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Eliminating Qualia

The brain is the central organ of the nervous system.

Just sayin'.

I was convinced some years ago that it’s equally helpfully thought of as a gland and the central organ of the endocrine system. Whatever it is, all it is doing is tending towards the lowest energy state...
 
I was convinced some years ago that it’s equally helpfully thought of as a gland and the central organ of the endocrine system.

And perhaps we are back with the pros and cons, limitations and advantages, of taxonomy. :)

Whatever it is, all it is doing is tending towards the lowest energy state...

That makes intuitive (and evolutionary) sense, even if I probably don't understand it fully, or even perhaps very well.
 
I was convinced some years ago that it’s equally helpfully thought of as a gland and the central organ of the endocrine system.

And perhaps we are back with the pros and cons, limitations and advantages, of taxonomy. :)

Whatever it is, all it is doing is tending towards the lowest energy state...

That makes intuitive (and evolutionary) sense, even if I probably don't understand it fully, or even perhaps very well.

It’s the same process that makes ponds fit the hole and mostly flat. That’s basically the only overdetermined process evolution has to work with. It’s always good to remember it’s been working on it for billions of years...

For a while, in the eighties our most interesting stochastic learning algorithms simulated annealing in spin glasses. Imagine a really tidy jelly setting in a mould then taking the shape and holding it. Now imagine a jelly mould shaped by a billion years or two of eliminating the mould and jelly that didn’t cut it. Then, in the last half a million years throwing language in the mix and then, in the last ten thousand throwing intentionality into a very old mix.. All this agent level talk forgets that brains are physical systems and intentions are logical systems and the two have less than fuck all in common beyond wobbling a bit when shaken.
 
My position is the nervous system exists and so does the brain.

The brain is not a specific thing.

? ?

Of course it is. My brain is a very specific thing. And so is yours. Unless you're a machine without a brain.

Are ya? A machine with no brain, I mean? That would suck.

Please forgive my silliness.

Of course the words "the brain" do not denote any actual entity, but refer to the concept of a brain, at least in the context of your sentence. See nominalism.
 
rolling

All this agent level talk forgets that brains are physical systems and intentions are logical systems and the two have less than fuck all in common beyond wobbling a bit when shaken.

Imma steal that one too.

You people in forn cuntrees talk funny! /gunslinginin' Mercan asshat :moonie:









[Couldn't find the hat...]
 
BBED448A-9893-4B0B-B587-2404C847BE5A.jpeg
BA7E9B7C-5048-40F3-9825-9C88BDAB8FF6.jpeg
Not a specific thing. You are making category errors. Repeatedly. Stop it.
 
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My position is the nervous system exists and so does the brain.

The brain is not a specific thing.

? ?

Of course it is. My brain is a very specific thing. And so is yours. Unless you're a machine without a brain.

Are ya? A machine with no brain, I mean? That would suck.

Please forgive my silliness.

Of course the words "the brain" do not denote any actual entity, but refer to the concept of a brain, at least in the context of your sentence. See nominalism.

I think Koy would rather see mereology.

I assume everyone is familiar with Ryle’s ‘category error’ argument that Koy appears to be reprising? If not...
 
Abstract

''Finally, we derived an expression for the variance of the neural spike count that leads to a stable propagation of signal and noise in networks of neurons---that is, conditions that do not impose an accumulation or diminution of noise. The solution implies that single neurons perform simple algebra resembling averaging, and that more sophisticated computations arise by virtue of the anatomical convergence of novel combinations of inputs to the cortical column from external sources.''
 
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Not a specific thing. You are making category errors. Repeatedly. Stop it.

No, how about you stop it?

The brain is an organ. I don't care if you want to call it a "thing" or not, in fact I couldn't care less and am growing ever more baffled at the endless monotony of these threads. The brain is a specific, single organ, composed of parts, like every "thing" else. You have your brain, I have my brain. This is not rocket science.

What you're doing is what empiricists love to do, and have loved doing, for ages: since the objective world is made up of atoms in constant motion, with mostly space between particles, therefore there is no such thing as a real solid object: everything is dynamic and in constant flux (which is objectively true). Therefore, if you look at the edge of a knife under an extremely powerful microscope, you don't see a sharp, incisive edge, but something quite different in appearance, something more distributed and diffuse. There are some amazing photos of extremely sharp edges that look like you could drive a Ford F-150 on top of them. Beautiful images.

Well, now we can pretend that there are no really solid objects in the world, since every thing is matter in dynamic, fluid motion, therefore there are not really any discrete objects. It doesn't matter that putting a scalpel to your wrist will cause your flesh to open up and your blood to spill out: this is in no way proof that your wrist and the knife blade are discrete objects. It just feels that way, it's an "impression" (thanks to the naked emperor, David Hume) which our brains interpret in a certain way which, in the case of the incision, comes with a ruthlessley efficient alarm system called pain. Nature can be a bitch that way.

Have you read The Ego Tunnel, by Thomas Metzinger? There was a thread, or many threads, about that book years ago, in which I, and others, argued with a Berkeleyan idealist, and other idealists, who was fascinated with his recent findings, which led him to realize that he could no longer trust his senses, and that he could no longer think of himself as a self, since Metzinger had magnanimously announced that no such thing as a self existed (which of course thinkers had been thinking about thousands of years ago, which it may not have occurred to Metzinger to actually check).

While I may not hold to the common sense "proofs" of objective reality, such as offered by Thomas Reid, and in contemporary times John Searle and G.E. Moore, I do think they offer a much better (a popular, and nicely classist and derogatory "folk") description of the world, which is actually useful to most human beings, like untermensche, who work in the world with other human beings and are forced, by necessity, (not to mention HIPAA laws) to deal with reality as it is and resist whipping up splendid castles in the air for their egocentric entertainment.

In my career in healthcare, nursing homes, assisted livings, hospitals, I have had to deal with real people in real situations, often entailing great discomfort and pain. I DO NOT give a fat rat's booty about the latest flighty, spoiled, academic theorist's navel-gazing speculations about how the world really is to us simple dummies down in the trenches.

Searle was right when he said that empirical scientists and philosophers sometimes say "some appalling things". It is a much better world that some brave people are audacious enough not to be a flock of gullible sheep and allow intellectual elitists to explain the world to them. Most people can figure things out all on their own.

Lastly, unless you own the joint, or are an admin, or a moderator, please refrain from telling me what to do, whether it be to stop it, or whatever. If you tell me not to do something, I will take that as a request to continue doing that very thing.

I will admit I may have made a category error. I shall look into it and see. Please bear in mind, I've forgotten most of what I ever knew about this stuff. It gets really tough at times.
 
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? ?

Of course it is. My brain is a very specific thing. And so is yours. Unless you're a machine without a brain.

Are ya? A machine with no brain, I mean? That would suck.

Please forgive my silliness.

Of course the words "the brain" do not denote any actual entity, but refer to the concept of a brain, at least in the context of your sentence. See nominalism.

I think Koy would rather see mereology.

I assume everyone is familiar with Ryle’s ‘category error’ argument that Koy appears to be reprising? If not...

Sub: I notice we cross-posted. As for the whole and its parts stuff, I believe I recently started a thread in which I went on and on about my thoughts on that? Or did I dream it? I rather like the whole "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts" idea. DBT, Speakie I think, and many others had a time with that notion years ago (to no-one's satisfaction of course).

I even whipped out my then nifty and super-dooper metaphysico-theologico-cosmologico-bellybuttonal theory wherein I unloaded the phrase, as a definition of God [bear with me...] :

God is the Greatest Whole That is Greater Than the Sum of its Parts.

I have the whole twenty or so pages of my linty gleanings on my blog, and I like to look back at it as a reminder to myself to try and maintain my precarious grasp on reality, whatever the actual all holy or unholy fuck that might be.

See, I am trying to talk like you. Can I be your apostle and follow you around, jotting down your pearls of wisdom? I like to write, and this time Imma get everything down exactly correctly, no fooling around. Did you notice I am now Percy Shelley? I look pretty sharp, no?

OH! and I have twice misattributed his famous quote ('Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world') to The Necessity of Atheism, when it is actually from his Defence of Poetry. Gracias to you and Cop for not pantsing me on that one.
 
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Not a specific thing. You are making category errors. Repeatedly. Stop it.

No, how about you stop it?

The brain is an organ. I don't care if you want to call it a "thing" or not, in fact I couldn't care less and am growing ever more baffled at the endless monotony of these threads. The brain is a specific, single organ, composed of parts, like every "thing" else. You have your brain, I have my brain. This is not rocket science.

What you're doing is what empiricists love to do, and have loved doing, for ages: since the objective world is made up of atoms in constant motion, with mostly space between particles, therefore there is no such thing as a real solid object: everything is dynamic and in constant flux (which is objectively true). Therefore, if you look at the edge of a knife under an extremely powerful microscope, you don't see a sharp, incisive edge, but something quite different in appearance, something more distributed and diffuse. There are some amazing photos of extremely sharp edges that look like you could drive a Ford F-150 on top of them. Beautiful images.

Well, now we can pretend that there are no really solid objects in the world, since every thing is matter in dynamic, fluid motion, therefore there are not really any discrete objects. It doesn't matter that putting a scalpel to your wrist will cause your flesh to open up and your blood to spill out: this is in no way proof that your wrist and the knife blade are discrete objects. It just feels that way, it's an "impression" (thanks to the naked emperor, David Hume) which our brains interpret in a certain way which, in the case of the incision, comes with a ruthlessley efficient alarm system called pain. Nature can be a bitch that way.

Have you read The Ego Tunnel, by Thomas Metzinger? There was a thread, or many threads, about that book years ago, in which I, and others, argued with a Berkeleyan idealist, and other idealists, who was fascinated with his recent findings, which led him to realize that he could no longer trust his senses, and that he could no longer think of himself as a self, since Metzinger had magnanimously announced that no such thing as a self existed (which of course thinkers had been thinking about thousands of years ago, which it may not have occurred to Metzinger to actually check).

While I may not hold to the common sense "proofs" of objective reality, such as offered by Thomas Reid, and in contemporary times John Searle and G.E. Moore, I do think they offer a much better (a popular, and nicely classist and derogatory "folk") description of the world, which is actually useful to most human beings, like untermensche, who work in the world with other human beings and are forced, by necessity, (not to mention HIPAA laws) to deal with reality as it is and resist whipping up splendid castles in the air for their egocentric entertainment.

In my career in healthcare, nursing homes, assisted livings, hospitals, I have had to deal with real people in real situations, often entailing great discomfort and pain. I DO NOT give a fat rat's booty about the latest flighty, spoiled, academic theorist's navel-gazing speculations about how the world really is to us simple dummies down in the trenches.

Searle was right when he said that empirical scientists and philosophers sometimes say "some appalling things". It is a much better world that some brave people are audacious enough not to be a flock of gullible sheep and allow intellectual elitists to explain the world to them. Most people can figure things out all on their own.

Lastly, unless you own the joint, or are an admin, or a moderator, please refrain from telling me what to do, whether it be to stop it, or whatever. If you tell me not to do something, I will take that as a request to continue doing that very thing.

I will admit I may have made a category error. I shall look into it and see. Please bear in mind, I've forgotten most of what I ever knew about this stuff. It gets really tough at times.

Except, of course, no one is saying folk psychology is an empirical theory, everyone who is saying anything about it, that’s me, as far as I can see, is saying explicitly that it is instrumental. We use it because it is of more practical use in the real world than any other strategy.

Also, who is trying to shut you up? A link perhaps?
 
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Not a specific thing. You are making category errors. Repeatedly. Stop it.

No, how about you stop it?

The brain is an organ. I don't care if you want to call it a "thing" or not, in fact I couldn't care less and am growing ever more baffled at the endless monotony of these threads. The brain is a specific, single organ, composed of parts, like every "thing" else. You have your brain, I have my brain. This is not rocket science.

What you're doing is what empiricists love to do, and have loved doing, for ages: since the objective world is made up of atoms in constant motion, with mostly space between particles, therefore there is no such thing as a real solid object: everything is dynamic and in constant flux (which is objectively true). Therefore, if you look at the edge of a knife under an extremely powerful microscope, you don't see a sharp, incisive edge, but something quite different in appearance, something more distributed and diffuse. There are some amazing photos of extremely sharp edges that look like you could drive a Ford F-150 on top of them. Beautiful images.

Well, now we can pretend that there are no really solid objects in the world, since every thing is matter in dynamic, fluid motion, therefore there are not really any discrete objects. It doesn't matter that putting a scalpel to your wrist will cause your flesh to open up and your blood to spill out: this is in no way proof that your wrist and the knife blade are discrete objects. It just feels that way, it's an "impression" (thanks to the naked emperor, David Hume) which our brains interpret in a certain way which, in the case of the incision, comes with a ruthlessley efficient alarm system called pain. Nature can be a bitch that way.

Have you read The Ego Tunnel, by Thomas Metzinger? There was a thread, or many threads, about that book years ago, in which I, and others, argued with a Berkeleyan idealist, and other idealists, who was fascinated with his recent findings, which led him to realize that he could no longer trust his senses, and that he could no longer think of himself as a self, since Metzinger had magnanimously announced that no such thing as a self existed (which of course thinkers had been thinking about thousands of years ago, which it may not have occurred to Metzinger to actually check).

While I may not hold to the common sense "proofs" of objective reality, such as offered by Thomas Reid, and in contemporary times John Searle and G.E. Moore, I do think they offer a much better (a popular, and nicely classist and derogatory "folk") description of the world, which is actually useful to most human beings, like untermensche, who work in the world with other human beings and are forced, by necessity, (not to mention HIPAA laws) to deal with reality as it is and resist whipping up splendid castles in the air for their egocentric entertainment.

In my career in healthcare, nursing homes, assisted livings, hospitals, I have had to deal with real people in real situations, often entailing great discomfort and pain. I DO NOT give a fat rat's booty about the latest flighty, spoiled, academic theorist's navel-gazing speculations about how the world really is to us simple dummies down in the trenches.

Searle was right when he said that empirical scientists and philosophers sometimes say "some appalling things". It is a much better world that some brave people are audacious enough not to be a flock of gullible sheep and allow intellectual elitists to explain the world to them. Most people can figure things out all on their own.

Lastly, unless you own the joint, or are an admin, or a moderator, please refrain from telling me what to do, whether it be to stop it, or whatever. If you tell me not to do something, I will take that as a request to continue doing that very thing.

I will admit I may have made a category error. I shall look into it and see. Please bear in mind, I've forgotten most of what I ever knew about this stuff. It gets really tough at times.

Except, of course, no one is saying folk psychology is an empirical theory, everyone who is saying anything about it, that’s me, as far as I can see, is saying explicitly that it is instrumental. We use it because it is of more practical use in the real world than any other strategy.

Also, who is trying to shut you up? A link perhaps?

Again, sorry.

I assumed this was for me, from Koy's post with the brain graphic:

Not a specific thing. You are making category errors. Repeatedly. Stop it:

I thought it might be directed at untermensche, but my post, just prior to Koy's, argued that the brain indeed was a specific "thing", etc.

Koy: sorry for all my blather, UNLESS your "stop it" was for me, in which case, I would only repeat:

No, how about you stop it?

*

Sub: First, obviously, no-one is saying folk psychology is an empirical theory. Wherever did you get the notion that I thought anyone was? If I have implied that, it was not intentional, I assure you.

In my posts I am not simply referring to recent threads, but to an ongoing trend (which I noticed even shortly after I began here in 2004, for scientists and what I will call "sciency types" for want of a better word, to disregard opinion ventured by virtually anyone who was outside the academy, or the professionally "schooled" disciplines, ie professions one only went into, by and large, by virtue of a university education.

While I hate to name names, in most cases, since it seems rather silly and petty, I may as well because in the case of ____ , s/he and I have managed to come to a civil relationship over our long interaction and I know S/he has a big heart and does not mean anything S/he says to be even remotely offensive; and in the case of _____, S/he doesn't consider my opinion on anything to be very useful or valid.

In fact, I suspect S/he believes that —

by posting a few objects that resemble poems in the poetry thread (not to mention a hand-waving and crudely dismissive mention of [insert famous poet here], who's shoes, in the realm of poetry, S/he is not worthy of shining) in another particular thread, which was a direct, if rather shamelessly veiled, attack upon me, since, not very long ago, I posted a famous [insert poem title here] by [insert poet here], along with a good poem of my own, which was admired and applauded by many literary lights at Eratosphere,​

—S/he is thereby equally qualified to comment on the arts as well as science.

BWAHHAAAAHAAAAAAAHHAA!!!!!!

Then of course there is _____ who has one of the most easily offended egos I've ever encountered, who, if S/he has not actually used the word 'folk', has demonstrated contempt for anyone who insists on believing in God, or for that matter any pseudoscientific theory and likes to call such people morons, despite having been repeatedly shown that ad homs and such argumentation are beneath most of us folk, and certainly beneath him/her.

I have had something of a breakthrough with ____ at least in private, and I have found him/her to be quite a fine and decent human being, despite our history of locking horns and disagreement; whereas with _____, I am at a loss, since S/he and I don't interact much.

I don't know if _____, _____, or _____ have made a great use of the word "folk", but they almost certainly defend science against the less rigorous views of artsy-fartsy types, which is okay, but only with respect to science, and is manifestly NOT okay with respect to history, social studies, and least of all, the arts.

I don't mind your, Sub, use of the word folk, nor of ruby's, nor of Cop's, and in fact I think all three of you are making a huge impact toward change and understanding at TFF. And, because of your liking of poetry, and especially my greatest inspiration in the world of letters, Percy Shelley, I have developed a certain affection toward you. Don't be frightened, it ain't like that! It's not a man-crush. Most of the old-timers here know my big man-crush is on Johnny Depp. lol.

There is some potentially good news: after today my computer access will be limited, if not altogether gone, until I come out of my stint in the mental hospital. I may be able to make some sporadic posts over the next few days, but my spate of manic and big posts will slow down and eventually peter out.

Wish me well. I have a tough road ahead of me, and given my history, if I crash again, there may be no coming back up. It happens.

:joy:
 
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Except, of course, no one is saying folk psychology is an empirical theory, everyone who is saying anything about it, that’s me, as far as I can see, is saying explicitly that it is instrumental. We use it because it is of more practical use in the real world than any other strategy.

Also, who is trying to shut you up? A link perhaps?

Again, sorry.

I assumed this was for me, from Koy's post with the brain graphic:

Not a specific thing. You are making category errors. Repeatedly. Stop it:

I thought it might be directed at untermensche, but my post, just prior to Koy's, argued that the brain indeed was a specific "thing", etc.

Koy: sorry for all my blather, UNLESS your "stop it" was for me, in which case, I would only repeat:

No, how about you stop it?

*

Sub: In my posts I am not simply referring to recent threads, but to an ongoing trend (which I noticed even shortly after I began here in 2004, for scientists and what I will call "sciency types" for want of a better word, to disregard opinion ventured by virtually anyone who was outside the academy, or the professionally "schooled" disciplines, ie professions one only went into, by and large, by virtue of a university education.

While I hate to name names, in most cases, since it seems rather silly and petty, I may as well because in the case of ____ , s/he and I have managed to come to a civil relationship over our long interaction and I know S/he has a big heart and does not mean anything S/he says to be even remotely offensive; and in the case of _____, S/he doesn't consider my opinion on anything to be very useful or valid.

In fact, I suspect S/he believes that —

by posting a few objects that resemble poems in the poetry thread (not to mention a hand-waving and crudely dismissive mention of [insert famous poet here], who's shoes, in the realm of poetry, S/he is not worthy of shining] in another particular thread, which was a direct, if rather shamelessly veiled, attack upon me, since, not very long ago, I posted a famous [insert poem title here] by [insert poet here], along with a good poem of my own, which was admired and applauded by many literary lights at Eratosphere,​

—that S/he is thereby equally qualified to comment on the arts as well as science.

Then of course there is _____ who has one of the most easily offended egos I've ever encountered, who, if S/he has not actually used the word 'folk', has demonstrated contempt for anyone who insists on believing in God, or for that matter any pseudoscientific theory and likes to call such people morons, despite having been repeatedly shown that ad homs and such argumentation are beneath most of us folk, and certainly beneath him/her.

I have had something of a breakthrough with ____ at least in private, and I have found him/her to be quite a fine and decent human being, despite our history of locking horns and disagreement; whereas with _____, I am at a loss, since S/he and I don't interact much.

I don't know if _____, _____, or _____ have made a great use of the word "folk", but they almost certainly defend science against the less rigorous views of artsy-fartsy types, which is okay, but only with respect to science, and is manifestly NOT okay with respect to history, social studies, and least of all, the arts.

I don't mind your, Sub, use of the word folk, nor of ruby's, nor of Cop's, and in fact I think all three of you are making a huge impact toward change and understanding at TFF. And, because of your liking of poetry, and especially my greatest inspiration in the world of letters, Percy Shelley, I have developed a certain affection toward you. Don't be frightened, it ain't like that! It's not a man-crush. Most of the old-timers here know my big man-crush is on Johnny Depp. lol.

There is some potentially good news: after today my computer access will be limited, if not altogether gone, until I come out of my stint in the mental hospital. I may be able to make some sporadic posts over the next few days, but my spate of manic and big posts will slow down and eventually peter out.

Wish me well. I have a tough road ahead of me, and given my history, if I crash again, there may be no coming back up. It happens.

:joy:

In that case, good luck. When you get back, I’ll introduce you to holist and you can have proper man crush

Have some enigmatic music

https://soundcloud.com/holist
 
The brain is made up of many things.

fify

It's activity is many things. One of which is the mind. And another part are the things the mind can experience.

So, iow, the brain can experience itself. It generates both the "mind" and the "things" that its generation experiences, neither of which are "things" in the sense you keep equivocating. Regardless, you keep describing nothing but brain.

I know you want "mind" to be like something birthed from the brain--separate and distinct and somehow discrete like a new born baby--but it isn't any more than "juggling" is birthed from the activity of expert hand/eye coordination or "art" from moving a brush across a canvas.

You are doing nothing more than making basic category errors of equivocation. For what point? To mandate Pinnochio was a real boy all along; it was Geppetto that was made out of wood? No. It's simply false.
 
The brain is not the products of it's activity.

It is the instrument that yields the products.

A cello is not the music it produces.
 
The brain is not the products of it's activity.

It is the instrument that yields the products.

A cello is not the music it produces.

And slowly we see the errors of thought unpack themselves. A cello and all of the rest of the physical world involved in the music are, indeed, the music. Try to separate the Cello from all that and there is no music. The music is, for example, the position and length of each string in time and space, then the position of each air molecule in space and time and so on.

You couldn't give a better example of how wrong you are if you tried.

Substance dualism is a busted flush.
 
A cello and all of the rest of the physical world involved in the music are, indeed, the music.

No. The cello is the instrument.

The music is something that arises from an interaction between the instrument and the world.

It is a distinct creation.

It is neither the cello or the world. It is an organized "entity" in the world.
 
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