How do we know what Jesus said when no one was there, anyway?

[Learner]

IMO the plainest and most problematical contradiction for Christians who consider the Bible inerrant, is the question of Jesus' grandfather.

Matthew 1, from the KJV:

Lion, at least one of those lists has to be wrong. How do you, personally, deal with this fact?

The fact that one shouldn't be entirely KJV- ONLY.. IF you get "confused" with the gist of the theme ...so to speak.

 

[Learner]

You ignore the fact that the bible gives a description of the attributes of both jealousy and love, both what they are and what they are not.....hence your rationale does not work;

Who is God jealous of? Its not mankind obviously so how evil is it , in context?
(Satan is jealous of mankind which sounds more non-loving (to us) as the theology follows)

 

[Learner]

"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, then you will be saved."

St. Paul gave the very simple formula for escaping Hell and obtaining eternal life in heavenly glory. Is there any reason why a person like Joseph Mengele could not do those two simple things moments before he died?

Unfortunately for Mengele , if he is/was, that type of person then as it is with the "consistent " bible. God has rejected the reprobate mind. The extreme evil-doer will not be heard.

All names are already written in the book of life, from the day an individual is born. (He knew everyone before they were born) Mistakenly its not the other way round i.e. People get written in the BOL "after" how one has conducted his or her life. Which means; once his or her name is erased or blotted out ..it doesn't get written back in! (Erase and blot-out is interchangeable in various text versions)


He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels (Rev. 3:5).

Psalm 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.


Revelation 22:19

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of vthe book of life, and out of wthe holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
( "deliberate" maniputlation and misguiding doctrines, False prophets)

Exodus 32:32–33

Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin—; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, rout of thy book which thou hast written. 33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.


Exodus 32:32–33

Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin—; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

 

[Jobar]

IMO the plainest and most problematical contradiction for Christians who consider the Bible inerrant, is the question of Jesus' grandfather.

Matthew 1, from the KJV:

Lion, at least one of those lists has to be wrong. How do you, personally, deal with this fact?

The fact that one shouldn't be entirely KJV- ONLY.. IF you get "confused" with the gist of the theme ...so to speak.

Learner, every other version of Mt and Lk has those same lists of names. It's true I'm used to the KJV, having grown up Southern Baptist; but the translation doesn't matter.

 

[Learner]

Learner, every other version of Mt and Lk has those same lists of names. It's true I'm used to the KJV, having grown up Southern Baptist; but the translation doesn't matter.

To be fair, I was too hasty and you did have quite a few verses (like few other posts) which I should have addressed more for each individual verse.

(which is quite a bit to do at the moment)

 

[bilby]

If we want people like Hitler or Stalin to suffer for their crimes, we have to get off our knees and do something. Being satisfied with pretending that they didn't really get away with it is just infantile.

Great idea! We would probably have to make some commandments or sumink.

No; you need to actually DO SOMETHING.

'Commandments' just means telling other people to do stuff. It's not enough.

'You can't punish me for not doing my homework, I gave my brother a commandment to do it for me, and he failed to comply, the dirty sinner'.

Being satisfied with pretending that they didn't really get away with it is just infantile.

To state the obvious. Pretenders wouldn't really be believers (Jesus warns against those types)

To state the obvious, belief IS pretence. If you have evidence that exists outside your imagination, then you have knowledge, not belief.

 

[Learner]

No; you need to actually DO SOMETHING.

'Commandments' just means telling other people to do stuff. It's not enough.

'You can't punish me for not doing my homework, I gave my brother a commandment to do it, and he failed to comply, the dirty sinner'.

So how would you portray doing "something" across a nation? Would you all agree without some mutually-agreed-upon guidlines (the correct measure)? Just in case one person just doesn't like that person ..personally.

To state the obvious, belief IS pretence. If you have evidence that exists outside your imagination, then you have knowledge, not belief.

If one is going to pretend, then to suffer for the pretence seems to be something else!

 

[bilby]

No; you need to actually DO SOMETHING.

'Commandments' just means telling other people to do stuff. It's not enough.

'You can't punish me for not doing my homework, I gave my brother a commandment to do it, and he failed to comply, the dirty sinner'.

So how would you portray doing "something" across a nation? Would you all agree without some mutually-agreed-upon guidlines? Just in case one person just doesn't like that person ..personally.

No; agreement on guidelines is meaningless without enforcement. Laws don't arrest people. People arrest people.

To state the obvious, belief IS pretence. If you have evidence that exists outside your imagination, then you have knowledge, not belief.

If one is going to pretend, then to suffer for the pretence seems to be something else!

Yes; to suffer for pretence is something else - it's fucking stupid.

 

[WAB]

No; you need to actually DO SOMETHING.

'Commandments' just means telling other people to do stuff. It's not enough.

'You can't punish me for not doing my homework, I gave my brother a commandment to do it for me, and he failed to comply, the dirty sinner'.

Being satisfied with pretending that they didn't really get away with it is just infantile.

To state the obvious. Pretenders wouldn't really be believers (Jesus warns against those types)

To state the obvious, belief IS pretence. If you have evidence that exists outside your imagination, then you have knowledge, not belief.

Egad. To really state the obvious:

A belief is NOT pretense.

A belief may be in error, but what a person believes, they believe. They are NOT lying.

pre·tense
[ˈprēˌtens, prēˈtens]
NOUN
pretence (noun)

an attempt to make something that is not the case appear true.
"his anger is masked by a pretense that all is well" · [more]
synonyms: make-believe · act · putting on an act · acting · [more]
a false display of feelings, attitudes, or intentions.
"he asked me questions without any pretense at politeness"
the practice of inventing imaginary situations in play.
"before the age of two, children start to engage in pretense"
synonyms: invention · concoction · piece of fiction · fiction · [more]
(pretense to)
a claim, especially a false or ambitious one.
"he was quick to disclaim any pretense to superiority"
synonyms: claim · aspiration · purporting · profession

 

[bilby]

No; you need to actually DO SOMETHING.

'Commandments' just means telling other people to do stuff. It's not enough.

'You can't punish me for not doing my homework, I gave my brother a commandment to do it for me, and he failed to comply, the dirty sinner'.


To state the obvious, belief IS pretence. If you have evidence that exists outside your imagination, then you have knowledge, not belief.

Egad. To really state the obvious:

A belief is NOT pretense.

A belief may be in error, but what a person believes, they believe. They are NOT lying.

pre·tense
[ˈprēˌtens, prēˈtens]
NOUN
pretence (noun)

an attempt to make something that is not the case appear true.
"his anger is masked by a pretense that all is well" · [more]
synonyms: make-believe · act · putting on an act · acting · [more]
a false display of feelings, attitudes, or intentions.
"he asked me questions without any pretense at politeness"
the practice of inventing imaginary situations in play.
"before the age of two, children start to engage in pretense"
synonyms: invention · concoction · piece of fiction · fiction · [more]
(pretense to)
a claim, especially a false or ambitious one.
"he was quick to disclaim any pretense to superiority"
synonyms: claim · aspiration · purporting · profession

It's right there in your (rather sad) argument by dictionary.

Belief is pretence taken too far - When the attempt to make something that is not the case appear true is successful, you have belief.

 

[WAB]

Bullshit. And you damn well know it, but lack the integrity to admit it. When the word "pretense is used", or "pretender", most often it is in the sense that someone is lying.

You and fromderinside are the two most pretentious users on these boards.

lol!

People do not invent beliefs! Nor can someone really BELIEVE something they KNOW to be false!

Hit the books.

 

[bilby]

Bullshit. And you damn well know it, but lack the integrity to admit it. When the word "pretense is used", or "pretender", most often it is in the sense that someone is lying.

You and fromderinside are the two most pretentious users on these boards.

A believer IS lying. Successfully. To himself.

If what they believed was true, it would be knowledge. It's only belief because they have no reason to think that it's true.

I don't exclude myself from this offence. But I do make every effort to avoid believing stuff; and I have no respect for people who wallow in their errors, and try to assign some kind of nobility to the fact that they have been so successful in lying to themselves that they will make huge sacrifices rather than admit that they don't actually know what they are on about.

 

[WAB]

Bullshit. And you damn well know it, but lack the integrity to admit it. When the word "pretense is used", or "pretender", most often it is in the sense that someone is lying.

You and fromderinside are the two most pretentious users on these boards.

A believer IS lying. Successfully. To himself.

If what they believed was true, it would be knowledge. It's only belief because they have no reason to think that it's true.

Wrong again.

 

[bilby]

Bullshit. And you damn well know it, but lack the integrity to admit it. When the word "pretense is used", or "pretender", most often it is in the sense that someone is lying.

You and fromderinside are the two most pretentious users on these boards.

A believer IS lying. Successfully. To himself.

If what they believed was true, it would be knowledge. It's only belief because they have no reason to think that it's true.

Wrong again.

Just not in any way you can actually demonstrate.

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

You should certainly try thinking about it for more than three minutes. If you care about understanding, and not just about standing up for the position you have decided to nobly defend against reality.

 

[WAB]

Listen. It is literally impossible to truly believe something one knows for certain to be false.

Of course, there is such a thing as cognitive dissonance, the confusion of entertaining conflicting beliefs, but that is different.

You know this, and I know it.

Or are you just begging me to keep adding to your rep?

 

[James Brown]

Unfortunately for Mengele , if he is/was, that type of person then as it is with the "consistent " bible. God has rejected the reprobate mind. The extreme evil-doer will not be heard.

It would be foolish for me to split doctrinal hairs with a believer. There are plenty of Christians who would disagree with you. Your use of the word 'extreme' suggests there is a continuum from perfectly good to perfectly evil. If a person finds himself beyond the cut-off line in 'extreme evil' territory (who decides where that line is, by the way?) and if that person will not be heard, then it must be declared that the sacrifice of Jesus is inadequate. God can save you so long as you aren't too evil; otherwise he's powerless. Oh well.

The rest of your post can be swept under the centuries-old argument of Arminianism vs. Calvinism, and there is absolutely no way I'm going to wade into that morass. Both positions can be supported Biblically, thus neither position can be declared doctrinally correct.

 

[bilby]

Listen. It is literally impossible to truly believe something one knows for certain to be false.

It's also impossible to be a believer in the religious sense in something you know to be true. Proof denies faith.

Of course, there is such a thing as cognitive dissonance, the holding of conflicting beliefs, but that is different.

You know this, and I know it.

Or are you just begging me to keep adding to your rep?

I am begging you to actually think about what I am saying, instead of reflexively rejecting it based on a redefinition of what you think I ought to mean.

I'm not saying that people who will make extreme sacrifices for their faith are liars; I'm saying that they are morons who don't even understand what truth might possibly look like.

But of course you discarded that context when you needlessly jumped into an exchange between two other people, in order to make what you fondly imagine is a vitally important dictionary reference.

Because clearly dictionary definitions are more useful than conversational context when determining exactly what a person might mean.

 

[WAB]

Dictionaries exist for a reason, that being to prevent people like you from using words any way you damn well please.

Moreover: The way the word was cited, as used in the Bible, was as a dissembler, a hypocrite, which you also know. Not as a confused person, or someone with cognitive dissonance.

Morons?

Ah, last resort, the ad hom.

No dice this time, no more shiny pretentious sparklies for bilby.

 

[WAB]

It would be foolish for me to split doctrinal hairs with a believer.

There are all levels of believers, from the dunce to the genius. Western Civilization is stocked to the gills with geniuses who were also believers. From the Greeks & Latin geniuses (and long before them), up to Augustine, Aquinas, Anselm, Boethius, etc., the early church fathers, believers in Islam (at least one of them a hugely influential mathematician), in China, in India, all over the world on & on through the centuries, up to the present day, which finds us still in a world of remarkably intelligent people who are both scientists AND believers.

As you and bilby very well know.

bilby suggests believers are Morons? Well, some are, of course, but some are wickedly (slang usage), fiercely bright. If you'd like a list I can provide one.

One question: how do you think you would fare in a formal debate with Plantinga or Craig?

While I do not agree with either one of them, and in fact find evangelical philosophers rather repugnant, particularly fire & brimstone Calvinists, Baptists, Anglicans, et al, I would NEVER presume to debate those two men in a formal, academic setting.

Let us be honest with one another, and show at least a speck of humility, and understanding.

 

[DBT]

You ignore the fact that the bible gives a description of the attributes of both jealousy and love, both what they are and what they are not.....hence your rationale does not work;

Who is God jealous of? Its not mankind obviously so how evil is it , in context?
(Satan is jealous of mankind which sounds more non-loving (to us) as the theology follows)

What God may or may be jealous of is not relevant to the verses that clearly define love as not being jealous, and other verse that clearly contradict the attributes of love.....all being terms and conditions given by the bible itself, with no induction.