How can Derek Chauvin expect a fair trial in Minneapolis?

[laughing dog]

I have shown your reasoning means that it is impossible for Chauvin to get a fair trail anywhere in Minnesota,

You have shown no such thing. Certainly people living in metro Minneapolis would be more strong affected by #BLM threats of violence and insurgency than the population of say Brainerd should the trial be moved there.
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You have already demonstrated your ignorance of the jury makeup. You don't know squat about the Twin Cities or out state Minnesota. Out state Minnesota is pure red and filled with polite (and impolite) bigots. There is no love for the Twin Cities in out state Minnesota. To anyone who lives in the state, it is just as conceivable that out staters would be swayed by inciting violence in Minneapolis as Hennepin county jurors being swayed to avoid inciting violence.

Your unfounded fears about what may or may not affect jurors are only evidence of your fears and lack of knowledge about the state and situation, and they neatly dovetail with your bigoted characterization of the victim and kneejerk and ignorant defenses of Mr. Chauvin actions.

 

[Derec]

What evidence of asphyxiation would you expect to see?? It doesn't leave much evidence other than things like fibers from something placed over the mouth and nose, or bruising from the pressure. We know there was pressure which could cause bruising, nothing was over the face, what could the coroner see?

You'd think that if Floyd's trachea was crushed by Chauvin's knee that there would be evidence of damage to the trachea itself as well as to the larynx.

 

[Derec]

You have already demonstrated your ignorance of the jury makeup.

Where?

You don't know squat about the Twin Cities or out state Minnesota. Out state Minnesota is pure red and filled with polite (and impolite) bigots. There is no love for the Twin Cities in out state Minnesota. To anyone who lives in the state, it is just as conceivable that out staters would be swayed by inciting violence in Minneapolis as Hennepin county jurors being swayed to avoid inciting violence.

So you are saying that you don't want the trial moved because people outside the metro Minneapolis area are not left-wing enough?

Your unfounded fears about what may or may not affect jurors are only evidence of your fears and lack of knowledge about the state and situation, and they neatly dovetail with your bigoted characterization of the victim and kneejerk and ignorant defenses of Mr. Chauvin actions.

Your bigoted opinions about your fellow Minnesotans in no way disprove the fact that Chauvin is not getting a fair trial in Minneapolis. Hell, that judge even allows witnesses to sport #BLM t-shits for fuck's sake!

 

[Rhea]

All the evidence is required in order for a jury to come to a verdict.

Obviously.

No one here anywhere is arguing that the trial should be stopped.

No one.

So we can see that TSwizzle is trying to knock down a straw man that he has built. Looks easy to say, “You’re wrong! All the evidence should be heard!”
Except, of course, we can see that no one was saying the evidence should not be heard. So we can see that TSwizzle is arguing against a mirror here.

On the contrary, others are saying, quite clearly, that Chauvin will get a fair trial, it will all be heard. And it will include that video. And most are saying that they cannot imagine any evidence that could make that video NOT show a cop kneeling on a man’s neck, with his hands in his pockets while he hears the man say he can’t breathe, while he hears his fellow cops ask if he should let the man breathe, while he hears an EMT tell him to let the man breathe and while he sees the man become limp and then continues to kneel on his neck for another 4 minutes after than and then refuse the man care by the EMT.

We try to imagine what evidence they can show that will make that video NOT show that, and while we support their effort to try, we can’t imagine what they can show that makes that video go away.


Chauvin gets a fair trial, he gets all the evidence that his defense team can provide. NO one is asking that the defense not be able to show evidence. No one is asking that he be hung without a trial. TSwizzle’s claim that anyone is arguing to skip the trial is a fabrication from fantasy. An attempt, perhaps to change the subject and pretend “The Left” is horrible, even though no one is even arguing that, but TSwizzle attempting to turn the conversation off Chauvin and onto “The Left.”

 

[fromderinside]

Is someone arguing his trachea was crushed? All one need do is constrain breathing and circulation to the head while constraining ones ability to take a breath by pressing him to the ground for sufficient time to cause the heart to fail.

 

[laughing dog]

Where?

In this thread, duh. You claimed all the jurors were from Minneapolis. Then you claimed they were all from Hennepin county. We know for a fact at least one is not from Hennepin county.

So you are saying that you don't want the trial moved because people outside the metro Minneapolis area are not left-wing enough?

I didn't say that. I said your argument does not hold water.

Your bigoted opinions about your fellow Minnesotans in no way disprove the fact that Chauvin is not getting a fair trial in Minneapolis.

It is not a fact that Mr. Chauvin is not getting a fair trial in Minneapolis, so there is nothing to disprove. However, it is fact that outstate Mn is red. It is a fact that out state Mn has a good share of bigots. And the irony of your accusation of bigoted opinion of Minnesotans coming from someone who bases his entire claim of an unfair trial on a bigoted projection is fascinating.

Hell, that judge even allows witnesses to sport #BLM t-shits for fuck's sake!

Really, get a grip.

 

[Derec]

Indeed, when my roommate had a life-threatening asthma attack such that she was unable to breathe sufficiently to live, she was able to ask me with her voice to rush her to the emergency room, and, along the way as her O2 count diminished, answer “still here” between gasping wheezing attempts to get enough oxygen.

Asthma is an inflammation of lower airways. So it is more similar to liquid-filled lungs than a mechanical constriction of the cervical trachea as alleged by the prosecution.

But more obvious testimony has already been given from medical soures, with much more education and training than Derec, that his claim is physiologically false. But Derec pretends he has never heard it.

I do not pretend. I have read it, including the levels of drugs in Floyd's system and the fact that his lungs were severely fluid-filled.

“The ability to speak does not mean the patient is without danger,” said Dr. Mariell Jessup, chief science and medical officer of the American Heart Association.

Never claimed otherwise. But ability to speak means that air can move in the trachea.

“To speak, you only have to move air through the upper airways and the vocal cords, a very small amount,” and that does not mean that enough air is getting down into the lungs where it can supply the rest of the body with oxygen, said Dr. Gary Weissman, a lung specialist at the University of Pennsylvania.

The upper airway is the part that is alleged to being constricted by the prosecution.
However, since Floyd's lungs were filled with liquid due to fentanyl intoxication, he would have struggled to get oxygen into his blood and CO₂ out (real cause of the suffocation reflex btw; you can asphyxiate in an inert atmosphere without noticing) no matter the state of his upper airway.

“I’m not aware of any standard training of police officers that lets them know, ‘Hey, if someone is still able to talk they are not having difficulty breathing, so you can just keep doing what you are doing,'" said Craig Futterman, professor at University of Chicago Law School and an expert on use of force.

They might still have difficulty breathing because of inadequate gas exchange due to, for example, a pulmonary edema. How much pressure Chauvin was putting on Floyd's trachea is unknown and impossible to tell from the video alone. But what is known is that he had very high levels of fentanyl and a lot of liquid in his lungs.

 

[Derec]

In this thread, duh. You claimed all the jurors were from Minneapolis.

I never claimed they were all from within the city limits. From the metro area, sure.

Then you claimed they were all from Hennepin county. We know for a fact at least one is not from Hennepin county.

And who might this alleged juror be?
I am very skeptical of this claim of yours, since Minnesota Rule of Criminal Procedure 26.02 Subd. 1 states "The jury list must be composed of persons randomly selected from a fair cross-section of qualified county residents. The jury must be drawn from the jury list."

I didn't say that. I said your argument does not hold water.

You are very concerned that the rest of the state outside of the Minneapolis metro is too red to guarantee a conviction.
And you have not shown that my argument about the jury being influenced by threats of further rioting does not hold water.

It is not a fact that Mr. Chauvin is not getting a fair trial in Minneapolis, so there is nothing to disprove. However, it is fact that outstate Mn is red. It is a fact that out state Mn has a good share of bigots. And the irony of your accusation of bigoted opinion of Minnesotans coming from someone who bases his entire claim of an unfair trial on a bigoted projection is fascinating.

I have said nothing bigoted. That #BLM caused a lot of destruction last year is a fact. And it is very likely they will do so again should Chauvin get acquitted.

Really, get a grip.

Do you really think it's ok for witnesses to sport political t-shirts?

 

[Derec]

You are mistaken. At least one lives in Wright County.

If you mean juror 118, you are the one who is mistaked due to your poor reading comprehension. From your link:

Juror 118:
A white woman in her 20s. She is a newlywed and a social worker in Wright County whose clients are coping with mental health difficulties.

This means that she works in Wright County, not that she lives there. All jurors are selected from the county where the trial takes place.

Hennepin county is more than Minneapolis - it ranges from the posh Eden Prairie to more working class Bloomington and up and coming Maple Grove.

No kidding! Minneapolis and some of its inner-rung suburbs. Who would have guessed? It is still part of the metro area.

There is no evidence-based rationale for moving the trial to out-state Minnesota.

I offered my reasoning.

Your fear is not actual evidence.

It's based on what #BLMers have done in the past, for example in Ferguson. Or going even before #BLM, what happened in LA after the four cops were acquitted.
In that case btw, the trial was moved out of LA County. I guess this judge did not want to risk similar thing happening in Minneapolis.

 

[Jarhyn]

Yeah I've been struggling to express this cleanly: just because the verdict is already known does not make it an unfair trial.

Verdict being fixed before the trial is the very definition of a show trial.

No. Verdict being fixed by an overwhelming presentation of direct video evidence is the very definition of an "open and shut case".

A show trial is one where the evidence does not matter. The evidence here does matter. It's just very fucking clear about what happened.

Otherwise your logic would demand that clear cases get thrown out. That's not how this works though.

If you shoot someone in the head on fifth avenue in front of a filming crowd, that's your problem, not the problem of the court which will most assuredly find you guilty.

 

[Toni]

Asthma is an inflammation of lower airways. So it is more similar to liquid-filled lungs than a mechanical constriction of the cervical trachea as alleged by the prosecution.


I do not pretend. I have read it, including the levels of drugs in Floyd's system and the fact that his lungs were severely fluid-filled.

“The ability to speak does not mean the patient is without danger,” said Dr. Mariell Jessup, chief science and medical officer of the American Heart Association.

Never claimed otherwise. But ability to speak means that air can move in the trachea.

“To speak, you only have to move air through the upper airways and the vocal cords, a very small amount,” and that does not mean that enough air is getting down into the lungs where it can supply the rest of the body with oxygen, said Dr. Gary Weissman, a lung specialist at the University of Pennsylvania.

The upper airway is the part that is alleged to being constricted by the prosecution.
However, since Floyd's lungs were filled with liquid due to fentanyl intoxication, he would have struggled to get oxygen into his blood and CO₂ out (real cause of the suffocation reflex btw; you can asphyxiate in an inert atmosphere without noticing) no matter the state of his upper airway.

“I’m not aware of any standard training of police officers that lets them know, ‘Hey, if someone is still able to talk they are not having difficulty breathing, so you can just keep doing what you are doing,'" said Craig Futterman, professor at University of Chicago Law School and an expert on use of force.

They might still have difficulty breathing because of inadequate gas exchange due to, for example, a pulmonary edema. How much pressure Chauvin was putting on Floyd's trachea is unknown and impossible to tell from the video alone. But what is known is that he had very high levels of fentanyl and a lot of liquid in his lungs.

Can you please remind us where you went to medical school and how many years you have worked as a medical examiner? Exactly what are your qualifications that allow you to contradict the autopsy reports?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Will the trial of George Floyd's murderer be a fair trial?

No.

Most people have unconscious biases, most of those are against African Americans, and in favor of police. Even after trying to account for that in jury selection, it's still a thing. So, this trial will likely have members on the jury, who when they are in the final moments just can't bring themselves to find Chauvin guilty of murder. Of course, this is just a probability. Anything is possible. So, we'll just have to wait and see. No reason to talk it to death for 20 pages.

 

[laughing dog]

No kidding! Minneapolis and some of its inner-rung suburbs. Who would have guessed? It is still part of the metro area.

Yes, but it is a mistake based on ignorance to think that those suburbanites share the same fears about violence in Minneapolis as you do.

I offered my reasoning.

Yes, you did offer your ridiculous fear-driven feelings.

It's based on what #BLMers have done in the past, for example in Ferguson. Or going even before #BLM, what happened in LA after the four cops were acquitted.
In that case btw, the trial was moved out of LA County. I guess this judge did not want to risk similar thing happening in Minneapolis.

Your fear is not evidence, no matter how many times you repeat your feelings.

 

[laughing dog]

You are very concerned that the rest of the state outside of the Minneapolis metro is too red to guarantee a conviction.

No, I am not. I have not said any such thing.

And you have not shown that my argument about the jury being influenced by threats of further rioting does not hold water.

You have not shown your argument holds water.

I have said nothing bigoted. That #BLM caused a lot of destruction last year is a fact. And it is very likely they will do so again should Chauvin get acquitted.

It is not a fact that #BLM caused a lot of destruction in Minneapolis last year And your opinion about likihoods is based on fear and bigotry.

Do you really think it's ok for witnesses to sport political t-shirts?

I do not think #BLM is necessarily a political statement. And I think an experienced jurist is a much better arbiter of what a jwitness should or should not wear. Can you point to any laws or dress codes for witnesses in Mn? I could not find any.

 

[Jarhyn]

Man, so, last night when me and my friends were out we saw some very angry (and very justifiably angry) people chanting about George Floyd and blocking traffic.

None of it was violent, nor did it approach violence. I live here and commute directly past downtown minneapolis and through north minneapolis every day. There's no "violence" involved. Just a lot of simmering anger over a murderer and a reminder that if justice is miscarried, that consequences WILL happen.

As to whether rural minnesota is "too red", that's a dog whistle. They aren't too "red", they are too racist in that they would say George Floyd's life didn't matter. I recognize that this describes a huge portion of minnesota. I don't think that people who are neither peers to Chauvin nor Floyd, those who live far and away, should get any leverage on it anyway.

 

[southernhybrid]

It's very disturbing to me that some of the posters here seem so concerned about a man, who obviously served as both jury and executioner right before the eyes of multiple witnesses who begged him to back off, isn't getting a fair trial.

I've been watching the trial on and off, and it's quite obvious that Chauvin is getting a fair trial. The evidence is overwhelmingly against him, yet the prosecutor has to prove that he murdered Floyd and that he intended to murder Floyd. The person who was denied a fair trial was George Floyd. Why aren't all of us disgusted by the far too frequent actions of so many of our police! Floyd was no threat to these police. He had already been subdued. There were four or five of them, fully armed, and just one man, who was already struggling for his life. Passing a fake 20 and using illegal drugs shouldn't result in a death sentence.

And, just think of this. It will take all 12 of the jurors to convict this man. If only Floyd had that option before he was killed. It's the dehumanization of people like Floyd that often results in such outrageous reactions from the police. It's the militarization and poor training provided by many police departments that leaves the police viewing the citizens, especially the disenfranchised, as the enemy.

Just stating how I see it. It's obvious that there isn't much point in trying to reason with some of those who have posted here.

 

[Toni]

It's very disturbing to me that some of the posters here seem so concerned about a man, who obviously served as both jury and executioner right before the eyes of multiple witnesses who begged him to back off, isn't getting a fair trial.

I've been watching the trial on and off, and it's quite obvious that Chauvin is getting a fair trial. The evidence is overwhelmingly against him, yet the prosecutor has to prove that he murdered Floyd and that he intended to murder Floyd. The person who was denied a fair trial was George Floyd. Why aren't all of us disgusted by the far too frequent actions of so many of our police! Floyd was no threat to these police. He had already been subdued. There were four or five of them, fully armed, and just one man, who was already struggling for his life. Passing a fake 20 and using illegal drugs shouldn't result in a death sentence.

And, just think of this. It will take all 12 of the jurors to convict this man. If only Floyd had that option before he was killed. It's the dehumanization of people like Floyd that often results in such outrageous reactions from the police. It's the militarization and poor training provided by many police departments that leaves the police viewing the citizens, especially the disenfranchised, as the enemy.

Just stating how I see it. It's obvious that there isn't much point in trying to reason with some of those who have posted here.

Wins the thread

 

[Jarhyn]

It's very disturbing to me that some of the posters here seem so concerned about a man, who obviously served as both jury and executioner right before the eyes of multiple witnesses who begged him to back off, isn't getting a fair trial.

I've been watching the trial on and off, and it's quite obvious that Chauvin is getting a fair trial. The evidence is overwhelmingly against him, yet the prosecutor has to prove that he murdered Floyd and that he intended to murder Floyd. The person who was denied a fair trial was George Floyd. Why aren't all of us disgusted by the far too frequent actions of so many of our police! Floyd was no threat to these police. He had already been subdued. There were four or five of them, fully armed, and just one man, who was already struggling for his life. Passing a fake 20 and using illegal drugs shouldn't result in a death sentence.

And, just think of this. It will take all 12 of the jurors to convict this man. If only Floyd had that option before he was killed. It's the dehumanization of people like Floyd that often results in such outrageous reactions from the police. It's the militarization and poor training provided by many police departments that leaves the police viewing the citizens, especially the disenfranchised, as the enemy.

Just stating how I see it. It's obvious that there isn't much point in trying to reason with some of those who have posted here.

In fact the jurors of Floyd's trial were all cops. Judges, juries, executioners all. That is what an actual lynching looks like.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

No, I am not. I have not said any such thing.
You have not shown your argument holds water.

I have said nothing bigoted. That #BLM caused a lot of destruction last year is a fact. And it is very likely they will do so again should Chauvin get acquitted.

It is not a fact that #BLM caused a lot of destruction in Minneapolis last year And your opinion about likihoods is based on fear and bigotry.

Do you really think it's ok for witnesses to sport political t-shirts?

I do not think #BLM is necessarily a political statement. And I think an experienced jurist is a much better arbiter of what a jwitness should or should not wear. Can you point to any laws or dress codes for witnesses in Mn? I could not find any.

Wait...

should't Black Lives Matter be the default position?

 

[TSwizzle]

All the evidence is required in order for a jury to come to a verdict.

Obviously.

Not for some on here who seem to think the video is all that is needed. I'm saying there is a lot more to it than the video.

No one here anywhere is arguing that the trial should be stopped.

I'm not saying that there is. But they are saying there is no need for further evidence as their mind is already made up.

So we can see that TSwizzle is trying to knock down a straw man that he has built. Looks easy to say, “You’re wrong! All the evidence should be heard!”
Except, of course, we can see that no one was saying the evidence should not be heard. So we can see that TSwizzle is arguing against a mirror here.

You are deliberately taking what I said from a back and forth out of context.

On the contrary, others are saying, quite clearly, that Chauvin will get a fair trial, it will all be heard. And it will include that video. And most are saying that they cannot imagine any evidence that could make that video NOT show a cop kneeling on a man’s neck, with his hands in his pockets while he hears the man say he can’t breathe, while he hears his fellow cops ask if he should let the man breathe, while he hears an EMT tell him to let the man breathe and while he sees the man become limp and then continues to kneel on his neck for another 4 minutes after than and then refuse the man care by the EMT.

We still have to hear evidence as to what other contributing factors there are to Floyd's death.