Dutch man, 69, who 'identifies as 20 years younger' launches legal battle to change age

[untermensche]

Some people need to be dragged into the modern world.

Yes children there are people born girls that live their lives as boys.

Stop crying about it.

Women that don't want to date old men have their reasons. They like sex.

 

[ruby sparks]

This sounds remarkably like an attempt to mock the transgendered while simultaneously ignoring a mountain of scientific evidence.

No it isn't. Personally, I like trans people of almost every description. I'm just not sure I could eat a whole one.

 

[ruby sparks]

To be serious for a moment,
[serious]I'm going with the same thing I've thought all my life: You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. Your current gender might be a matter of opinion, but past events are unlaterable facts; even if you currently identify as female, and may BE female FAPP, if you were born as a male, you used to be male. If you were born 69 years ago, that's an unalterable FACT.[/serious]

Yes, I tend to think it's about objective versus subjective. Non-psychological versus psychological might be another way of putting it.

I also have a sneaking suspicion that the degree to which someone is permitted (by others) to be one thing or another and as importantly (given that we live in societies) be recognised as such by others, might boil down to pragmatics and consequences, not principles. By which I mean that if changing your birth certificate had no substantial consequences, it would be more ok. We can change other 'facts' about us. We can become a muslim when we were previously a christian for example. We can become British when we previously were Irish (I did that, and I have a passport to prove it). In both cases, we can't, as you say change what was before though.

Alone on a desert island you would have a lot more freedom and choice to subjectively/psychologically 'be' more things than if you lived among other people. Though even there, if something you strongly felt you were conflicted with the physical reality around you, you would come a cropper.

The question of the degree to which someone can expect others to accept and recognise one's identities might still be interestingly blurry. If I am let's say 'biologically and physically'* male, but identify as female, can I use the female toilets, showers and changing rooms at the gym? That sort of thing.


* Temporarily setting aside that in the final analysis psychology, identity and subjectivity are arguably all biological and physical. Which could complicate matters.

 

[dismal]

It's not complicated: if someone identifies as [something] you need to treat them as if they are [something]. Or you're a racist nazi [something]-o-phobe.

Ok now I'm confused as to your position. I had been assuming you were deploying irony. Much as I hate to stop the sandwich analogy fun and get boring, do you agree with that (above) or are you quoting someone else with whom you disagree?

And/or, do you think that the 69 year old man in the OP should be allowed to officially change his date of birth?

If I follow the above principle to its logical conclusion then, yes, a person who identifies as 49 should be treated as if they are 49. Unless you're a racist nazi transageophobe (like untermensche), of course.

If the guy were here right now and said something like "hey, diz, I'm 49" I'd be like "oh, cool". It's not like it hurts me.

 

[ruby sparks]

It's not complicated: if someone identifies as [something] you need to treat them as if they are [something]. Or you're a racist nazi [something]-o-phobe.

Ok now I'm confused as to your position. I had been assuming you were deploying irony. Much as I hate to stop the sandwich analogy fun and get boring, do you agree with that (above) or are you quoting someone else with whom you disagree?

And/or, do you think that the 69 year old man in the OP should be allowed to officially change his date of birth?

If I follow the above principle to its logical conclusion then, yes, a person who identifies as 49 should be treated as if they are 49. Unless you're a racist nazi transageophobe (like untermensche), of course.

If the guy were here right now and said something like "hey, diz, I'm 49" I'd be like "oh, cool". It's not like it hurts me.

Yes, but you presumably don't agree he should formally or officially be recognised as 49, as in changing dates on paperwork, so that it would not be bigoted or transphobic anything to say, 'but you are not really 49', if you chose to (for whatever reason, depending on what your interaction with him entailed). And if he went on tinder and gave his age as 49, that would factually be a lie, yeah?

 

[untermensche]

It's not complicated: if someone identifies as [something] you need to treat them as if they are [something]. Or you're a racist nazi [something]-o-phobe.

Ok now I'm confused as to your position. I had been assuming you were deploying irony. Much as I hate to stop the sandwich analogy fun and get boring, do you agree with that (above) or are you quoting someone else with whom you disagree?

And/or, do you think that the 69 year old man in the OP should be allowed to officially change his date of birth?

If I follow the above principle to its logical conclusion then, yes, a person who identifies as 49 should be treated as if they are 49. Unless you're a racist nazi transageophobe (like untermensche), of course.

If the guy were here right now and said something like "hey, diz, I'm 49" I'd be like "oh, cool". It's not like it hurts me.

There is no principle.

There is a rare recognized human condition.

You take the line of argument of the bigot.

If a person feels young great. That is a reward in itself.

No lies need be told.

 

[RVonse]

It's not complicated: if someone identifies as [something] you need to treat them as if they are [something]. Or you're a racist nazi [something]-o-phobe.

Ok now I'm confused as to your position. I had been assuming you were deploying irony. Much as I hate to stop the sandwich analogy fun and get boring, do you agree with that (above) or are you quoting someone else with whom you disagree?

And/or, do you think that the 69 year old man in the OP should be allowed to officially change his date of birth?

If I follow the above principle to its logical conclusion then, yes, a person who identifies as 49 should be treated as if they are 49. Unless you're a racist nazi transageophobe (like untermensche), of course.

If the guy were here right now and said something like "hey, diz, I'm 49" I'd be like "oh, cool". It's not like it hurts me.

This may not hurt you in this particular case, but it could hurt you if you happened to be in competition with him for something that required a younger age.

Changing your age will never be allowed by the law makers to happen anyway. We base too many laws (such as drinking and driving) on age. And the law simply can not be seen as something that can be changed arbitrarily based on how you feel. Doing so will invite nothing but chaos.

 

[dismal]

If I follow the above principle to its logical conclusion then, yes, a person who identifies as 49 should be treated as if they are 49. Unless you're a racist nazi transageophobe (like untermensche), of course.

If the guy were here right now and said something like "hey, diz, I'm 49" I'd be like "oh, cool". It's not like it hurts me.

There is no principle.

There is a rare recognized human condition.

You take the line of argument of the bigot.

If a person feels young great. That is a reward in itself.

No lies need be told.

I think we have already established beyond reasonable doubt that you're a transageophobic bigot. Admittedly the racist and nazi modifiers are generally added by association.

 

[dismal]

If I follow the above principle to its logical conclusion then, yes, a person who identifies as 49 should be treated as if they are 49. Unless you're a racist nazi transageophobe (like untermensche), of course.

If the guy were here right now and said something like "hey, diz, I'm 49" I'd be like "oh, cool". It's not like it hurts me.

Yes, but you presumably don't agree he should formally or officially be recognised as 49, as in changing dates on paperwork, so that it would not be bigoted or transphobic anything to say, 'but you are not really 49', if you chose to (for whatever reason, depending on what your interaction with him entailed). And if he went on tinder and gave his age as 49, that would factually be a lie, yeah?

If you accept someone deserves to be treated as what they identify as and not doing so makes you a bigot, calling what they identify as "a lie" makes you a bigot.

 

[untermensche]

If I follow the above principle to its logical conclusion then, yes, a person who identifies as 49 should be treated as if they are 49. Unless you're a racist nazi transageophobe (like untermensche), of course.

If the guy were here right now and said something like "hey, diz, I'm 49" I'd be like "oh, cool". It's not like it hurts me.

There is no principle.

There is a rare recognized human condition.

You take the line of argument of the bigot.

If a person feels young great. That is a reward in itself.

No lies need be told.

I think we have already established beyond reasonable doubt that you're a transageophobic bigot. Admittedly the racist and nazi modifiers are generally added by association.

No!

You lie!!!

You do not think.

You are a bigoted reflex. This transparent nonsense is the nonsense of the bigot. You have no arguments just an ignorant smirk.

I am not bigoted against people who say they feel good.

They have all the reward any human deserves.

 

[dismal]

If I follow the above principle to its logical conclusion then, yes, a person who identifies as 49 should be treated as if they are 49. Unless you're a racist nazi transageophobe (like untermensche), of course.

If the guy were here right now and said something like "hey, diz, I'm 49" I'd be like "oh, cool". It's not like it hurts me.

This may not hurt you in this particular case, but it could hurt you if you happened to be in competition with him for something that required a younger age.

Sure, you might prefer if you could win a track meet:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/transgend...d-competitors-critics-close/story?id=55856294

Or, a bike race:

https://cycling.today/transgender-cyclist-wins-womens-track-world-championships/

But it's pretty well established you're a bigot if you raise this sort of objection to someone identifying as something.

- - - Updated - - -

I think we have already established beyond reasonable doubt that you're a transageophobic bigot. Admittedly the racist and nazi modifiers are generally added by association.

No!

You lie!!!

You do not think.

You are a bigoted reflex. This transparent nonsense is the nonsense of the bigot.

Right, Up is down, black is white, and I'm the bigot because I don't freak out about the chronomorph.

 

[untermensche]

Right, Up is down, black is white, and I'm the bigot because I don't freak out about the chronomorph.

Bigots use nonsense like this.

Bigots don't make rational arguments.

Which is why you have none.

 

[dismal]

Right, Up is down, black is white, and I'm the bigot because I don't freak out about the chronomorph.

Bigots use nonsense like this.

Bigots don't make rational arguments.

Which is why you have none.

Reminder: you are the guy in a frothing panic over some guy identifying as a 49 year old when it can cause you no conceivable harm.

 

[untermensche]

Right, Up is down, black is white, and I'm the bigot because I don't freak out about the chronomorph.

Bigots use nonsense like this.

Bigots don't make rational arguments.

Which is why you have none.

Reminder: you are the guy in a frothing panic over some guy identifying as a 49 year old when it can cause you no conceivable harm.

I am calmly saying the clown has no valid reason for the government to lie for him.

He has some desires but none of them rise to the level of justifying the government to lie for him.

Societies and workplaces should be free of age discrimination.

That is where the government can help and I'm sure you fully support those efforts and don't refer to them pejoratively as "regulation".

 

[dismal]

Reminder: you are the guy in a frothing panic over some guy identifying as a 49 year old when it can cause you no conceivable harm.

I am calmly saying the clown has no valid reason for the government to lie for him.

He has some desires but none of them rise to the level of justifying the government to lie for him.

Societies and workplaces should be free of age discrimination.

That is where the government can help and I'm sure you fully support those efforts and don't refer to them pejoratively as "regulation".

It's not "a lie" that he want's to identify as 49 years old. Calling it a lie shows you are bigoted against chronomorphism.

 

[untermensche]

Reminder: you are the guy in a frothing panic over some guy identifying as a 49 year old when it can cause you no conceivable harm.

I am calmly saying the clown has no valid reason for the government to lie for him.

He has some desires but none of them rise to the level of justifying the government to lie for him.

Societies and workplaces should be free of age discrimination.

That is where the government can help and I'm sure you fully support those efforts and don't refer to them pejoratively as "regulation".

It's not "a lie" that he want's to identify as 49 years old. Calling it a lie shows you are bigoted against chronomorphism.

A person is born on a specific date.

To say you were born on a different day is a lie.

Being born is not the same thing as gender identification.

It is not in the same class of things.

It is a physical event. Not something that develops over time in the mind, like gender identification.

 

[dismal]

It's not "a lie" that he want's to identify as 49 years old. Calling it a lie shows you are bigoted against chronomorphism.

A person is born on a specific date.

To say you were born on a different day is a lie.

Being born is not the same thing as gender identification.

It is not in the same class of things.

It is a physical event. Not something that develops over time in the mind, like gender identification.

In this guy's mind he wants to identify as a 49 year old.

 

[untermensche]

It's not "a lie" that he want's to identify as 49 years old. Calling it a lie shows you are bigoted against chronomorphism.

A person is born on a specific date.

To say you were born on a different day is a lie.

Being born is not the same thing as gender identification.

It is not in the same class of things.

It is a physical event. Not something that develops over time in the mind, like gender identification.

In this guy's mind he wants to identify as a 49 year old.

He can.

He can lie to anyone he wants to.

But being born is nothing like something that develops in the mind.

To say they are the same is to not respect the people who say their mind has naturally developed in a certain direction.

Nothing about your date of birth can change based upon subjective reports of feeling great or by actually feeling great.

 

[Lion IRC]

Sure, you might prefer if you could win a track meet:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/transgend...d-competitors-critics-close/story?id=55856294

Or, a bike race:

https://cycling.today/transgender-cyclist-wins-womens-track-world-championships/

But it's pretty well established you're a bigot if you raise this sort of objection to someone identifying as something.

- - - Updated - - -

I think we have already established beyond reasonable doubt that you're a transageophobic bigot. Admittedly the racist and nazi modifiers are generally added by association.

No!

You lie!!!

You do not think.

You are a bigoted reflex. This transparent nonsense is the nonsense of the bigot.

Right, Up is down, black is white, and I'm the bigot because I don't freak out about the chronomorph.

I'm conflicted about Halloween black face cultural appropriation

Right or wrong?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

He says he wants to do it to lie to women about his actual age.

The government helping people lie to women is harming them.

A person's autonomy is violated with deceptions like this.

So if you leave your basement long enough to go meet a girl, and a few hours into the encounter discover the girl has a penis, is your autonomy violated?

You mean somebody who appears to be a woman tells me after a few hours they have a penis?

No my autonomy is not violated.

Then if you discover that the person is older (or younger) that initially represented, your autonomy is not violated either.

With the very important caveat that you don't want a partner under the legal limit.