General religion

[funinspace]

Last night I rewatched Gladiator with Russel Crowe. It's just a bunch of fake bullshit, a movie, not real, just entertainment. But I watched it and enjoyed it nevertheless. That's pretty interesting, to know something isn't real but understand how pleasant it is to pretend that it is, to know that your brain is suspending disbelief for purposes of enjoyment.

Last Tuesday night I watched part of a horror show that seemed to consume most every channel...pray tell me that it was also not real, just...entertainment

More to the thread: I'd have to agree more with Cheerful Charlie's above post, in that most of the faithful and its leaders believe in their God (however it is presented) than not. Whether the description is 'delusional' or otherwise described.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

OK, scammer is the wrong word. Trickster might work better. The clergy are like magicians, or psychics. They all pretend to be connected to the supernatural.

This isn’t about feelings, or meanings or intentions. It is not negative or hateful. It’s about the place where religion goes wrong. It’s about where “the machine” is broken.

Who and what are we? Is a person the sum total of his knowledge? Or is a person the sum total of his ignorance? The questions come to mind because at least in my humble opinion the obvious false assumption is that religion is somehow supposed to be something good and wholesome. How exactly does religion "go wrong?" Why do so many people believe that religion is fundamentally good?

Shouldn't we take religion at face value, judge it based on what it is and not what we would like it to be? Are we doing some kind of pollyanna dance with religion that just feels good? Is this just another mindless human behavior that has been selected for over countless human generations?

If a person is a liar and a cheat and is religious why do we say that religion is good and the person is bad? Isn't religion nothing more than what religion does? At the very least we ought to accord religion and religious folk the same scrutiny we apply to the rest of life. Maybe the fact that so many people give a pass to religion is because the superstitious woo that is religious behavior has been brutally enforced for all of human history. That's a lot of selection pressure, a legacy that is not quickly or easily changed. For me religion and religious bias is a kind of intellectual pollution that some of us recognize and some of us do not. It hasn't been that long since even in western "free" societies the non-religious were killed.

Racism is alive and well, religious preference is really nothing more than intellectual racism - for lack of a better term.

 

[Crum]

There is a good part of religion, then there is the fantasy part of religion. The fantasy part is “whats wrong”. I think the best question to ask a theist is: “Says who?”

 

[Crum]

Who wrote the Bible? What are their credentials?

 

[skepticalbip]

Who wrote the Bible?

If you are looking for an answer from the religious it would be, "Those inspired by god."

What are their credentials?

Again, from the religious, the answer would be...



Personally, I would say it was written by mostly unknown scribes relating oral tradition and by people trying to justify a religion.

 

[Learner]

There is a good part of religion, then there is the fantasy part of religion. The fantasy part is “whats wrong”. I think the best question to ask a theist is: “Says who?”

Says you ...on the fantasy part.

Says me ...on the good part.

 

[Crum]

Inspired by God.
Says who?

 

[Learner]

See previous post, thats the good part.

 

[Jarhyn]

I have been on a long road around belief and religion and living honestly in the universe.

I see that quote, and honestly, if there is a god, it is spot on. It is so correct it hurts, in fact. But most importantly, it is more correct than the author gives themselves time for.

If you want to know the mind of god, if you believe such a thing exists, you must actually look at the things you can see that he has done. Don't look at the works of men. Look at the things the universe does, and the rules of it, and the ways it operates.

If you do this, you will understand something very important: of there is a god, that God wants you to doubt your beliefs as vigorously as possible. How can I say this? The universe expresses a relationship, and if there is a god, he is the author of that relationship, and that relationship I am talking about is the fact that doubt works: people who doubt their beliefs have more progress, growth, and success than those who do not.

Second, God wants you to accept the truth of Evolution, an old universe, and their non-intervention. Why can I say this? Because there are relationships in the universe that unequivocally show that the universe is old, that life is related to a common ancestor, and that that common ancestor arose billions of years ago. You can test it, do the math, use the reason god, if they exist, ensured would emerge in you to work it out.

Math, science, ethics, philosophy, logic, these all yield answers and function and value to living the only life we can be sure to get. The benefits of accepting the relationships that these approaches reveal within the universe is undeniable. They are real. And if the universe is the spoken word of God, their functional benefit is a message: figure it out, doubt your conclusions, and work on making them better.

Likewise there are other undeniable facts of the universe: sometimes people lie. Sometimes they lie about talking to god, even. Sometimes they say useful things with useless bullshit mixed in.

If there is a god they have written some fairly clear messages for anyone with the honesty to read and understand them. They are not written in books but in real relationships that exist as a result of the fundamental structure of the universe.

If you wish to know god, if there is a god, you WOULD do well to see what he has done, and do your best to understand it.

 

[WAB]

I've read this several times. It's really interesting, and even beautiful, Jarhyn.

 

[Lion IRC]

I have been on a long road around belief and religion and living honestly in the universe.

I see that quote, and honestly, if there is a god, it is spot on. It is so correct it hurts, in fact. But most importantly, it is more correct than the author gives themselves time for.

If you want to know the mind of god, if you believe such a thing exists, you must actually look at the things you can see that he has done. Don't look at the works of men. Look at the things the universe does, and the rules of it, and the ways it operates.

If you do this, you will understand something very important: of there is a god, that God wants you to doubt your beliefs as vigorously as possible. How can I say this? The universe expresses a relationship, and if there is a god, he is the author of that relationship, and that relationship I am talking about is the fact that doubt works: people who doubt their beliefs have more progress, growth, and success than those who do not.

Second, God wants you to accept the truth of Evolution, an old universe, and their non-intervention. Why can I say this? Because there are relationships in the universe that unequivocally show that the universe is old, that life is related to a common ancestor, and that that common ancestor arose billions of years ago. You can test it, do the math, use the reason god, if they exist, ensured would emerge in you to work it out.

Math, science, ethics, philosophy, logic, these all yield answers and function and value to living the only life we can be sure to get. The benefits of accepting the relationships that these approaches reveal within the universe is undeniable. They are real. And if the universe is the spoken word of God, their functional benefit is a message: figure it out, doubt your conclusions, and work on making them better.

Likewise there are other undeniable facts of the universe: sometimes people lie. Sometimes they lie about talking to god, even. Sometimes they say useful things with useless bullshit mixed in.

If there is a god they have written some fairly clear messages for anyone with the honesty to read and understand them. They are not written in books but in real relationships that exist as a result of the fundamental structure of the universe.

If you wish to know god, if there is a god, you WOULD do well to see what he has done, and do your best to understand it.

One pastor speaking to another...

Pastor JS - Hey, that was a really great sermon you just preached.
Pastor Anon - Thank you brother JS. That was the voice of God talking.
Pastor JS - Um... no, I've heard God. He is much better than THAT.

 

[skepticalbip]

I have been on a long road around belief and religion and living honestly in the universe.

I see that quote, and honestly, if there is a god, it is spot on. It is so correct it hurts, in fact. But most importantly, it is more correct than the author gives themselves time for.

If you want to know the mind of god, if you believe such a thing exists, you must actually look at the things you can see that he has done. Don't look at the works of men. Look at the things the universe does, and the rules of it, and the ways it operates.

If you do this, you will understand something very important: of there is a god, that God wants you to doubt your beliefs as vigorously as possible. How can I say this? The universe expresses a relationship, and if there is a god, he is the author of that relationship, and that relationship I am talking about is the fact that doubt works: people who doubt their beliefs have more progress, growth, and success than those who do not.

Second, God wants you to accept the truth of Evolution, an old universe, and their non-intervention. Why can I say this? Because there are relationships in the universe that unequivocally show that the universe is old, that life is related to a common ancestor, and that that common ancestor arose billions of years ago. You can test it, do the math, use the reason god, if they exist, ensured would emerge in you to work it out.

Math, science, ethics, philosophy, logic, these all yield answers and function and value to living the only life we can be sure to get. The benefits of accepting the relationships that these approaches reveal within the universe is undeniable. They are real. And if the universe is the spoken word of God, their functional benefit is a message: figure it out, doubt your conclusions, and work on making them better.

Likewise there are other undeniable facts of the universe: sometimes people lie. Sometimes they lie about talking to god, even. Sometimes they say useful things with useless bullshit mixed in.

If there is a god they have written some fairly clear messages for anyone with the honesty to read and understand them. They are not written in books but in real relationships that exist as a result of the fundamental structure of the universe.

If you wish to know god, if there is a god, you WOULD do well to see what he has done, and do your best to understand it.

The quote is poetic and the imagery effectively aims to evoke awe. It most likely will for anyone who finds beauty in the universe. The problem with it is that it has a glaring logical fallacy obvious to anyone familiar with logic. It assumes the conclusion (or "begs the question"). The imagery evokes the "works of god" only if it is first assumed that there is a god that did it rather than the amazing and pleasing complexity generated by the natural laws of nature. A naturalist is just as awed by the sublime beauty of the universe as is the religious are who see it as god's work.

 

[Atheos]

The quote is poetic and the imagery effectively aims to evoke awe. It most likely will for anyone who finds beauty in the universe. The problem with it is that it has a glaring logical fallacy obvious to anyone familiar with logic. It assumes the conclusion (or "begs the question"). The imagery evokes the "works of god" only if it is first assumed that there is a god that did it rather than the amazing and pleasing complexity generated by the natural laws of nature. A naturalist is just as awed by the sublime beauty of the universe as is the religious are who see it as god's work.

Pretty much the same thing can be said about one of the more famous apologetic passages in the bible:

Romans 1:20 - For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; that they are without excuse

Without excuse as long as one begs the question about whether or not this (or any) god has testable proof of ownership. Or even testable proof of existence for that matter. Seems like such a pesky little detail but without it any other claims can be dismissed without prejudice. Claimants are free to come back and assert further claims when they've got the proof of ownership.

 

[Jarhyn]

I have been on a long road around belief and religion and living honestly in the universe.

I see that quote, and honestly, if there is a god, it is spot on. It is so correct it hurts, in fact. But most importantly, it is more correct than the author gives themselves time for.

If you want to know the mind of god, if you believe such a thing exists, you must actually look at the things you can see that he has done. Don't look at the works of men. Look at the things the universe does, and the rules of it, and the ways it operates.

If you do this, you will understand something very important: of there is a god, that God wants you to doubt your beliefs as vigorously as possible. How can I say this? The universe expresses a relationship, and if there is a god, he is the author of that relationship, and that relationship I am talking about is the fact that doubt works: people who doubt their beliefs have more progress, growth, and success than those who do not.

Second, God wants you to accept the truth of Evolution, an old universe, and their non-intervention. Why can I say this? Because there are relationships in the universe that unequivocally show that the universe is old, that life is related to a common ancestor, and that that common ancestor arose billions of years ago. You can test it, do the math, use the reason god, if they exist, ensured would emerge in you to work it out.

Math, science, ethics, philosophy, logic, these all yield answers and function and value to living the only life we can be sure to get. The benefits of accepting the relationships that these approaches reveal within the universe is undeniable. They are real. And if the universe is the spoken word of God, their functional benefit is a message: figure it out, doubt your conclusions, and work on making them better.

Likewise there are other undeniable facts of the universe: sometimes people lie. Sometimes they lie about talking to god, even. Sometimes they say useful things with useless bullshit mixed in.

If there is a god they have written some fairly clear messages for anyone with the honesty to read and understand them. They are not written in books but in real relationships that exist as a result of the fundamental structure of the universe.

If you wish to know god, if there is a god, you WOULD do well to see what he has done, and do your best to understand it.

The quote is poetic and the imagery effectively aims to evoke awe. It most likely will for anyone who finds beauty in the universe. The problem with it is that it has a glaring logical fallacy obvious to anyone familiar with logic. It assumes the conclusion (or "begs the question"). The imagery evokes the "works of god" only if it is first assumed that there is a god that did it rather than the amazing and pleasing complexity generated by the natural laws of nature. A naturalist is just as awed by the sublime beauty of the universe as is the religious are who see it as god's work.

Which is my point, I guess, when combined with my identification of ethics as a thing requiring work, and which itself works: who needs gods to discover from whence comes piety? What is right works whether or not a god exists to define it as such. It is, as a product of this, not a product of that.

We can be good to each other without a God. Should, in fact, be good to each other: being good to each other still benefits us, perhaps not in the next life but certainly it does in this one.

 

[DBT]

I have been on a long road around belief and religion and living honestly in the universe.

I see that quote, and honestly, if there is a god, it is spot on. It is so correct it hurts, in fact. But most importantly, it is more correct than the author gives themselves time for.

If you want to know the mind of god, if you believe such a thing exists, you must actually look at the things you can see that he has done. Don't look at the works of men. Look at the things the universe does, and the rules of it, and the ways it operates.

If you do this, you will understand something very important: of there is a god, that God wants you to doubt your beliefs as vigorously as possible. How can I say this? The universe expresses a relationship, and if there is a god, he is the author of that relationship, and that relationship I am talking about is the fact that doubt works: people who doubt their beliefs have more progress, growth, and success than those who do not.

Second, God wants you to accept the truth of Evolution, an old universe, and their non-intervention. Why can I say this? Because there are relationships in the universe that unequivocally show that the universe is old, that life is related to a common ancestor, and that that common ancestor arose billions of years ago. You can test it, do the math, use the reason god, if they exist, ensured would emerge in you to work it out.

Math, science, ethics, philosophy, logic, these all yield answers and function and value to living the only life we can be sure to get. The benefits of accepting the relationships that these approaches reveal within the universe is undeniable. They are real. And if the universe is the spoken word of God, their functional benefit is a message: figure it out, doubt your conclusions, and work on making them better.

Likewise there are other undeniable facts of the universe: sometimes people lie. Sometimes they lie about talking to god, even. Sometimes they say useful things with useless bullshit mixed in.

If there is a god they have written some fairly clear messages for anyone with the honesty to read and understand them. They are not written in books but in real relationships that exist as a result of the fundamental structure of the universe.

If you wish to know god, if there is a god, you WOULD do well to see what he has done, and do your best to understand it.

One pastor speaking to another...

Pastor JS - Hey, that was a really great sermon you just preached.
Pastor Anon - Thank you brother JS. That was the voice of God talking.
Pastor JS - Um... no, I've heard God. He is much better than THAT.

I wonder why, if God - whatever that is - exists and loves us as some claim, this God does not communicate with us openly and honestly?

 

[Learner]

God already did that, yet people still turned their backs to Him as the story goes... meaning, trying by ourselves we'll realise that we WILL need God when the time comes.

 

[abaddon]

God already did that

You mean in the Bible? That'd be a great example of the god NOT communicating openly and honestly.

... yet people still turned their backs to Him as the story goes...

Yeah, "as the story goes". Stories are just stories.

... meaning, trying by ourselves we'll realise that we WILL need God when the time comes.

Hm, so this was an attempt to clarify what you're saying?

When will we need God? What's "the time" that is coming? And how do you know any of it apart from mere stories?

 

[WAB]

Just curious here:

Jarhyn, have you read any Spinoza?

 

[DBT]

God already did that, yet people still turned their backs to Him as the story goes... meaning, trying by ourselves we'll realise that we WILL need God when the time comes.

We are told by others that God did that. We have not heard it from God. Always those who speak of behalf of their version of God...never God.

 

[Learner]

You mean in the Bible? That'd be a great example of the god NOT communicating openly and honestly.

Come on now,

You must know which God DBT was refering to? Who he was posting to?

Yeah, "as the story goes". Stories are just stories.

Yep. What's your favourite 'storiy' of famous people or historic events?

... meaning, trying by ourselves we'll realise that we WILL need God when the time comes.

Hm, so this was an attempt to clarify what you're saying?

When will we need God? What's "the time" that is coming? And how do you know any of it apart from mere stories?

You've already established it's from a book and must realise (long long ago), that asking a theist, anything about what God does ... is asking a theists biblical POV, getting an answer in that manner! (I was on about something like revelation btw)