Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Derec]

Some good news:

Hamas confirms the death of a top commander in Gaza after Israeli strike

Hamas on Sunday confirmed the death of a top commander in Gaza, a day after Israel said it had killed Raed Saad in a strike outside Gaza City.
The Hamas statement described Saad as the commander of its military manufacturing unit. Israel had described him as an architect of the Oct. 7, 2023, attack that sparked the war in Gaza, and asserted that he had been “engaged in rebuilding the terrorist organization” in a violation of the ceasefire that took effect two months ago.
Israel said it killed Saad after an explosive device detonated and wounded two soldiers in the territory’s south.

 

[laughing dog]

Standing up for what is right isn't mindless apolagia.

You confuse moral clarity with rational discussion. Kneejerk reactions that defy reality are mindless apologia.

Broad statements such as “Palestinians don’t respect rules” and “I don’t think Israel is guilty of a single Palestinian death in Gaza.” are two examples of mindless apologia.

I think western values, liberal democracy and personal freedoms are worth defending and fighting for. We have plenty of examples of radicalised brainwashed populations. The Germans under the Nazis weren't some subhuman monsters. They were just like us. Just part of a nation that had taken some wrong turns. Same deal with the Palestinians. FYI, de-radicalisation of Germany took a long time. The sunk cost fallacy made many Germans loyal Nazis well into the 1970'ies.

Fascist organisations use all the psychological tricks to control people, and make them willing tools for the overarching idea. Having a problem with that... isn't "kneejerk reactions".

Islamofascism isn't so much Islamic, as it is fascist. Just like the Germans, modern Islam has taken some ideological wrong turns and ended up here. Just like the Germans did under the Nazis.

Do you know who else didn't respect rules, Nazi Germans. They thought it was a sign of weakness. They think respecting human rights and respecting laws was a sign of western decadence. Nazi Germany and Islamist radicals have remarkably similar styles of rhetoric.

I'll tell you another unfortunate ideological wrong turn, the western left getting in bed with these Islamofascist monsters. The leftists today said the same thing before WW2, making excuses for Hitler.

We seem easily impressed by convinced fanatics. Islamists arent exactly subtle about what they want. It's nice that Hamas, following the 7/10 attack realised that it was a good move to remove the bit from their mission statement about murdering all Jews. But don't make the mistake of thinking Hamas is any different. It's not.

I don't like victim blaming. It's time to grow a spine.

The irony of that is overwhelming.

Stop defending mass murderers! The support for Hamas in this thread and on this forum is sickening imho. It's not cool.

More irony.

In other news, according to Israel’s data, instead of 600 trucks of daily aid entering Gaza, only 459 make it in. The entire world needs to up its efforts. “Entire” means everyone.

Israel is doing their best in an impossible situation. You are aware Hamas has alla along been trying to prevent Israel from feeding the Palestinians?

And they did manage to avert starvation in Gaza.

I notice how you don't take into account how many Palestinian lives were saved by being able to get food from other places than Hamas. Since Hamas was using the food distribution to control where Palestinians would be and therefore could use them as human shields.

Yes, Israel did manage to avert starvation in Gaza. I notice you didn’t take into account the cause(s) of the incipient famine.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Standing up for what is right isn't mindless apolagia.

You confuse moral clarity with rational discussion. Kneejerk reactions that defy reality are mindless apologia.

Broad statements such as “Palestinians don’t respect rules” and “I don’t think Israel is guilty of a single Palestinian death in Gaza.” are two examples of mindless apologia.

I think western values, liberal democracy and personal freedoms are worth defending and fighting for. We have plenty of examples of radicalised brainwashed populations. The Germans under the Nazis weren't some subhuman monsters. They were just like us. Just part of a nation that had taken some wrong turns. Same deal with the Palestinians. FYI, de-radicalisation of Germany took a long time. The sunk cost fallacy made many Germans loyal Nazis well into the 1970'ies.

Fascist organisations use all the psychological tricks to control people, and make them willing tools for the overarching idea. Having a problem with that... isn't "kneejerk reactions".

Islamofascism isn't so much Islamic, as it is fascist. Just like the Germans, modern Islam has taken some ideological wrong turns and ended up here. Just like the Germans did under the Nazis.

Do you know who else didn't respect rules, Nazi Germans. They thought it was a sign of weakness. They think respecting human rights and respecting laws was a sign of western decadence. Nazi Germany and Islamist radicals have remarkably similar styles of rhetoric.

I'll tell you another unfortunate ideological wrong turn, the western left getting in bed with these Islamofascist monsters. The leftists today said the same thing before WW2, making excuses for Hitler.

We seem easily impressed by convinced fanatics. Islamists arent exactly subtle about what they want. It's nice that Hamas, following the 7/10 attack realised that it was a good move to remove the bit from their mission statement about murdering all Jews. But don't make the mistake of thinking Hamas is any different. It's not.

I don't like victim blaming. It's time to grow a spine.

The irony of that is overwhelming.

Stop defending mass murderers! The support for Hamas in this thread and on this forum is sickening imho. It's not cool.

More irony.

Its sad that you think the victims are the perpetrators.

Its fascinating that the Jews keep losing the propaganda war for 2000 years. People just really like hating them.

In other news, according to Israel’s data, instead of 600 trucks of daily aid entering Gaza, only 459 make it in. The entire world needs to up its efforts. “Entire” means everyone.

Israel is doing their best in an impossible situation. You are aware Hamas has alla along been trying to prevent Israel from feeding the Palestinians?

And they did manage to avert starvation in Gaza.

I notice how you don't take into account how many Palestinian lives were saved by being able to get food from other places than Hamas. Since Hamas was using the food distribution to control where Palestinians would be and therefore could use them as human shields.

Yes, Israel did manage to avert starvation in Gaza. I notice you didn’t take into account the cause(s) of the incipient famine.

A cause of a non event? Like not playing tennis is a sport?

Hamas only said there was a famine. Gullible antisemites ate it up. Then there was an outrage over nothing.

No matter what Jews do to survive, everyone seems to hate them anyway. Why do you think that is?

 

[laughing dog]

Its sad that you think the victims are the perpetrators.

You are a font of irony these days.

Hamas only said there was a famine. Gullible antisemites ate it up. Then there was an outrage over nothing.

No matter what Jews do to survive, everyone seems to hate them anyway. Why do you think that is?

I don’t think it is. Everyone doesn’t hate them - at least not on this planet Earth.

BTW, I didn’t say there was a famine, so as usual, response was based on your imagination.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Its sad that you think the victims are the perpetrators.

You are a font of irony these days.

Hamas only said there was a famine. Gullible antisemites ate it up. Then there was an outrage over nothing.

No matter what Jews do to survive, everyone seems to hate them anyway. Why do you think that is?

I don’t think it is. Everyone doesn’t hate them - at least not on this planet Earth.

BTW, I didn’t say there was a famine, so as usual, response was based on your imagination.

If you didn’t think it was a famine or risk of a famine you would hardly have mentioned it.

Have you accepted that the idea if a famine was a Hamas plant story in order for them to reassert control where Palestinians got their food from? Or are you working on it?

Keep in mind the religious aspect. Accepting charity from non-Muslims is haram. So Israel needed to cut off all Hamas controlled food in order to minimise Palestinian casualties

 

[laughing dog]

Its sad that you think the victims are the perpetrators.

You are a font of irony these days.

Hamas only said there was a famine. Gullible antisemites ate it up. Then there was an outrage over nothing.

No matter what Jews do to survive, everyone seems to hate them anyway. Why do you think that is?

I don’t think it is. Everyone doesn’t hate them - at least not on this planet Earth.

BTW, I didn’t say there was a famine, so as usual, response was based on your imagination.

If you didn’t think it was a famine or risk of a famine you would hardly have mentioned it.

Wrong.

Have you accepted that the idea if a famine was a Hamas plant story in order for them to reassert control where Palestinians got their food from? Or are you working on it?

I didn’t accept the idea of a famine. An incipient famine means a famine is nearing.

]
Keep in mind the religious aspect. Accepting charity from non-Muslims is haram. So Israel needed to cut off all Hamas controlled food in order to minimise Palestinian casualties

If I thought I was a stupid ad you appear to think, I’d have killed myself already.
Really, that rationale would be hilarious if it wasn’t so transparently self-serving idiocy.

 

[ZiprHead]

"Criticism of the Israeli government is completely legitimate." - Gil Preuss - CEO Jewish Federation of Greater Washington

 

[Derec]

"Criticism of the Israeli government is completely legitimate." - Gil Preuss - CEO Jewish Federation of Greater Washington

In general, that is true. But that does not mean that any criticism of the Israeli government is legitimate.
It is not a legitimate criticism when Israel is singled out, and attacked for things any other country would do under similar circumstances - such as respond forcefully when attacked and when many of its citizens are brutally massacred and others are kidnapped.
When such criticism occurs over and over again against the only Jewish state, it is reasonable to conclude that the motivation is nothing more than gossamer-veiled antisemitism.

 

[laughing dog]

"Criticism of the Israeli government is completely legitimate." - Gil Preuss - CEO Jewish Federation of Greater Washington

In general, that is true. But that does not mean that any criticism of the Israeli government is legitimate.
It is not a legitimate criticism when Israel is singled out, and attacked for things any other country would do under similar circumstances - such as respond forcefully when attacked and when many of its citizens are brutally massacred and others are kidnapped.

The key criteria are "any other country would do under similar circumstances" and "respond forcefully". Reasonable people can disagree what those mean operationally. Such disagreements are not necessarily indicative of anti-semitism, despite the claims of at least one poster in this thread.

 

[DrZoidberg]

"Criticism of the Israeli government is completely legitimate." - Gil Preuss - CEO Jewish Federation of Greater Washington

In general, that is true. But that does not mean that any criticism of the Israeli government is legitimate.
It is not a legitimate criticism when Israel is singled out, and attacked for things any other country would do under similar circumstances - such as respond forcefully when attacked and when many of its citizens are brutally massacred and others are kidnapped.

The key criteria are "any other country would do under similar circumstances" and "respond forcefully". Reasonable people can disagree what those mean operationally. Such disagreements are not necessarily indicative of anti-semitism, despite the claims of at least one poster in this thread.

I think it comes down to an understanding of the political situation in the Middle-East. Especially understanding the Islamic cultures of the area.

We, in the west, often make the mistake of just assuming that the Arabs think like westerners (or Israelis). Or are motivated by the same things. We often make the mistake of thinking that the Muslims are responding to Israeli provocation. We often don't understand that Arabs have a very loose relationship with the truth, and when it comes to propaganda, have no cultural limits on what they can say. It's just a question of winning.

The west is a product of 300 years of liberal brain washing. So are Israelis, for most part.

Yes, it's legitimate to criticise Israel. But when you do so without understanding what Israel is up against, then it will often come across as antisemitism.

Isaelis are about 10 000 000. Arabs around it 600 000 000. Many Islamist fanatics. And if you count the entire Muslim world, it's a billion. Which is fair to do, since people all over the entire Muslim world send money to various extremely well funded anti-Israeli Islamist groups. Add to that all the Jew hating westerners. The Holocaust didn't come out of nowhere, and we certainly seem to have forgotten that lesson.

Add to that the double standards applied to Israel. Jews are judged much harder for their actions. That's just straight up antisemitism. It really isn't Israel's fault that Hamas uses their own population as human shields. But they're blamed for their deaths when they retaliate. That's not a legitimate criticism.

Neither is it a legitimate criticism to accuse Israel of genocide or starving the Gazans. I have not forgotten how many people in this thread were convinced that was going on.

The world has a huge antisemitism problem. As do we on this forum. That's what Israel is up against.

So sure, it's legitimate to criticise Israel. Just try to criticise them of a questionable thing they've actually done. There's plenty. Not the bullshit accusations, that keep flying, here and elsewhere.

 

[laughing dog]

"Criticism of the Israeli government is completely legitimate." - Gil Preuss - CEO Jewish Federation of Greater Washington

In general, that is true. But that does not mean that any criticism of the Israeli government is legitimate.
It is not a legitimate criticism when Israel is singled out, and attacked for things any other country would do under similar circumstances - such as respond forcefully when attacked and when many of its citizens are brutally massacred and others are kidnapped.

The key criteria are "any other country would do under similar circumstances" and "respond forcefully". Reasonable people can disagree what those mean operationally. Such disagreements are not necessarily indicative of anti-semitism, despite the claims of at least one poster in this thread.

I think it comes down to an understanding of the political situation in the Middle-East. Especially understanding the Islamic cultures of the area.

We, in the west, often make the mistake of just assuming that the Arabs think like westerners (or Israelis). Or are motivated by the same things. We often make the mistake of thinking that the Muslims are responding to Israeli provocation. We often don't understand that Arabs have a very loose relationship with the truth, and when it comes to propaganda, have no cultural limits on what they can say. It's just a question of winning.

The west is a product of 300 years of liberal brain washing. So are Israelis, for most part.

Yes, it's legitimate to criticise Israel. But when you do so without understanding what Israel is up against, then it will often come across as antisemitism.

Isaelis are about 10 000 000. Arabs around it 600 000 000. Many Islamist fanatics. And if you count the entire Muslim world, it's a billion. Which is fair to do, since people all over the entire Muslim world send money to various extremely well funded anti-Israeli Islamist groups. Add to that all the Jew hating westerners. The Holocaust didn't come out of nowhere, and we certainly seem to have forgotten that lesson.

Add to that the double standards applied to Israel. Jews are judged much harder for their actions. That's just straight up antisemitism. It really isn't Israel's fault that Hamas uses their own population as human shields. But they're blamed for their deaths when they retaliate. That's not a legitimate criticism.

Neither is it a legitimate criticism to accuse Israel of genocide or starving the Gazans. I have not forgotten how many people in this thread were convinced that was going on.

The world has a huge antisemitism problem. As do we on this forum. That's what Israel is up against.

So sure, it's legitimate to criticise Israel. Just try to criticise them of a questionable thing they've actually done. There's plenty. Not the bullshit accusations, that keep flying, here and elsewhere.

It’s not just the Arabs who have very loose relationship with the truth, as your post shows.

Withholding food and medicine for 3 months is questionable is behavior. Engaging in ethnic cleansing is questionable behavior. And questioning such behavior by Israel is not antisemitism.

 

[DrZoidberg]

"Criticism of the Israeli government is completely legitimate." - Gil Preuss - CEO Jewish Federation of Greater Washington

In general, that is true. But that does not mean that any criticism of the Israeli government is legitimate.
It is not a legitimate criticism when Israel is singled out, and attacked for things any other country would do under similar circumstances - such as respond forcefully when attacked and when many of its citizens are brutally massacred and others are kidnapped.

The key criteria are "any other country would do under similar circumstances" and "respond forcefully". Reasonable people can disagree what those mean operationally. Such disagreements are not necessarily indicative of anti-semitism, despite the claims of at least one poster in this thread.

I think it comes down to an understanding of the political situation in the Middle-East. Especially understanding the Islamic cultures of the area.

We, in the west, often make the mistake of just assuming that the Arabs think like westerners (or Israelis). Or are motivated by the same things. We often make the mistake of thinking that the Muslims are responding to Israeli provocation. We often don't understand that Arabs have a very loose relationship with the truth, and when it comes to propaganda, have no cultural limits on what they can say. It's just a question of winning.

The west is a product of 300 years of liberal brain washing. So are Israelis, for most part.

Yes, it's legitimate to criticise Israel. But when you do so without understanding what Israel is up against, then it will often come across as antisemitism.

Isaelis are about 10 000 000. Arabs around it 600 000 000. Many Islamist fanatics. And if you count the entire Muslim world, it's a billion. Which is fair to do, since people all over the entire Muslim world send money to various extremely well funded anti-Israeli Islamist groups. Add to that all the Jew hating westerners. The Holocaust didn't come out of nowhere, and we certainly seem to have forgotten that lesson.

Add to that the double standards applied to Israel. Jews are judged much harder for their actions. That's just straight up antisemitism. It really isn't Israel's fault that Hamas uses their own population as human shields. But they're blamed for their deaths when they retaliate. That's not a legitimate criticism.

Neither is it a legitimate criticism to accuse Israel of genocide or starving the Gazans. I have not forgotten how many people in this thread were convinced that was going on.

The world has a huge antisemitism problem. As do we on this forum. That's what Israel is up against.

So sure, it's legitimate to criticise Israel. Just try to criticise them of a questionable thing they've actually done. There's plenty. Not the bullshit accusations, that keep flying, here and elsewhere.

It’s not just the Arabs who have very loose relationship with the truth, as your post shows.

Withholding food and medicine for 3 months is questionable is behavior. Engaging in ethnic cleansing is questionable behavior. And questioning such behavior by Israel is not antisemitism.

Well, calling it ethnic cleansing certainly is antisemitism. There's not even a grey area there

 

[laughing dog]

"Criticism of the Israeli government is completely legitimate." - Gil Preuss - CEO Jewish Federation of Greater Washington

In general, that is true. But that does not mean that any criticism of the Israeli government is legitimate.
It is not a legitimate criticism when Israel is singled out, and attacked for things any other country would do under similar circumstances - such as respond forcefully when attacked and when many of its citizens are brutally massacred and others are kidnapped.

The key criteria are "any other country would do under similar circumstances" and "respond forcefully". Reasonable people can disagree what those mean operationally. Such disagreements are not necessarily indicative of anti-semitism, despite the claims of at least one poster in this thread.

I think it comes down to an understanding of the political situation in the Middle-East. Especially understanding the Islamic cultures of the area.

We, in the west, often make the mistake of just assuming that the Arabs think like westerners (or Israelis). Or are motivated by the same things. We often make the mistake of thinking that the Muslims are responding to Israeli provocation. We often don't understand that Arabs have a very loose relationship with the truth, and when it comes to propaganda, have no cultural limits on what they can say. It's just a question of winning.

The west is a product of 300 years of liberal brain washing. So are Israelis, for most part.

Yes, it's legitimate to criticise Israel. But when you do so without understanding what Israel is up against, then it will often come across as antisemitism.

Isaelis are about 10 000 000. Arabs around it 600 000 000. Many Islamist fanatics. And if you count the entire Muslim world, it's a billion. Which is fair to do, since people all over the entire Muslim world send money to various extremely well funded anti-Israeli Islamist groups. Add to that all the Jew hating westerners. The Holocaust didn't come out of nowhere, and we certainly seem to have forgotten that lesson.

Add to that the double standards applied to Israel. Jews are judged much harder for their actions. That's just straight up antisemitism. It really isn't Israel's fault that Hamas uses their own population as human shields. But they're blamed for their deaths when they retaliate. That's not a legitimate criticism.

Neither is it a legitimate criticism to accuse Israel of genocide or starving the Gazans. I have not forgotten how many people in this thread were convinced that was going on.

The world has a huge antisemitism problem. As do we on this forum. That's what Israel is up against.

So sure, it's legitimate to criticise Israel. Just try to criticise them of a questionable thing they've actually done. There's plenty. Not the bullshit accusations, that keep flying, here and elsewhere.

It’s not just the Arabs who have very loose relationship with the truth, as your post shows.

Withholding food and medicine for 3 months is questionable is behavior. Engaging in

Well, calling it ethnic cleansing certainly is antisemitism. There's not even a grey area there

There is no gray area: what is going on in the West Bank is ethnic cleansing.

Defense of that ethnic cleansing is bigoted moral bankruptcy. There is gray area there.

 

[DrZoidberg]

"Criticism of the Israeli government is completely legitimate." - Gil Preuss - CEO Jewish Federation of Greater Washington

In general, that is true. But that does not mean that any criticism of the Israeli government is legitimate.
It is not a legitimate criticism when Israel is singled out, and attacked for things any other country would do under similar circumstances - such as respond forcefully when attacked and when many of its citizens are brutally massacred and others are kidnapped.

The key criteria are "any other country would do under similar circumstances" and "respond forcefully". Reasonable people can disagree what those mean operationally. Such disagreements are not necessarily indicative of anti-semitism, despite the claims of at least one poster in this thread.

I think it comes down to an understanding of the political situation in the Middle-East. Especially understanding the Islamic cultures of the area.

We, in the west, often make the mistake of just assuming that the Arabs think like westerners (or Israelis). Or are motivated by the same things. We often make the mistake of thinking that the Muslims are responding to Israeli provocation. We often don't understand that Arabs have a very loose relationship with the truth, and when it comes to propaganda, have no cultural limits on what they can say. It's just a question of winning.

The west is a product of 300 years of liberal brain washing. So are Israelis, for most part.

Yes, it's legitimate to criticise Israel. But when you do so without understanding what Israel is up against, then it will often come across as antisemitism.

Isaelis are about 10 000 000. Arabs around it 600 000 000. Many Islamist fanatics. And if you count the entire Muslim world, it's a billion. Which is fair to do, since people all over the entire Muslim world send money to various extremely well funded anti-Israeli Islamist groups. Add to that all the Jew hating westerners. The Holocaust didn't come out of nowhere, and we certainly seem to have forgotten that lesson.

Add to that the double standards applied to Israel. Jews are judged much harder for their actions. That's just straight up antisemitism. It really isn't Israel's fault that Hamas uses their own population as human shields. But they're blamed for their deaths when they retaliate. That's not a legitimate criticism.

Neither is it a legitimate criticism to accuse Israel of genocide or starving the Gazans. I have not forgotten how many people in this thread were convinced that was going on.

The world has a huge antisemitism problem. As do we on this forum. That's what Israel is up against.

So sure, it's legitimate to criticise Israel. Just try to criticise them of a questionable thing they've actually done. There's plenty. Not the bullshit accusations, that keep flying, here and elsewhere.

It’s not just the Arabs who have very loose relationship with the truth, as your post shows.

Withholding food and medicine for 3 months is questionable is behavior. Engaging in

Well, calling it ethnic cleansing certainly is antisemitism. There's not even a grey area there

There is no gray area: what is going on in the West Bank is ethnic cleansing.

Defense of that ethnic cleansing is bigoted moral bankruptcy. There is gray area there.

This conversation is over. Enjoy your racist hate.

 

[laughing dog]

There is no gray area: what is going on in the West Bank is ethnic cleansing.

Defense of that ethnic cleansing is bigoted moral bankruptcy. There is gray area there.

This conversation is over. Enjoy your racist hate.
[/QUOTE] More projection and unintended irony.

Facts are not hateful.