Christian.’ And male.

I was raised by a white man; I married a white man , and raised white men. I’m surrounded by white men. Yeah, some have a harder time than others when they have to face that they are no longer automatically first in line for all good things.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Of course you think you're right and other people are dumb. That's more or less your MO.

Can you name any IIDB poster who doesn’t think they’re right and (at least some) other people are dumb?
Of course, excepting you and me … ?

Most other posters here recognize that other people are right sometimes, and that they themselves are wrong sometimes. Some few seem to lack that ability almost all the time.

Look in the mirror.

 

[Emily Lake]

If that's your interpretation, I suppose. I'm not in charge of your brain.

If you'd like the tone of our interactions to change, then consider changing your approach. I will adjust accordingly. Right now, we're well into tit-for-tat territory, and my willingness to tolerate your poor behavior and contempt has reached its limit.

If we are renegotiating our discursive relationship, I would like you to be honest about your flagrant violation of the forum's rules in this thread. The statement "this phrase is racist" is not a contentless personal attack. "I am writing this to express how much I hate you" most certainly is.

I don't hate you. I don't care enough about you to hate you. But I'm also not going to submit to your abuse and incivility any longer.

You get what you give.

 

[Toni]

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

Turns out that menopause is really lowering my tolerance for bullshit, and it's reduced my willingness to pretend to be nice to people who are consistently not nice to me to about two minutes. I'm no longer particularly interested in trying to maintain civility toward uncivil posters.

Neither menopause nor grief are excuses for attacking other people. Explanations? Yes. Excuse? No.

Written by someone who lost both parents in the same summer while ( checking the dates) being in perimenopause.

I am terribly sorry about your dad. I remember how hard it was to lose my dad on the heels of losing my mother, even though both had chronic fatal conditions, so we knew it was coming. But nothing ever really prepares you for it. I felt like I had cried an ocean’s worth of tears and then I went to an actual ocean and decided that my grief was only a tiny drop in that ocean.

It takes time. Yeah, sometimes anger does provide us with enough adrenaline to fuel us through days, weeks, months when grief threatens to overwhelm us. The first set of holidays were the hardest. I made some donations in their memory and held my family a little closer.

I still miss them, still long for just a little more time to talk, to hear their stories. To hear my dad laugh. Still feel the tears well up.

Ripping into other people, looking for grievances and faults where none is intended does not really lessen your grief but keeps you in that dark sad place where fury seems like the only way to fuel yourself enough to climb out.

For me, it helped more to do things that they enjoyed, to make food my mom made. To just touch the sleeve of a shirt my dad wore. To talk to them, silently in my head. To thank them. To tell them that I love them.

Of course you do you. But I don’t think attacking others won’t really get you what you need.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Yes Emily, we get it, you're the only one who's allowed to be annoyed at people who aren't nice to you, but when anyone else does it to you, they must be unjustified, and it must only be because they disagree with you or that they're too radical.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

Turns out that menopause is really lowering my tolerance for bullshit, and it's reduced my willingness to pretend to be nice to people who are consistently not nice to me to about two minutes. I'm no longer particularly interested in trying to maintain civility toward uncivil posters.

Neither menopause nor grief are excuses for attacking other people.

Wasn't she just recently saying her husband was being unforgiving about something or other? A bit odd way to react if they're against that sort of behavior.

 

[Toni]

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

Turns out that menopause is really lowering my tolerance for bullshit, and it's reduced my willingness to pretend to be nice to people who are consistently not nice to me to about two minutes. I'm no longer particularly interested in trying to maintain civility toward uncivil posters.

Neither menopause nor grief are excuses for attacking other people.

Wasn't she just recently saying her husband was being unforgiving about something or other? A bit odd way to react if they're against that sort of behavior.

Not sure. But this I know for certain: All of us go through rough times, terrible times even. Sometimes it does not make us the easiest people to be around. So I think it’s important to give a bit of grace to those we know are struggling. And if we are struggling, to do our best not to misdirect our anger and fears towards others.

Serious illness, death, losses of such magnitude are never fair. It is never ‘the right time.’ But they are inevitable.

That said, I do understand that it is ‘safer’ to unload blind fury at strangers on the internet. Or inanimate objects. Better that than hurting people we love or ourselves. Of course the hard line is actually harming others. That’s a huge no.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

Turns out that menopause is really lowering my tolerance for bullshit, and it's reduced my willingness to pretend to be nice to people who are consistently not nice to me to about two minutes. I'm no longer particularly interested in trying to maintain civility toward uncivil posters.

Neither menopause nor grief are excuses for attacking other people.

Wasn't she just recently saying her husband was being unforgiving about something or other? A bit odd way to react if they're against that sort of behavior.

Not sure. But this I know for certain: All of us go through rough times, terrible times even. Sometimes it does not make us the easiest people to be around. So I think it’s important to give a bit of grace to those we know are struggling. And if we are struggling, to do our best not to misdirect our anger and fears towards others.

Serious illness, death, losses of such magnitude are never fair. It is never ‘the right time.’ But they are inevitable.

That said, I do understand that it is ‘safer’ to unload blind fury at strangers on the internet. Or inanimate objects. Better that than hurting people we love or ourselves. Of course the hard line is actually harming others. That’s a huge no.

Counterpoint: part of the reason we have a Trump problem is people are giving people like him too much grace.

 

[Toni]

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

Turns out that menopause is really lowering my tolerance for bullshit, and it's reduced my willingness to pretend to be nice to people who are consistently not nice to me to about two minutes. I'm no longer particularly interested in trying to maintain civility toward uncivil posters.

Neither menopause nor grief are excuses for attacking other people.

Wasn't she just recently saying her husband was being unforgiving about something or other? A bit odd way to react if they're against that sort of behavior.

Not sure. But this I know for certain: All of us go through rough times, terrible times even. Sometimes it does not make us the easiest people to be around. So I think it’s important to give a bit of grace to those we know are struggling. And if we are struggling, to do our best not to misdirect our anger and fears towards others.

Serious illness, death, losses of such magnitude are never fair. It is never ‘the right time.’ But they are inevitable.

That said, I do understand that it is ‘safer’ to unload blind fury at strangers on the internet. Or inanimate objects. Better that than hurting people we love or ourselves. Of course the hard line is actually harming others. That’s a huge no.

Counterpoint: part of the reason we have a Trump problem is people are giving people like him too much grace.

I don’t believe that Emily is a Trumper. She’s more conservative than I am, especially along social issues.

While a whole bunch of Trumpists are hard core racists, not all of them are and I ^think^ ( and could be wrong) that he garnered a bunch of support from Right to Lifers whose single or single most important issue is the abortion issue.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

Turns out that menopause is really lowering my tolerance for bullshit, and it's reduced my willingness to pretend to be nice to people who are consistently not nice to me to about two minutes. I'm no longer particularly interested in trying to maintain civility toward uncivil posters.

Neither menopause nor grief are excuses for attacking other people.

Wasn't she just recently saying her husband was being unforgiving about something or other? A bit odd way to react if they're against that sort of behavior.

Not sure. But this I know for certain: All of us go through rough times, terrible times even. Sometimes it does not make us the easiest people to be around. So I think it’s important to give a bit of grace to those we know are struggling. And if we are struggling, to do our best not to misdirect our anger and fears towards others.

Serious illness, death, losses of such magnitude are never fair. It is never ‘the right time.’ But they are inevitable.

That said, I do understand that it is ‘safer’ to unload blind fury at strangers on the internet. Or inanimate objects. Better that than hurting people we love or ourselves. Of course the hard line is actually harming others. That’s a huge no.

Counterpoint: part of the reason we have a Trump problem is people are giving people like him too much grace.

I don’t believe that Emily is a Trumper.

Not a Trumper, but the way she's decided to act? Trump-like.

 

[Toni]

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

Turns out that menopause is really lowering my tolerance for bullshit, and it's reduced my willingness to pretend to be nice to people who are consistently not nice to me to about two minutes. I'm no longer particularly interested in trying to maintain civility toward uncivil posters.

Neither menopause nor grief are excuses for attacking other people.

Wasn't she just recently saying her husband was being unforgiving about something or other? A bit odd way to react if they're against that sort of behavior.

Not sure. But this I know for certain: All of us go through rough times, terrible times even. Sometimes it does not make us the easiest people to be around. So I think it’s important to give a bit of grace to those we know are struggling. And if we are struggling, to do our best not to misdirect our anger and fears towards others.

Serious illness, death, losses of such magnitude are never fair. It is never ‘the right time.’ But they are inevitable.

That said, I do understand that it is ‘safer’ to unload blind fury at strangers on the internet. Or inanimate objects. Better that than hurting people we love or ourselves. Of course the hard line is actually harming others. That’s a huge no.

Counterpoint: part of the reason we have a Trump problem is people are giving people like him too much grace.

I don’t believe that Emily is a Trumper.

Not a Trumper, but the way she's decided to act? Trump-like.

She’s mentioned losing her father quite recently. And menopause or perimenopause. It’s a combination I’m familiar with.

Grief sometimes comes out as anger because who isn’t angry at pain? And in our society, sadly enough, it is easier to express anger than to cry in pain.

But I think I’m done being rude and discussing another poster.

It feels like a lot of us have been going through some losses and other hard times lately. Surely we can all spare each other a bit of grace. Or try to.

 

[Emily Lake]

Of course you do you. But I don’t think attacking others won’t really get you what you need.

You seem to have missed a bit of my point here.

I almost never instigate the problem myself. And historically, I've been willing to put up with other people being complete assholes to me for quite a while before I stop being considerate and return in kind.

I'm no longer going to tolerate abuse and incivility. I will always start off nice, but I'll respond to nastiness in kind.

 

[Emily Lake]

Yes Emily, we get it, you're the only one who's allowed to be annoyed at people who aren't nice to you, but when anyone else does it to you, they must be unjustified, and it must only be because they disagree with you or that they're too radical.

People are free to disagree as much as they want. They aren't free to be a douchenozzle about it. If you want to be treated with respect by me, then don't treat me with contempt.

What I've observed over the past decade is that some people are quite aggressive in their interactions, and attack other pretty regularly. They're assholes to people they disagree with, and they are so full of their own righteousness that they feel justified in expressing contempt toward those they deem to be wrong. But those exact same people get entirely bent out of shape if I lose my temper with them (I'm not the only one, of course).

So the expectation up to now is that they can dish it out as much as they want, and I'm just supposed to always take it.

I've given my warning that this will no longer be the interaction. If they dish it out, I'm not going to meekly take it and try to be nice in response. I'm going to respond in kind.

It's entirely in your hands, GN. If you would like to have a civil interaction, then it's on you to be civil. I will reflect the behavior addressed to me.

 

[Emily Lake]

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

Turns out that menopause is really lowering my tolerance for bullshit, and it's reduced my willingness to pretend to be nice to people who are consistently not nice to me to about two minutes. I'm no longer particularly interested in trying to maintain civility toward uncivil posters.

Neither menopause nor grief are excuses for attacking other people.

Wasn't she just recently saying her husband was being unforgiving about something or other? A bit odd way to react if they're against that sort of behavior.

Not sure. But this I know for certain: All of us go through rough times, terrible times even. Sometimes it does not make us the easiest people to be around. So I think it’s important to give a bit of grace to those we know are struggling. And if we are struggling, to do our best not to misdirect our anger and fears towards others.

Serious illness, death, losses of such magnitude are never fair. It is never ‘the right time.’ But they are inevitable.

That said, I do understand that it is ‘safer’ to unload blind fury at strangers on the internet. Or inanimate objects. Better that than hurting people we love or ourselves. Of course the hard line is actually harming others. That’s a huge no.

Yeah, I'm not unloading blind fury. I'm simply not going to tolerate asshole behavior directed at me when I've been civil and polite.

I get that you're trying to excuse my unwillingness to continue being the whipping post for posters who don't know the basics of civilized behavior, but I'm not "acting out" here. I understand you're trying to be caring, but you're mostly coming off as if I'm being unreasonable somehow. I'm not. I've been extraordinarily patient and reasonable for decades. I'm not going to tolerate such an unbalanced interaction any longer.

 

[Emily Lake]

I don’t believe that Emily is a Trumper. She’s more conservative than I am, especially along social issues.

I am not a "Trumper". I'm only somewhat more conservative than you on some social issues. I would bet I'm far more socialist than you on some specific issues. I have mixed views on a host of topics.

About the only thing I will say is that I simply don't bad-mouth elected politicians. I rarely give ANYONE nasty nicknames, I'm not sure I can even recall doing so but it's been 20 years so I could be wrong.

I don't call other posters names. I don't give celebrities or politicians disrespectful nicknames no matter how much I disagree with them. About the worst you're likely to find from me is saying that I don't care for someone, or perhaps that they're an idiot or an asshole. But generally I simply don't do that sort of thing.

My lack of willingness to jump on board the Trump Hate Train somehow has been spun to me approving of him. Even though I've also never jumped on board the Harris or the Clinton or the Biden carousel of contempt.

 

[Emily Lake]

Not a Trumper, but the way she's decided to act? Trump-like.

This is you choosing to treat me with disrespect, incivility, and contempt. And you seem to expect that I will just meekly accept your behavior.

Stop being a whiny bitch and throwing shade for no good reason. Act like a fucking grown up who understands how to behave in a social situation. You're being a snot-nosed child about this, and it's entirely your choice to do so.

 

[Politesse]

I get that you're trying to excuse my unwillingness to continue being the whipping post for posters who don't know the basics of civilized behavior, but I'm not "acting out" here.

And there we go again. What exactly are those basics of "civilized" behavior? I assume not being "tribalistic" is one of your rules? Us "tribal" people to be more "civilized", even if occasionally a sturdier hand must be applied to "whip us into shape" a bit?

O! Lonely must be your long burdens! How little thanks received! How little love for your tutelage, though you offer it openly, and in simple language make it plain!

 

[Emily Lake]

I get that you're trying to excuse my unwillingness to continue being the whipping post for posters who don't know the basics of civilized behavior, but I'm not "acting out" here.

And there we go again. What exactly are those basics of "civilized" behavior? I assume not being "tribalistic" is one of your rules? Us "tribal" people to be more "civilized", even if occasionally a sturdier hand must be applied to "whip us into shape" a bit?

O! Lonely must be your long burdens! How little thanks received! How little love for your tutelage, though you offer it openly, and in simple language make it plain!

How about you just try not to be an asshole? How about you make at least some reasonable attempt to treat me with the respect you would like in return?

Or you can continue to behave like a spoiled nepo baby who thinks it's appropriate and acceptable to treat other people with contempt while demanding that they be considerate toward you?

In case that was too long or too complex a thought for you to process:

Stop behaving like an asshole.

 

[Politesse]

I get that you're trying to excuse my unwillingness to continue being the whipping post for posters who don't know the basics of civilized behavior, but I'm not "acting out" here.

And there we go again. What exactly are those basics of "civilized" behavior? I assume not being "tribalistic" is one of your rules? Us "tribal" people to be more "civilized", even if occasionally a sturdier hand must be applied to "whip us into shape" a bit?

O! Lonely must be your long burdens! How little thanks received! How little love for your tutelage, though you offer it openly, and in simple language make it plain!

How about you just try not to be an asshole? How about you make at least some reasonable attempt to treat me with the respect you would like in return?

Or you can continue to behave like a spoiled nepo baby who thinks it's appropriate and acceptable to treat other people with contempt while demanding that they be considerate toward you?

In case that was too long or too complex a thought for you to process:

Stop behaving like an asshole.

We have very different notions of what constitutes "asshole" behavior. But I also have not, on fact, asked you not to be one if that is what God has laid it on your heart to be. And I'm not much interested in what you think of my character. I certainly haven't requested a scathing analysis of my personality, but I also don't much mind. I'm more interested in the *checks notes* actual content of the thread.

To me at least, habitually using colonial era slang to describe human beings in a disparaging fashion is very much connected to the overall question of why students drop out of programs before attaining a degree. You're not wrong that your use of language is common, even everyday. And if you tell me that "you don't think of things that way", that you think it is fine to call people you hate and fear "tribal" and those you admire and seek the approval of "civil" or "civilized" (because everyone you know talks that way) I do believe you. I think you genuinely do not think it is racist to bring out these ugly, loaded phrases and sling them around as though they had no weight or history before they popped into your head. We all talk how we were taught to speak, at least by default. But they do. And I think you ought to spend at least five minutes of your life thinking about the forces that shaped the world you live in, and placed you in a social class to whom horrifically racist language is part of the everyday patois. We don't learn language from dictionaries, we learn it from people. Who taught you that it is wicked to to be "tribal" and honorable to be "civilized"? Was there anything that tied all those people and their expectations about "normal language" together? A race, class, or political distinction they all shared, for instance? Do you really trust that they had society's best interests in mind, or whether they still do?

If you truly desire to make universities a place where all Americans feel comfortable enrolling, you cannot just ignore the fact you're struggling to discuss the matter at all without using that kind of language. Most university administrators are much the same. So are most faculty. Counselors, likewise. These are, in fact incredibly popular terms and concepts to use. Entirely acceptable to use in, say, a college board meeting. A program review. A faculty evaluation. A recommendation for transfer. And that's one of the problems we face.

Like you, those who use such language habitually don't think they are being racist when they do. Even when presented with hard data showing that our university system discriminates against Black, Chicano, and Native students at every stage, from admissions to counseling, to evaluation, to transfer, to thesis defense, to internship, to employment, their first response is always "how dare that person accuse me of racism when I don't feel racist?", not "Did my choice of words close a door that could have remained open?". But one of those is the more mature, adult response to criticism. And whether or not it is "nice", some reforms to our common practice and our common language are going to be needed, if we expect the gaps and rifts in our system to ever be healed.

 

[Toni]

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

Turns out that menopause is really lowering my tolerance for bullshit, and it's reduced my willingness to pretend to be nice to people who are consistently not nice to me to about two minutes. I'm no longer particularly interested in trying to maintain civility toward uncivil posters.

Neither menopause nor grief are excuses for attacking other people.

Wasn't she just recently saying her husband was being unforgiving about something or other? A bit odd way to react if they're against that sort of behavior.

Not sure. But this I know for certain: All of us go through rough times, terrible times even. Sometimes it does not make us the easiest people to be around. So I think it’s important to give a bit of grace to those we know are struggling. And if we are struggling, to do our best not to misdirect our anger and fears towards others.

Serious illness, death, losses of such magnitude are never fair. It is never ‘the right time.’ But they are inevitable.

That said, I do understand that it is ‘safer’ to unload blind fury at strangers on the internet. Or inanimate objects. Better that than hurting people we love or ourselves. Of course the hard line is actually harming others. That’s a huge no.

Yeah, I'm not unloading blind fury. I'm simply not going to tolerate asshole behavior directed at me when I've been civil and polite.

I get that you're trying to excuse my unwillingness to continue being the whipping post for posters who don't know the basics of civilized behavior, but I'm not "acting out" here. I understand you're trying to be caring, but you're mostly coming off as if I'm being unreasonable somehow. I'm not. I've been extraordinarily patient and reasonable for decades. I'm not going to tolerate such an unbalanced interaction any longer.

I'm sorry if I've offended you. Truly. I think all of us or at least most of us are on edge re: political situation and it is reflected in some of our posts. I periodically take breaks from reading anything political so that I can sleep at night. And not scream at people.

I do think that you are reacting out of scale. But of course, you are the one who feels attacked and you do not see your responses as out of scale. This is, to me, a case of not my circus, not my clowns kind of issue. It's your business what you write, how you react, etc. as well as any obvious immediate motivation or any underlying background going on. You mentioned the whole menopause (or perimenopause?) contribution or I would not have delved into any such mention. It's your business. And yes, they (the guys) do absolutely expect us (women) to be much nicer and more polite and conciliatory than they are, although they likely to not see it that way. Sometimes I almost regret correcting those posters who assumed I am male, mostly out of curiosity about whether they'd respond differently to me.