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Low Wages from Business Consolidation?

That's not fair Loren. When you have an Oppression Studies degree, your job options are limited to flipping burgers or bagging groceries, so it becomes very hard to find a high paying job in Social Reconstruction to pay back your student loans.
 
Wait a minute, you're mixing up the difference between economic power and political power. You're pretending they are the same thing.
They are, and it is illuminating that you are pretending that they are not.

A man who dies on the gallows is no more dead than a man who starves for want of an income.

Both political and economic power are expressed on a scale from minor inconveniences (being briefly detained by a policeman, or being fired from a job when another is easy to find) to fatal consequences (execution or starvation).

That you chose a meme showing one extreme in the first example and the opposite extreme for the second, either implies that you are too stupid to spot the moving goalpost, or think that others will be - neither of which reflects well on you, or on the strength of your arguments.

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Poorly drawn caricatures presenting strawman arguments are really no substitute for an intelligent and reasoned rebuttal.

But when that's all you have, I guess it's no surprise that that's all you can present.
 
The result is no magic equilibrium. That is a fairy tale.

A worker is alone and cannot survive alone for long.

They must take something very soon no matter how low it is.

They can only say no for so long.

An equilibrium exists when a worker can say no as easily as an employer can say no to paying more if somebody will take less.

Nobody's claiming the equilibrium is magical. That doesn't mean it isn't real.

A worker can't survive long without working--but an employer can't survive long without hiring, also.

Note that just because the worker took something doesn't mean he can't look for something better. That's the main way by which workers improve their position--taking better jobs.

An employer can more easily find a more helpless and desperate worker than a worker can find another employer.

Many more workers than employers.

You crying for the poor employer who has a hard time while totally ignoring the much more desperate circumstances of the worker is touching.

And the idea is to destroy things like Social Security and unemployment benefits to make people more desperate.

Capitalists are continually trying to make workers more and more helpless and desperate.

That is how that system works.

It is a system of plunder from workers.
 
The result is no magic equilibrium. That is a fairy tale.

A worker is alone and cannot survive alone for long.

They must take something very soon no matter how low it is.

They can only say no for so long.

An equilibrium exists when a worker can say no as easily as an employer can say no to paying more if somebody will take less.

That's why doctors and engineers make minimum wage.

The engineer is still paid the lowest possible wage.

The doctor is usually in business for himself. He is not paid a wage.

If he is paid a wage he is paid the lowest possible wage.

In capitalism it is inherent that workers are paid the lowest possible wage.

That is what frees up money for dividends to pay to people who do no work.

The whole idea is to do no work yet profit off the labor of others.

It is a system set up for aristocrats to do no work. Like the Trump kids. Pretending to work but not doing any real work.
 
Wait a minute, you're mixing up the difference between economic power and political power. You're pretending they are the same thing.
They are, and it is illuminating that you are pretending that they are not.

A man who dies on the gallows is no more dead than a man who starves for want of an income.

Both political and economic power are expressed on a scale from minor inconveniences (being briefly detained by a policeman, or being fired from a job when another is easy to find) to fatal consequences (execution or starvation).

That you chose a meme showing one extreme in the first example and the opposite extreme for the second, either implies that you are too stupid to spot the moving goalpost, or think that others will be - neither of which reflects well on you, or on the strength of your arguments.

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Critiques of state violence do not sing the praises of dictatorship.

Yet capitalists sing the praises of petty little dictators that are destroying the planet.

What good is it to talk about the dangers of despotic states and ignore more despotic multi-nationals that control governments?
 
The result is no magic equilibrium. That is a fairy tale.

A worker is alone and cannot survive alone for long.

They must take something very soon no matter how low it is.

They can only say no for so long.

An equilibrium exists when a worker can say no as easily as an employer can say no to paying more if somebody will take less.

That's why doctors and engineers make minimum wage.

The engineer is still paid the lowest possible wage.

The doctor is usually in business for himself. He is not paid a wage.

If he is paid a wage he is paid the lowest possible wage.

There's this guy named untermensche on this forum who tells me the only way wages ever go up is if there is government or union action to force it. Therefore this guy should be able to explain why doctors and engineers are only making minimum wage.

The lowest possible wage is also the highest possible wage, but you only concentrate on half of that statement.

In capitalism it is inherent that workers are paid the lowest possible wage.

Which happens to also be the highest possible wage at the same time. Employers try to pay as little as possible ***AND*** employees try to get paid as much as possible.

That is what frees up money for dividends to pay to people who do no work.

They do have to pay taxes to support politicians, true. And of course oppression studies majors who keep saying that paying as low as possible is inherently unfair.

The whole idea is to do no work yet profit off the labor of others.

So you want to get rid of politicians.

It is a system set up for aristocrats to do no work. Like the Trump kids. Pretending to work but not doing any real work.

Well, he is now an elected official, so he qualifies.
 
Again it is not a level game.

The employer has more options, therefore more power, than the worker.

And while the worker is struggling to find the highest wage they must eat. They have constant bills.

Saying the worker is struggling against the system is not anything to brag about.
 

Poorly drawn caricatures presenting strawman arguments are really no substitute for an intelligent and reasoned rebuttal.

But when that's all you have, I guess it's no surprise that that's all you can present.

But while he's brought it up perhaps he can explain the difference between a government keeping people poor and otherwise shortening their lifespans and a private company doing the same thing. As if increasing poverty is rendered virtuous by people's voluntary(in so far as a society-wide ultimatum can be voluntary) participation in a system that impoverishes them.
 
The engineer is still paid the lowest possible wage.

The doctor is usually in business for himself. He is not paid a wage.

If he is paid a wage he is paid the lowest possible wage.

There's this guy named untermensche on this forum who tells me the only way wages ever go up is if there is government or union action to force it.

I said the wage never rises above the lowest possible wage without unions or government mandate.

My position is the coherent position not bending over to defend dictatorships.
 
The engineer is still paid the lowest possible wage.

The doctor is usually in business for himself. He is not paid a wage.

If he is paid a wage he is paid the lowest possible wage.

There's this guy named untermensche on this forum who tells me the only way wages ever go up is if there is government or union action to force it.

I said the wage never rises above the lowest possible wage without unions or government mandate.

My position is the coherent position not bending over to defend dictatorships.

So the government has mandated that the CEO of IBM make millions a year?
 
That's not fair Loren. When you have an Oppression Studies degree, your job options are limited to flipping burgers or bagging groceries, so it becomes very hard to find a high paying job in Social Reconstruction to pay back your student loans.

Yeah, an awful lot of liberal arts degrees aren't worth it.

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The result is no magic equilibrium. That is a fairy tale.

A worker is alone and cannot survive alone for long.

They must take something very soon no matter how low it is.

They can only say no for so long.

An equilibrium exists when a worker can say no as easily as an employer can say no to paying more if somebody will take less.

Nobody's claiming the equilibrium is magical. That doesn't mean it isn't real.

A worker can't survive long without working--but an employer can't survive long without hiring, also.

Note that just because the worker took something doesn't mean he can't look for something better. That's the main way by which workers improve their position--taking better jobs.

An employer can more easily find a more helpless and desperate worker than a worker can find another employer.

Many more workers than employers.

You crying for the poor employer who has a hard time while totally ignoring the much more desperate circumstances of the worker is touching.

And the idea is to destroy things like Social Security and unemployment benefits to make people more desperate.

Capitalists are continually trying to make workers more and more helpless and desperate.

That is how that system works.

It is a system of plunder from workers.

What you're missing is the worker can keep looking after they find that lousy job.

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That's why doctors and engineers make minimum wage.

The engineer is still paid the lowest possible wage.

The doctor is usually in business for himself. He is not paid a wage.

If he is paid a wage he is paid the lowest possible wage.

In capitalism it is inherent that workers are paid the lowest possible wage.

That is what frees up money for dividends to pay to people who do no work.

The whole idea is to do no work yet profit off the labor of others.

It is a system set up for aristocrats to do no work. Like the Trump kids. Pretending to work but not doing any real work.

More and more doctors are becoming employees. Their wages don't drop.

And you talk about people who do no work--but fail to understand that capital is nothing but stored labor. The work was done, just in the past.

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The engineer is still paid the lowest possible wage.

The doctor is usually in business for himself. He is not paid a wage.

If he is paid a wage he is paid the lowest possible wage.

There's this guy named untermensche on this forum who tells me the only way wages ever go up is if there is government or union action to force it.

I said the wage never rises above the lowest possible wage without unions or government mandate.

My position is the coherent position not bending over to defend dictatorships.

Coherent isn't proof of correctness.
 
This is about the United States, but similar things may be happening elsewhere.

A new theory for why Americans can’t get a raise. nothing Labor Market Concentration
If you were a delivery van driver searching for a new job any time between the years of 2010 and 2013, chances are, you wouldn’t have found many businesses competing for your services. In Selma, Alabama, there was, on average, just one company posting help wanted ads for those drivers on the nation’s biggest job board. In all of Orlando, Florida, there were about nine. Nationwide the average was about two.
There is a paucity of potential employers in several other fields.
The degree of concentration, and the effect on wages, tended to be worse in smaller towns than major cities. Places like Alpena, Michigan, and Butte, Montana, had the least competition among employers, while New York, Chicago, and Philadelphia had the most. It also varied by occupation. Equipment mechanics, legal secretaries, telemarketers, and those delivery drivers faced some of the most highly concentrated job markets; registered nurses, corporate salesmen, and customer service representatives had some of the least. But overall, the problem looks pervasive.
Thus, many employers are monopsonies or oligopsonies, the buying counterpart to monopolies and oligopolies.

This theory does not rule out other possibilities for workers getting less and less of the GDP, like suppression of labor unions and automation and financiers threatening to downgrade businesses for not paying their employees less.

This has various policy implications. Labor unions and the minimum wage can be good ways of coping with employment monopsonies and oligopsonies. It also suggests an additional concern for antitrust actions.

It is interesting that you picked Alpena Michigan. I did quite a bit of work in the cement plant in Alpena. When the plant was owned by National Cement it employed over 600 people. This was a huge employer in a town of ~10,000 people. The plant was a union plant. The plant was bought by a French company, LaFarge, picking over the bones of National which went out of business. The French intended to close the plant. They were buying the market of the plant intending to supply the cement for the market from an expansion in one of their Canadian plants near the Great Lakes. They hired my company who along with their own engineering staff to do an audit of the plant to see if there was any equipment in it worth more than steel scrap value, a penny a pound.

Cement is the gray powder that you mix with sand and aggregate (stones) and water to make concrete. Cement factories are large industrial plants making thousands of tons of cement a day, plants that cost hundreds of millions of dollars. They are not concrete plants.

We found a plant that was well maintained but it used an older technology that was not energy efficient. But it had two major advantages, the energy was recovered to generate electricity and Michigan was at that time encouraging this type of what is called cogeneration, using excess heat generated by industrial processes to generate electricity. They forced the power utility to wheel the excess power generated to the cement plant's private customers in the state for 1 cent a kWh. The plant's steam turbines were manufactured in the 1920's and 30's. Replacing them with modern much more efficient turbine generators and providing just a small over fired superheating section in the waste heat boilers we could more than double their generation using the same amount of steam.

Their other big advantage was that they shipped the cement by ship on the Great Lakes, the cheapest form of transport and they were ice free for nine months of the year. They could sell cement not only around the Great Lakes they could go down the Illinois River to the Mississippi/Missouri/Ohio River systems. All of the Lafarge plants in Canada shipped by truck on the roads. Also the customers of the plant were largely in the US and the US was imposing a duty on imported cement and were talking about increasing it. NAFTA eliminated the duty for Mexican and Canadian cement.

We finally recommended that they keep the plant open and to cut the employment to ~250 by automation and outsourcing some maintenance work. They kept the union but were granted a lot of concessions by the union, including that construction in the plant could be by non-union contractors. We presented the proposal to the Lafarge board of directors in North America at their Corporate headquarters outside of Washington DC. One of the board members and possibly the only one who stayed awake and attentive through the presentation was Hillary Clinton. Her husband Bill had been the governor of Arkansas and would be again before he was elected president. She was on the board because of her reputation as a corporate lawyer.

There are very few American companies making cement in the US. Lafarge was combined a couple of years with a Swiss company Holderbank, trade name Holcim. I don't know what they call the combined company but they will certainly be bought out probably by a Chinese government concern that will pay too much for them and eventually will go bankrupt. The other big company in the US was CEMEX, a Mexican company, it is pronounced CEM-ex, not ce-MEX, before Bush 43's parting revenge in 2008. They were highly leveraged and lost a lot of their plants due to the recession. The Swiss/French company and the Mexican company produced about 70% of the cement in the US before the Great Recession. They were oligopsonies to we poor equipment suppliers and process contractors. They knew our margins and cut them to the minimum for us to stay in business.

Sorry, I don't have many opportunities to go to full old man mode and talk about the good old days.

Mergers happen because corporations have too much money and because CEO's like them, because they can control nearly every aspect of a merger whereas trying to grow the company through research and development, innovation, increased productivity or investing in production facilities to grow a product line all are messy, they involve a lot of people, a lot of risk, and a lot of boring, detailed work that the CEO can't possibly supervise.

But mergers almost never work out and fulfill the rosy projections of symbiotic magic between the two former competitors. And somehow the savings in duplicate labor never happens either. In a straight buyout the buyer overpays buying the other company's grossly inflated stock with their own somewhat less grossly inflated stock. However, as long as the CEO who pushed through the merger or buyout is still CEO no unfavorable word about the merger or buyout will be spoken. When that CEO retires or otherwise leaves everything that goes wrong in the company for the next twenty years will be blamed on the merger or buyout.
 
I said the wage never rises above the lowest possible wage without unions or government mandate.

My position is the coherent position not bending over to defend dictatorships.

So the government has mandated that the CEO of IBM make millions a year?

He is one of the corporate masters.

They have totally different rules.

They get as much as possible.

Which is why almost all other workers are paid as little as possible.

In master/slave systems the masters take as much as possible and give the slaves as little as possible.

Slaves did get food and they got medical attention because they had value to the master.

Today we have a system where the master does not care one bit about the health of the slave.

Today the system may be a little better but the master is worse. Capitalism is a dehumanizing corrosive system that turns most into the tools of a few.

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...More and more doctors are becoming employees. Their wages don't drop....

Half true.

More and more doctors are becoming employees and they are making less than their colleagues in private practice because of it.

They are now being paid the lowest possible wage.

No capitalist in business ever thinks about paying employees more than the lowest possible wage. It is inherent to the system which is a hair's breath from slavery and feudalism in human progress.
 
No capitalist in business ever thinks about paying employees more than the lowest possible wage.

And no employee in labor ever thinks about accepting less than the highest possible wage.

It is inherent to the system which is a hair's breath from slavery and feudalism in human progress.

The differences between feudalism and free market are so vast that there is no logical way to confuse them.
 
No capitalist in business ever thinks about paying employees more than the lowest possible wage.

And no employee in labor ever thinks about accepting less than the highest possible wage.

Not true at all.

It is inherent to the system which is a hair's breath from slavery and feudalism in human progress.

The differences between feudalism and free market are so vast that there is no logical way to confuse them.

Yet you have no differences to name.

Capitalism begins in earnest with the Industrial Revolution.

Immediately we see massive violence, oppression and exploitation in Africa and India and many other places, Colonization.

In the cities we see children chained to work stations treated and neglected like animals.

Capitalism in the US was especially brutal with the nearness to the daily tortures and massive violence of slavery.

Capitalists attacked and killed union leaders and forbade union activity.

Not too long ago we see the capitalist run terrorist attack of Iraq and a decade long military occupation. Capitalist violence in Afghanistan has lasted for 16 years non-stop.

I do not believe a word of your unsupported claims.
 
Not true at all.

So no employee has ever left a job to take a higher wage elsewhere.

So no employee has ever asked for a raise in order to be convinced to stay.

Maybe it is hard for someone with a degree in Oppression Studies to do that, but most people can.

Just as employers want to pay as little as possible employees want to be paid as much as possible. Both halves of the equation must be accounted for. "Y equals X squared" is a full equation, and you're running around saying "Y equals, Y equals, see, Y equals."

Not too long ago we see the capitalist run terrorist attack of Iraq and a decade long military occupation. Capitalist violence in Afghanistan has lasted for 16 years non-stop.

Yee-haw, you don't like it so therefore it is capitalism. Now we know your definition of Capitalism, and it has nothing to do with economics.
 
Not true at all.

So no employee has ever left a job to take a higher wage elsewhere.

So no employee has ever asked for a raise in order to be convinced to stay.

Maybe it is hard for someone with a degree in Oppression Studies to do that, but most people can.

Just as employers want to pay as little as possible employees want to be paid as much as possible. Both halves of the equation must be accounted for. "Y equals X squared" is a full equation, and you're running around saying "Y equals, Y equals, see, Y equals."

Not too long ago we see the capitalist run terrorist attack of Iraq and a decade long military occupation. Capitalist violence in Afghanistan has lasted for 16 years non-stop.

Yee-haw, you don't like it so therefore it is capitalism. Now we know your definition of Capitalism, and it has nothing to do with economics.

Yee-haw. It was clearly immoral and destructive so you pretend it was not initiated by capitalist powers.

When capitalists figured out how to profit from war they look for every chance to force a weak individual into ordering one. GW was the perfect naive patsy that wanted to be a "war president".
 
Not true at all.

So no employee has ever left a job to take a higher wage elsewhere.

I want to focus on the system as a whole.

You want to reduce it to individual cases to pretend the general trends do not exist.

Exceptions to every rule exist in human affairs, but the capitalist system is set up to pay employees the lowest possible wage.

A lot of work is used to find it.

That is by far the greatest trend in the system.
 
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