Hans Holzer - Ghost Hunter

[Trodon]

Hans Holzer wrote over 100 books containing what he claimed to be true accounts of his experiences with ghosts.

When he died, he was given a respectful obituary in The New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/30/books/30holzer.html?_r=0

If what Hans Holzer wrote is true, ghosts exist, and at least in come cases something of the mind survives the death of the brain.

Has anyone else heard of Hans Holzer? If so, what do you think of him and his claims? Does anyone know if he was exposed as a fraud?

 

[bilby]

Hans Holzer wrote over 100 books containing what he claimed to be true accounts of his experiences with ghosts.

When he died, he was given a respectful obituary in The New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/30/books/30holzer.html?_r=0

If what Hans Holzer wrote is true, ghosts exist, and at least in come cases something of the mind survives the death of the brain.

Therefore what Hans Holzer wrote is not true.

Has anyone else heard of Hans Holzer? If so, what do you think of him and his claims? Does anyone know if he was exposed as a fraud?

We know enough to be able to rule out, with great certainty, mind-brain duality. The mind cannot exist in the absence of a brain any more than a fire can exist in the absence of fuel; or Microsoft Windows can run in the absence of a computer.

The details of his claims are thereby rendered unimportant. Perhaps he was delusional; perhaps he was a fraud; we know he was wrong, and unless you want to take action against his estate for ripping you off, there is nothing much to be gained by determining which.

 

[Trodon]

Therefore what Hans Holzer wrote is not true.

Has anyone else heard of Hans Holzer? If so, what do you think of him and his claims? Does anyone know if he was exposed as a fraud?

We know enough to be able to rule out, with great certainty, mind-brain duality. The mind cannot exist in the absence of a brain any more than a fire can exist in the absence of fuel; or Microsoft Windows can run in the absence of a computer.

The details of his claims are thereby rendered unimportant. Perhaps he was delusional; perhaps he was a fraud; we know he was wrong, and unless you want to take action against his estate for ripping you off, there is nothing much to be gained by determining which.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamed of in your philosophy.

- Hamlet (1.5.167-8)

 

[bilby]

Therefore what Hans Holzer wrote is not true. We know enough to be able to rule out, with great certainty, mind-brain duality. The mind cannot exist in the absence of a brain any more than a fire can exist in the absence of fuel; or Microsoft Windows can run in the absence of a computer.

The details of his claims are thereby rendered unimportant. Perhaps he was delusional; perhaps he was a fraud; we know he was wrong, and unless you want to take action against his estate for ripping you off, there is nothing much to be gained by determining which.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamed of in your philosophy.

- Hamlet (1.5.167-8)

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however boring, must include the whole truth.

Fiction is fun, but even quoting Shakespeare doesn't render it factual.

 

[skepticalbip]

Therefore what Hans Holzer wrote is not true. We know enough to be able to rule out, with great certainty, mind-brain duality. The mind cannot exist in the absence of a brain any more than a fire can exist in the absence of fuel; or Microsoft Windows can run in the absence of a computer.

The details of his claims are thereby rendered unimportant. Perhaps he was delusional; perhaps he was a fraud; we know he was wrong, and unless you want to take action against his estate for ripping you off, there is nothing much to be gained by determining which.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamed of in your philosophy.

- Hamlet (1.5.167-8)

Indeed. there is much that we don't know. However, this does not negate what we do know of reality. One of the things we do know is that the idea of mind-brain duality is nothing but the stuff of wishful thinking by those who fear the finality and reality of death. Even though that reality may hair-lip the Pope, spiritualists, mediums, channelers, etc. who's jobs depends on people believing it isn't true.
.
.

 

[beero1000]

What's really ironic about that quote is that Shakespeare wrote Hamlet at the beginning of the scientific revolution. Scientific evidence is why determining the existence of phenomena isn't philosophy any more.

 

[Trodon]

I discovered Hans Holzer when I was in the seventh grade. At the time I was interested in occult phenomenon. I lost interest when I considered that after a scientific study of the occult that has lasted for about a century and a half there was nothing that could be considered to be proof that ghosts exist.

Several years ago I was in the habit of patronizing a bar and restaurant that had existed before the Civil War, although under various ownerships. Once the owner told me that sometimes when he would be in the basement office after midnight he would hear the door open upstairs, and two men and a woman would walk in, laughing and talking. They would play jazz music on the jukebox.

The problem of course, was that the lights were out upstairs. The door was locked. the jukebox did not have jazz music. When the owner would walk upstairs, all would be quiet.

Several days later, when the owner was not in, an employee of his told me the same story. Of course they could have been lying.

I wanted to ask if I could take a sleeping bag over there, and spend the night to see what would happen. Unfortunately, the bar and restaurant soon closed.

When I mentioned that story to a bar tender at another bar and restaurant she said, "Oh yes. That place is haunted," as though it was common knowledge.

If you ask around you will find that many people have stories like that, although some might be embarrassed to talk about it.

I have never experienced a ghost. I have lived in old houses. When I was in my early twenties I liked to go into cemeteries after dark. The older and spookier they were, the more I liked it.

I never saw any ghosts. The scariest thing that ever happened to me was when I was almost arrested.

 

[bilby]

I discovered Hans Holzer when I was in the seventh grade. At the time I was interested in occult phenomenon. I lost interest when I considered that after a scientific study of the occult that has lasted for about a century and a half there was nothing that could be considered to be proof that ghosts exist.

Several years ago I was in the habit of patronizing a bar and restaurant that had existed before the Civil War, although under various ownerships. Once the owner told me that sometimes when he would be in the basement office after midnight he would hear the door open upstairs, and two men and a woman would walk in, laughing and talking. They would play jazz music on the jukebox.

The problem of course, was that the lights were out upstairs. The door was locked. the jukebox did not have jazz music. When the owner would walk upstairs, all would be quiet.

Several days later, when the owner was not in, an employee of his told me the same story. Of course they could have been lying.

I wanted to ask if I could take a sleeping bag over there, and spend the night to see what would happen. Unfortunately, the bar and restaurant soon closed.

When I mentioned that story to a bar tender at another bar and restaurant she said, "Oh yes. That place is haunted," as though it was common knowledge.

If you ask around you will find that many people have stories like that, although some might be embarrassed to talk about it.

I have never experienced a ghost. I have lived in old houses. When I was in my early twenties I liked to go into cemeteries after dark. The older and spookier they were, the more I liked it.

I never saw any ghosts. The scariest thing that ever happened to me was when I was almost arrested.

There are almost as many such anecdotes as there are old buildings.

What is lacking is evidence.

If hauntings and ghosts were as common as the stories suggest, then there would be a shit ton of evidence by now. But instead all we get is stories. Stories that can be attributed to fraud; or to dreams; or to hallucinations; or to misunderstandings; or even to psychiatric disorders. But no other evidence of any kind.

From this we can conclude that ghosts are as real as leprechauns, gods, unicorns and Bigfoot.

People like stories. People love ghost stories. No further explanation is needed, given the paucity of evidence.

If you want me to believe that ghosts exist, show me evidence. If I wanted stories, I can get a million of them at any library.

 

[beero1000]

They don't have to be liars. They could be exaggerating or just be plain wrong. Brains are weird things. Reality and people's experiences rarely match.

From time to time, I'll wake up in the middle of the night and see stuff floating around my head, or giant spiders crawling on my bed. I'll see them and I'll feel them. I'll know they're there. Half asleep and freaked out, I'll jump up and turn the lights on but once I do they're all gone. Experiences like that when falling asleep or waking up (hypnogogic/hypnopompic hallucinations) are not uncommon. A more superstitious person might think they're symptomatic of something supernatural, but I know that they're just in my head.

Now what do you think is more likely: that that restaurant was actually haunted, or that a manager in a basement office after midnight started nodding off and had a vivid hypnogogic hallucination - one that was influenced by the 'common knowledge' that the restaurant was haunted?

 

[Bronzeage]

Hans Holzer wrote over 100 books containing what he claimed to be true accounts of his experiences with ghosts.

When he died, he was given a respectful obituary in The New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/30/books/30holzer.html?_r=0

If what Hans Holzer wrote is true, ghosts exist, and at least in come cases something of the mind survives the death of the brain.

Has anyone else heard of Hans Holzer? If so, what do you think of him and his claims? Does anyone know if he was exposed as a fraud?

Hans is dead? That can't be. I was talking to him today.

Wait a minute. That's really spooky.

 

[Trodon]

I discovered Hans Holzer when I was in the seventh grade. At the time I was interested in occult phenomenon. I lost interest when I considered that after a scientific study of the occult that has lasted for about a century and a half there was nothing that could be considered to be proof that ghosts exist.

Several years ago I was in the habit of patronizing a bar and restaurant that had existed before the Civil War, although under various ownerships. Once the owner told me that sometimes when he would be in the basement office after midnight he would hear the door open upstairs, and two men and a woman would walk in, laughing and talking. They would play jazz music on the jukebox.

The problem of course, was that the lights were out upstairs. The door was locked. the jukebox did not have jazz music. When the owner would walk upstairs, all would be quiet.

Several days later, when the owner was not in, an employee of his told me the same story. Of course they could have been lying.

I wanted to ask if I could take a sleeping bag over there, and spend the night to see what would happen. Unfortunately, the bar and restaurant soon closed.

When I mentioned that story to a bar tender at another bar and restaurant she said, "Oh yes. That place is haunted," as though it was common knowledge.

If you ask around you will find that many people have stories like that, although some might be embarrassed to talk about it.

I have never experienced a ghost. I have lived in old houses. When I was in my early twenties I liked to go into cemeteries after dark. The older and spookier they were, the more I liked it.

I never saw any ghosts. The scariest thing that ever happened to me was when I was almost arrested.

There are almost as many such anecdotes as there are old buildings.

What is lacking is evidence.

If hauntings and ghosts were as common as the stories suggest, then there would be a shit ton of evidence by now. But instead all we get is stories. Stories that can be attributed to fraud; or to dreams; or to hallucinations; or to misunderstandings; or even to psychiatric disorders. But no other evidence of any kind.

From this we can conclude that ghosts are as real as leprechauns, gods, unicorns and Bigfoot.

People like stories. People love ghost stories. No further explanation is needed, given the paucity of evidence.

If you want me to believe that ghosts exist, show me evidence. If I wanted stories, I can get a million of them at any library.

If ghostly appearances were predictable it would be possible to have recording and measuring devices in place.

When I learned of these experiences I called a friend in San Francisco, who is an atheist by the way. He suggested I buy a voice activated recorder, give it to the owner, and ask him to put it beneath the counter of his bar. Before I could do that, the tavern closed.

 

[bilby]

There are almost as many such anecdotes as there are old buildings.

What is lacking is evidence.

If hauntings and ghosts were as common as the stories suggest, then there would be a shit ton of evidence by now. But instead all we get is stories. Stories that can be attributed to fraud; or to dreams; or to hallucinations; or to misunderstandings; or even to psychiatric disorders. But no other evidence of any kind.

From this we can conclude that ghosts are as real as leprechauns, gods, unicorns and Bigfoot.

People like stories. People love ghost stories. No further explanation is needed, given the paucity of evidence.

If you want me to believe that ghosts exist, show me evidence. If I wanted stories, I can get a million of them at any library.

If ghostly appearances were predictable it would be possible to have recording and measuring devices in place.

When I learned of these experiences I called a friend in San Francisco, who is an atheist by the way. He suggested I buy a voice activated recorder, give it to the owner, and ask him to put it beneath the counter of his bar. Before I could do that, the tavern closed.

Well I can't argue with evidence like that.

This kind of thing is why the sheer number of anecdotes actually weakens the case - if haunting was even one percent as common as the tales tell, then someone would have recorded one by pure chance. And yet all the recordings are either obvious fakes, or too poor quality to be evidence of anything.

When people present their failure to obtain evidence as though it were evidence, you know wishful thinking is all they've got.

Lack of evidence might have been plausible two decades ago; but these days almost everyone has a high quality video and still camera in their pocket almost all the time.

If there is a phenomenon, there will be tons of evidence. Nobody says 'if only I had a camera' these days.

 

[braces_for_impact]

I think the largest problem with paranormal stories like this, to be blunt, is that eye witness experience is simply the worst kind of evidence you can have. Yet, intuitively, it seems just so obvious that it's the opposite.

 

[Trodon]

I think the largest problem with paranormal stories like this, to be blunt, is that eye witness experience is simply the worst kind of evidence you can have. Yet, intuitively, it seems just so obvious that it's the opposite.

Paranormal events are rare and random. If they could be predicted we could have recording and measuring devices in place in advance.

Even if I had been able to record a conversation of the ghostly visitors at the tavern it would not prove the existence of ghosts beyond a reasonable doubt, because I could have recorded a conversation of several friends.

A recorded conversation would only have been valid evidence if from the conversation I could identify the three individuals, and the time the conversation happened. Then, from police reports and news stories I would need to demonstrate that these three people had died soon later, probably from an automobile accident.

If these were three co workers who dropped by the tavern in the 1930's or 1940's after work there is a good chance they would not have mentioned each others names, who they worked for, or any current events that would have enabled me to date the conversation.

Ghostly events like this usually record a sudden death, perhaps from violence or suicide.

All of these speculations assume that ghosts exist. I do not assume that, but I am open minded on the subject.

 

[skepticalbip]

There has actually been quite a bit of real research on this subject. People have been made to have these “paranormal experiences” on demand in a lab environment. They turn out to be all in their mind rather than them actually experiencing something outside themselves. The reason such experiences are rare and random in normal life is that the conditions that cause us to “experience” them are rare and random in normal life. However, people can be made to feel or hear "presences", have out of body experiences, etc. quite easily during laboratory studies.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I think the largest problem with paranormal stories like this, to be blunt, is that eye witness experience is simply the worst kind of evidence you can have. Yet, intuitively, it seems just so obvious that it's the opposite.

Paranormal events are rare and random. If they could be predicted we could have recording and measuring devices in place in advance.

Or they could happen during a time where pretty much every single person is carrying a recording device with them at all times and many of them record and share every bit of random nonsense that happens in their lives. To have none of those recording devices ever happen to be available when ghosts are around means either ghosts aren't around or their occurrences are about a billion times less frequent than cats happening to do weird shit are.