I have now met a real life creationist.

[Ford]

"nature" is a 'clockwork' mechanised system. Observed it looks like one and acts like one, mirrored by our own understanding of our own works.

I think its a fair proposition as an alternative doesn't exist or has never existed let alone to compare to. Unless you know something we don't.

Ah, so you assert that your assertion is the only possible answer, because you said so. Got it.

 

[Learner]

Ah, so you assert that your assertion is the only possible answer, because you said so. Got it.

Its just a debateable discussion and we all have our own minds (freethought) thats all there is to it.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I was just curious as to what word other than 'magic' used for theists, you would use for the IDers. I assume you would have used 'fantasy'.

Well... the ID position is just deeply dishonest. Everybody knows that they mean magic when they say "intelligent design". Raelians also believe in Intelligent Design. But I somehow doubt that the ID proponents feel comfortable giving equal time to the idea that life on Earth was created by benevolent aliens. Which incidentally, is what Scientology teaches as well, except that their aliens are evil.

But Christians believe that God was assembled through luck and chance. What could possibly be more improbably than an omnipotent and omniscient agent assembling itself randomly? Golly that was a lucky coincidence!

Well this would be similar to the idea that aliens advanced by eons that could have come to earth and created humans. Dawkins and other scientists I believe are opened to this oddly enough - just as long as its not the Christian God of course.

ha ha. It's hard to tell if you're joking now. The Dawkins position is at least plausible and doesn't violate any known laws of physics. The Creationist one is just idiotic. "More complicated life can't come from a less complicated being, so therefore the most complicated thing imaginable did... by... itself... somehow.... abrakadabra".

When I come to think of it, that's actually not limited to creationists. The entire concept of Christian God is so bizarre. I can't imagine the degree of brainwashing required for anybody to say they're Christian without blushing. It's just so crazy. If it wasn't so many of them they'd all get committed.

 

[Elixir]

Ah, so you assert that your assertion is the only possible answer, because you said so. Got it.

Its just a debateable discussion and we all have our own minds (freethought) thats all there is to it.

Yeah - alternative "facts" are in vogue right now.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Ah, so you assert that your assertion is the only possible answer, because you said so. Got it.

Its just a debateable discussion and we all have our own minds (freethought) thats all there is to it.

The plural of 'nuh-uh' is not 'debate.'

 

[funinspace]

Give us an example of wisdom from Aesop.

Trump:

"THE FROGS were living as happy as could be in a marshy swamp that just suited them; they went splashing about caring for nobody and nobody troubling with them. But some of them thought that this was not right, that they should have a king and a proper constitution, so they determined to send up a petition to Jove to give them what they wanted. “Mighty Jove,” they cried, “send unto us a king that will rule over us and keep us in order.” Jove laughed at their croaking, and threw down into the swamp a huge Log, which came down—kerplash—into the swamp. The Frogs were frightened out of their lives by the commotion made in their midst, and all rushed to the bank to look at the horrible monster; but after a time, seeing that it did not move, one or two of the boldest of them ventured out towards the Log, and even dared to touch it; still it did not move. Then the greatest hero of the Frogs jumped upon the Log and commenced dancing up and down upon it, thereupon all the Frogs came and did the same; and for some time the Frygs went about their business every day without taking the slightest notice of their new King Log lying in their midst. But this did not suit them, so they sent another petition to Jove, and said to him, “We want a real king; one that will really rule over us.” Now this made Jove angry, so he sent among them a big Stork that soon set to work gobbling them all up. Then the Frogs repented when too late."​

I'd say a clearer example of what wilson is asking for would be something like the below from Confucius:

"The better person has nine cares.
In seeing one is careful to see clearly;
in hearing one is careful to hear distinctly;
in one's looks one is careful to be kind,
in one's manner to be respectful,
in one's words to be sincere,
in one's work to be diligent.
When in doubt one is careful to ask for information;
when angry one has a care for the consequences;
and when one sees a chance for gain,
one thinks carefully whether the pursuits of it would be right."

"By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest."

Or some from the ME:
A true gentleman should be humble and not overweening, very wise and prudent, peaceable and calm. - Teaching by Amenemope

A Teaching of Ptahhotep:

4 Don’t be proud of your knowledge,
Consult the ignorant and the wise;
The limits of art are not reached,
No artist's skills are perfect;
Good speech is more hidden than greenstone,
Yet may be found among maids at the grindstones.

5 Do not repeat calumny,
Nor should you listen to it,
It is the spouting of the hot-bellied.
Report a thing observed, not heard,
If it is negligible, don't say anything,
He who is before you recognizes worth.
If a seizure is ordered and carried out,
Hatred will arise against him who seizes;
Calumny is like a dream against which one covers the face

 

[wilson]

I'd say a clearer example of what wilson is asking for would be something like the below from Confucius:

"The better person has nine cares.
In seeing one is careful to see clearly;
in hearing one is careful to hear distinctly;
in one's looks one is careful to be kind,
in one's manner to be respectful,
in one's words to be sincere,
in one's work to be diligent.
When in doubt one is careful to ask for information;
when angry one has a care for the consequences;
and when one sees a chance for gain,
one thinks carefully whether the pursuits of it would be right."

"By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest."

Or some from the ME:
A true gentleman should be humble and not overweening, very wise and prudent, peaceable and calm. - Teaching by Amenemope

A Teaching of Ptahhotep:

4 Don’t be proud of your knowledge,
Consult the ignorant and the wise;
The limits of art are not reached,
No artist's skills are perfect;
Good speech is more hidden than greenstone,
Yet may be found among maids at the grindstones.

5 Do not repeat calumny,
Nor should you listen to it,
It is the spouting of the hot-bellied.
Report a thing observed, not heard,
If it is negligible, don't say anything,
He who is before you recognizes worth.
If a seizure is ordered and carried out,
Hatred will arise against him who seizes;
Calumny is like a dream against which one covers the face

Empty words. Using those words, what problems have been solved? What dangers and calamity have been averted? Has Confucianism solved the problems of conflict among its adherents? Or do they engage in warfare like so many others? If you find these words to truly wise, have you adopted them? Will you try explaining that first paragraph?

"Wisdom is "the ability to use knowledge and understanding successfully to solve problems, avoid or avert dangers, attain certain goals, or counsel others in doing so. It is the opposite of foolishness, stupidity, and madness, with which it is often contrasted.......Wisdom implies a breadth of knowledge and a depth of understanding, these giving the soundness and clarity of judgment characteristic of wisdom." (Insight vol. 2 p. 1189)

Where's the wisdom?

 

[DrZoidberg]

I'd say a clearer example of what wilson is asking for would be something like the below from Confucius:

"The better person has nine cares.
In seeing one is careful to see clearly;
in hearing one is careful to hear distinctly;
in one's looks one is careful to be kind,
in one's manner to be respectful,
in one's words to be sincere,
in one's work to be diligent.
When in doubt one is careful to ask for information;
when angry one has a care for the consequences;
and when one sees a chance for gain,
one thinks carefully whether the pursuits of it would be right."

"By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest."

Or some from the ME:
A true gentleman should be humble and not overweening, very wise and prudent, peaceable and calm. - Teaching by Amenemope

A Teaching of Ptahhotep:

4 Don’t be proud of your knowledge,
Consult the ignorant and the wise;
The limits of art are not reached,
No artist's skills are perfect;
Good speech is more hidden than greenstone,
Yet may be found among maids at the grindstones.

5 Do not repeat calumny,
Nor should you listen to it,
It is the spouting of the hot-bellied.
Report a thing observed, not heard,
If it is negligible, don't say anything,
He who is before you recognizes worth.
If a seizure is ordered and carried out,
Hatred will arise against him who seizes;
Calumny is like a dream against which one covers the face

Empty words. Using those words, what problems have been solved? What dangers and calamity have been averted? Has Confucianism solved the problems of conflict among its adherents? Or do they engage in warfare like so many others? If you find these words to truly wise, have you adopted them? Will you try explaining that first paragraph?

"Wisdom is "the ability to use knowledge and understanding successfully to solve problems, avoid or avert dangers, attain certain goals, or counsel others in doing so. It is the opposite of foolishness, stupidity, and madness, with which it is often contrasted.......Wisdom implies a breadth of knowledge and a depth of understanding, these giving the soundness and clarity of judgment characteristic of wisdom." (Insight vol. 2 p. 1189)

Where's the wisdom?

I'm sorry, but this is perhaps the most chauvinistic and ignorant mess of post I've ever read in this forum.

The words of Confucius created the oldest and most stable empire this planet has ever seen. It still informs Chinese society today. And it's way older than Christianity. If you're going to have a go at the merits of an ethical system, you picked the wrong target.

I hope that answers what problems it has solved. Read some history!

The Christian Bible is just one in a sea of comparable works. All quite similar. Most not used as sacred literature. And like most of them the Bible isn't a particularly good ethical guide today.

 

[funinspace]

I'd say a clearer example of what wilson is asking for would be something like the below from Confucius:

"The better person has nine cares.
In seeing one is careful to see clearly;
in hearing one is careful to hear distinctly;
in one's looks one is careful to be kind,
in one's manner to be respectful,
in one's words to be sincere,
in one's work to be diligent.
When in doubt one is careful to ask for information;
when angry one has a care for the consequences;
and when one sees a chance for gain,
one thinks carefully whether the pursuits of it would be right."

"By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest."

Or some from the ME:
A true gentleman should be humble and not overweening, very wise and prudent, peaceable and calm. - Teaching by Amenemope

A Teaching of Ptahhotep:

4 Don’t be proud of your knowledge,
Consult the ignorant and the wise;
The limits of art are not reached,
No artist's skills are perfect;
Good speech is more hidden than greenstone,
Yet may be found among maids at the grindstones.

5 Do not repeat calumny,
Nor should you listen to it,
It is the spouting of the hot-bellied.
Report a thing observed, not heard,
If it is negligible, don't say anything,
He who is before you recognizes worth.
If a seizure is ordered and carried out,
Hatred will arise against him who seizes;
Calumny is like a dream against which one covers the face

Empty words. Using those words, what problems have been solved? What dangers and calamity have been averted? Has Confucianism solved the problems of conflict among its adherents? Or do they engage in warfare like so many others?

LOL...the people who embraced Confucianism are essentially no less or more mired in violence and warfare than any other group of people clinging to any other ethics/religious system (including Christianity). It seems that there are no words to stop human violence.

If you find these words to truly wise, have you adopted them?

Generally, I would certainly agree with the points made. This would be a decent summary of my values that I try to uphold if you really care:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism#Council_for_Secular_Humanism

Will you try explaining that first paragraph?

Are you confused about the ideas of seeing issues clearly?
Are you confused about the idea of listening with care?
Are you confused about the notion of being respectful?
Are you confused as to what it means to be sincere?
Are you confused to what it means to be diligent in ones work?
If you are unsure of something, are you confused about the idea to ask for more information?
Are you confused about the idea of thinking carefully before taking risks on a pursuit of profit or something otherwise?

Not sure what you need explaining as it seams rather self-evident...

I am rather surprised you include this in "empty words":
A true gentleman should be humble and not overweening, very wise and prudent, peaceable and calm. - Teaching by Amenemope

 

[Keith&Co.]

Not sure what you need explaining as it seams rather self-evident...

I am rather surprised you include this in "empty words":

I don't think he doesn't understand it as much as he pre-rejects it because its source is not his happy buddy skybeast. If he allowed anyone else to provide wisdom, it would counter his claims and he'd be left with no means to be smugly superior.

 

[funinspace]

Not sure what you need explaining as it seams rather self-evident...

I am rather surprised you include this in "empty words":

I don't think he doesn't understand it as much as he pre-rejects it because its source is not his happy buddy skybeast. If he allowed anyone else to provide wisdom, it would counter his claims and he'd be left with no means to be smugly superior.

Sure, but this one is actually kind of fun. The Egyptian Pharaoh Amenemope's death is dated to 992BCE. The reign of King Solomon is dated to c. 970–931 BCE. And there is quite a bit of debate on who borrowed from whom regarding Proverbs 22:17–24:22. Personally, I think that the historical information is insufficient for one to claim either source is definitely borrowed from the other. But at the same time, only dogma can hold the Jewish Proverbs to be primary.

NWT Proverbs 11:2: “When presumptuousness comes, dishonor will follow, But wisdom is with the modest ones.”
Teaching by Amenemope: “A true gentleman should be humble and not overweening, very wise and prudent, peaceable and calm.”

Presumptuous and overweening are synonyms:
http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/overweening

But you are probably quite right (though in much more than the source) in that he will ‘pre-reject’ the dating, as it won’t support his theology. Though I’m not sure how that works when:

I don't believe in theology

 

[blastula]

wilson doesn't believe in words he doesn't understand.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Though I’m not sure how that works when:

I don't believe in theology

Wilson doesn't feel the need to all experts to dictate facts to him. He knows what he knows and no one will tell him anydifferent, no matter how good their credentials, argument, facts, evidence, corroboration or cartoon drawings.

 

[wilson]

Empty words. Using those words, what problems have been solved? What dangers and calamity have been averted? Has Confucianism solved the problems of conflict among its adherents? Or do they engage in warfare like so many others? If you find these words to truly wise, have you adopted them? Will you try explaining that first paragraph?

"Wisdom is "the ability to use knowledge and understanding successfully to solve problems, avoid or avert dangers, attain certain goals, or counsel others in doing so. It is the opposite of foolishness, stupidity, and madness, with which it is often contrasted.......Wisdom implies a breadth of knowledge and a depth of understanding, these giving the soundness and clarity of judgment characteristic of wisdom." (Insight vol. 2 p. 1189)

Where's the wisdom?

I'm sorry, but this is perhaps the most chauvinistic and ignorant mess of post I've ever read in this forum.

The words of Confucius created the oldest and most stable empire this planet has ever seen. It still informs Chinese society today. And it's way older than Christianity.

Can you interpret each line and show its wisdom?
Sure - paganism is older that Christianity; but Age does not determine quality, practicality nor wisdom.
Jesus Christ came long after the pagan philosophers and he exposed their flaws.

If you're going to have a go at the merits of an ethical system, you picked the wrong target.

My choice is correct. It is YOU who chose the God of all the Universe as an enemy. You will lose.

I hope that answers what problems it has solved. Read some history!

It doesn't!
War and injustice still plague its adherents in spite of the applications of its principles.

The Christian Bible is just one in a sea of comparable works. All quite similar. Most not used as sacred literature. And like most of them the Bible isn't a particularly good ethical guide today.

It is quite evident that you have not studied the bible.
"Independent of all other books, it imitates no other. It stands on its own merits, giving credit to its unique Author. The Bible is also distinguished as having survived more violent controversy than any other book, hated as it is by many enemies." (Insight vol. 1)
Archaeology supports many of the places and characters of the Bible.
Applications of biblical principles NEVER fail.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I hope that answers what problems it has solved. Read some history!

It doesn't!
War and injustice still plague its adherents in spite of the applications of its principles.

Ooooh, a telling blow, Dr!
Just look how peaceful and just all majority-Christain nations have been for the last 1800 years.

Applications of biblical principles NEVER fail.

Yes, this would be why the Flat Earth Society has such pull in cosmology and physics departments of all universities.
And why every biologist worth his or her salt has studied the striped-stick theory of inheritance.
And every world map is centered on the Mountain Christ stood on where he could see all the nations of the world.
The list just goes on and on and on...

 

[wilson]

wilson doesn't believe in words he doesn't understand.

If you are referring to the word "theology," I reject it because it deals primarily with religious traditions.
Those are unreliable and mostly based on falsehood.

 

[wilson]

“. . .He that is (skip)

Yup. I am not one for false humility;

That may be because you are unable to recognize genuine humility and its positive benefits.

It is very, very clear that you are not only less well educated than I,

A lot of very educated men believed and promoted the idea of Aryan racial superiority. Others promote the idea that science holds all the answers. Failures all.

but that you are proud of it, and cling to your ignorance with a stubbornness that totally justifies my looking down on you.

I am not one to follow foolishness.

Don't feel sorry for people whose circumstances you are ignorant of. They may be far happier that you can ever hope to be.

Maybe. Some guy lying in a shop doorway, off his head on hard drugs, is probably far happier in that instant, than I have ever been - there's a reason why people take (and get addicted to) drugs, after all.
That doesn't stop me from feeling sorry for him.

Did you say something about ignorance and stubbornness? Why is it that you do not know what happiness is? Temporary euphoria is not happiness. The truly happy people have it all the time. Yes, they do exist, because it is not something that can be taken away by any kind of adversity or philosophy. Their reason for being happy is what anchors them securely.

That you are so happy with your incredibly limited world-view is another reason for my pity; It's like talking to a man who has been in jail his whole life, who is ever-so pleased that he doesn't have to work for a living, and who reacts with pure fear to the idea of being released.

Strange how my "incredibly limited worldview" keeps me at peace with my fellow man and enables me to avoid the kind of conflict that now engulfs the "smart" ones.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I'm sorry, but this is perhaps the most chauvinistic and ignorant mess of post I've ever read in this forum.

The words of Confucius created the oldest and most stable empire this planet has ever seen. It still informs Chinese society today. And it's way older than Christianity.

Can you interpret each line and show its wisdom?

I'm not sure of your question. Anybody can interpret any line of text. Confucius' philosophy informed the emperor Xin and did such a stellar job that China now bears his name.

Here's his complete works on-line.
http://classics.mit.edu/Browse/browse-Confucius.html

Sure - paganism is older that Christianity; but Age does not determine quality, practicality nor wisdom.
Jesus Christ came long after the pagan philosophers and he exposed their flaws.

ha ha ha. You clearly need to read more pagan philosophy. Paganism is a lot more sophisticated and deep religious philosophy than Christianity ever was. Christian works makes no attempt to argue for anything or explain anything. All the arguments come from power. ie "my god can beat you up so you should obey". Christian theology is probably the most shallow religious concept ever devised.

There's a reason pagan philosophy is required reading when studying philosophy today. None of the Christian theologians are.

I suggest trying to pick another target than paganism. You clearly don't understand what you're criticising.

Ovid's Metamorphoses is about human change. How we grow and evolve. It goes through the weird and wonderful sex lives of humans. It explores a whole host of themes. And it's a work that is still relevant today. The Bible has been completely thrown out by all psychology departments and institutions as complete garbage. It teaches us that we should be able to put a lid on our sexuality and be something we're not. No, shit that isn't working out.

If you're going to have a go at the merits of an ethical system, you picked the wrong target.

My choice is correct. It is YOU who chose the God of all the Universe as an enemy. You will lose.

So your argument is that because God is more powerful he doesn't have to be ethical? Does might make right? Is the stronger party always in the right, just because they are stronger? Would an evil God also be morally right?

Let's ignore that God is imaginary. I'm pretending God exists for the benefit of this line of reasoning.

The Christian Bible is just one in a sea of comparable works. All quite similar. Most not used as sacred literature. And like most of them the Bible isn't a particularly good ethical guide today.

It is quite evident that you have not studied the bible.
"Independent of all other books, it imitates no other. It stands on its own merits, giving credit to its unique Author. The Bible is also distinguished as having survived more violent controversy than any other book, hated as it is by many enemies." (Insight vol. 1)
Archaeology supports many of the places and characters of the Bible.
Applications of biblical principles NEVER fail.

.... or perhaps, you've studied the Bible too much, and not other works nearly enough? Apart from it's large fan club the Bible isn't anything special. As sacred texts go it's remarkably shallow and uninteresting. Most other religious texts are better guides for life.

Religion interests me and I've read plenty about it and read their sacred texts. Not just Christianity.

 

[funinspace]

I hope that answers what problems it has solved. Read some history!

It doesn't!
War and injustice still plague its adherents in spite of the applications of its principles.

Me thinketh that you need a new mirror as yours must have shattered.

The Christian Bible is just one in a sea of comparable works. All quite similar. Most not used as sacred literature. And like most of them the Bible isn't a particularly good ethical guide today.

It is quite evident that you have not studied the bible.
"Independent of all other books, it imitates no other.

Except when it does.

It stands on its own merits, giving credit to its unique Author.

Which Bible is from this ‘unique’ Author?
Peshitta
Armenian
Coptic
Tewahedo
Ethiopian
Roman Catholic
Or the much more youthful Protestant canon?

And does this include such verses as follows from this ‘unique’ Author: Mt 17:21, Mt 18:11, Mt 23:14, Mt 7:16, Mk 9:44, Mk 9:46, Mk 11:26, Mk 15:28, Mk 16:9–20, Lk 17:36, Lk 23:17, Jn 5:3–4, Jn 7:53-8:11, Acts 8:37, Acts 15:34, Acts 24:6p–7, Acts 28:29, Rom 16:24? Sure is a lot of funny inconsistency from an all powerful and knowing Skybeast...

The Bible is also distinguished as having survived more violent controversy than any other book, hated as it is by many enemies." (Insight vol. 1)

So has the Quran, so?

Archaeology supports many of the places and characters of the Bible.

Except where it contradicts archeology and/or where there is a Yuge silence even when one would expect quite a bit of evidence. Some of the more major/obvious issues:
There was no worldwide Deluge, as archeology and geology clearly shows.
There wasn’t any Tower of Babel event causing the spread of languages, as understood by linguists.
There was no day that the sun stood still for Joshua, as it would have shocked the dozen or so large literate civilizations and would absolutely have been recorded. That we have no record of such is telling.
The Exodus seems to have happened in an alternate reality as archeologists cannot find it.
The sun was not turned back 10 degrees for Hezekiah, again literate civilizations would have been shocked and would have recorded it…yet all we get is archeological crickets.
What Census of Quirinius?
It was never recorded that King Harod ordered all the male children two years old and younger killed in the Bethlehem region.
Matthew’s and Luke’s birthing/baby travel narratives contradict each other.

Applications of biblical principles NEVER fail.

Except when it regularly does, then the No True Scotsman is employed over and over….

 

[DrZoidberg]

Applications of biblical principles NEVER fail.

Except when it regularly does, then the No True Scotsman is employed over and over….

I'm very grateful Christians continually fail at stoning people for working on Sundays. Imaging the utter mayhem, every damn week. I'm very happy rape is illegal. So, well done failing to apply that Biblical principle.

For everything that's good advice I can find two that is awful advice. That's just doing a quick scan. Wilson must have some sort of special Bible nobody else has read?