Defending HItler

[Hermit]

I believe most of the gas chambers were carbon monoxide. I'd imagine that seal would less critical.

Carbon monoxide was used in euthanasia centres and gas vans, but those operations were relatively small scale. As far as the concentration camps are concerned, the paper trail does not indicate purchases of carbon monoxide, nor is there any indication of CO manufacture on site. There exist, however, receipts concerning payments for a total of 8 metric tons of Zyklon B, most of it sold to the SS operators of Auschwitz-Birkenau camp, and some to the camps at Mauthausen, Dachau, and Buchenwald. While the SS managed to incinerate most of the records they generated during the running of the KZs, the companies that sold the gas to them, Heli and Testa, did not destroy the documentation at their end.

Now, from the Wikipedia:

Rudolf Höss, commandant of Auschwitz, said that the use of Zyklon-B to kill prisoners came about on the initiative of one of his subordinates, SS-Hauptsturmführer (captain) Karl Fritzsch, who used the substance to kill some Russian POWs in late August 1941 in the basement of Block 11 in the main camp. The experiment was repeated on more Russian POWs, with Höss watching, in September. Block 11 proved unsuitable for mass killings, as the basement was difficult to air out afterwards and the crematorium (Crematorium I, which operated until July 1942) was some distance away. The site of the killings was moved to Crematorium I, where more than 700 victims could be killed at once. By the middle of 1942, the operation was moved to Auschwitz II–Birkenau, a nearby satellite camp which had been under construction since October 1941.

The "beauty" of the Zyklon B was not just that up to 700 human vermin could be killed at a time, but that it was cheaper to kill them with the gas than with bullets. It only took 70 milligrams per person. And no, the chamber need not be air tight. Zyklon (A) had been used to kill pests on plants for decades by just erecting tents over the top of plants and trees or covering them with large blankets.

 

[LordKiran]

I believe most of the gas chambers were carbon monoxide. I'd imagine that seal would less critical.

Carbon monoxide was used in euthanasia centres and gas vans, but those operations were relatively small scale. As far as the concentration camps are concerned, the paper trail does not indicate purchases of carbon monoxide, nor is there any indication of CO manufacture on site. There exist, however, receipts concerning payments for a total of 8 metric tons of Zyklon B, most of it sold to the SS operators of Auschwitz-Birkenau camp, and some to the camps at Mauthausen, Dachau, and Buchenwald. While the SS managed to incinerate most of the records they generated during the running of the KZs, the companies that sold the gas to them, Heli and Testa, did not destroy the documentation at their end.

Now, from the Wikipedia:

Rudolf Höss, commandant of Auschwitz, said that the use of Zyklon-B to kill prisoners came about on the initiative of one of his subordinates, SS-Hauptsturmführer (captain) Karl Fritzsch, who used the substance to kill some Russian POWs in late August 1941 in the basement of Block 11 in the main camp. The experiment was repeated on more Russian POWs, with Höss watching, in September. Block 11 proved unsuitable for mass killings, as the basement was difficult to air out afterwards and the crematorium (Crematorium I, which operated until July 1942) was some distance away. The site of the killings was moved to Crematorium I, where more than 700 victims could be killed at once. By the middle of 1942, the operation was moved to Auschwitz II–Birkenau, a nearby satellite camp which had been under construction since October 1941.

The "beauty" of the Zyklon B was not just that up to 700 human vermin could be killed at a time, but that it was cheaper to kill them with the gas than with bullets. It only took 70 milligrams per person. And no, the chamber need not be air tight. Zyklon (A) had been used to kill pests on plants for decades by just erecting tents over the top of plants and trees or covering them with large blankets.

Why did they bother with gassing them at all? Surely they could have just thrown them into the ovens as is.

 

[humbleman]

We can do better than that. Interviews with people who operated them and witnessed the gassings, for instance. When I brought that up previously, you replied:
I posted an interview with one of those workers, which was recorded in audio as well as video in this post, to see if you could still say "it is possible that those words don't belong to them", but you totally ignored it. So here is another one:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDzEKkovr0c[/YOUTUBE]

Click "Play" and move the slider to 37:28. The man you hear talking is Josef Klehr. He was an SS-Oberscharführer who worked at the Auschwitz KZ among others. Comparing death by lethal injection to death by gassing he says : "This death was not as gruesome as the gassing. That was gruesome. Yeh. It was like a beehive [in the gas chamber]. They came into the gassing room, and when the camp doctor was ready, he gave the order to the SS above and he poured the gas into the chimney and then it went mmmmmmm. And the sound is dying away until it isn't any more. That was a gruesome death. This gas harmed the respirator." Then, at 38:24, "When I have seen taking out the corpses, they were green and blue. And it lasted longer than the injection. The syringe wasn't fully injected and he already collapsed. But with the gassing, the humming lasted for 10 minutes at least and then it was getting weaker. This is what I mean, that it was more gruesome, the gassing."

Would you tell Klehr, were he still alive, that he could not have witnessed what he said he witnessed, or that he is a liar? Would you say that to the man who admitted during his court case that one of his tasks was to draw up the roster for who was to dump the Zyklon B into the gas chambers?

Anyway, the gas chambers were only one method of killing as many people as cheaply and efficiently as possible. The KZs were mass extermination facilities. Oswald Kaduk, an SS member who worked at the Auschwitz KZ from 1941 until its closure, put it this way (beginning at 9:07) when the interviewer put it to him that "Today there are many people that say Auschwitz was a lie, that nobody at all was gassed." "I have to say, I do not consider these people normal. We have to stick to the truth. There are people denying it, but what happened, happened, and it is not up for dispute."

German is my first language, so don't try the "maybe the translation is wrong" line with me.

The witness is not only lying but describing a fantasy.

Looks like the answer to the question I now bolded is "Yes, I would."

I respect your opinion like those held by flat-earthers, except that yours is way more pernicious.

And no, I am not posting in this thread to defend or attack Hitler. My posts are solely directed at your holocaust denial.

You must put it this way.

I can't be in either side but to defend my client Mr. Hitler.

In my case in particular, I'm not denying the death of millions of people who were not soldiers but died as consequence of the war. But, I must be on his side and defend him with the best of my abilities. This is what attorneys do. The law allows it.

(Reporters surrounding the court building)

And I will give some words to the TV media, excuse me... hello?... yes... This case is very serious by the fact that malicious accusations have been made against my client for decades, and we are looking forward to have an impartial juror which will have the opportunity to hear the expressed side of Mr. Hitler.

This is a very challenging enterprise in justice, but this opportunity to prove my client not guilty of the charges against him has been a surprise for everybody.

Yes?... excuse, can you repeat that?...

Oh, I see, please allow me to clarify a few things...

You call it "Holocaust", which is a technical term, because in reality nobody sacrificed humans or animals to a God by meanings of fire.

So, the technical term "Holocaust" is the name given to the assumed murdering of people by Hitler's regime, by an attempt of erase from earth their existence.

Evidence shows that Mr. Hitler didn't have intentions of killing those people in actions like gas chambers or fire while they were alive. On the contrary, when Mr. Hitler was in need of more free hand labor, the arrest of people in greater amounts was enforced to provide more free hand labor for German Army logistics.

It is absurd from all points of war strategy, that Mr. Hitler was sending to death his own sources for production and maintenance his war machine.

It is incomprehensible, how many people believe that Nazis, in the middle and at the end of the war, will WASTE their time pulling people from streets, getting them in trains, making them suffer in concentration camps, and finally killing them all.

Such an idea is touching the limits of idiocy.

No war strategist will waste his logistics in such kind of actions. If Mr. Hitler was in the mood of killing certain people, then the order should have been to kill them right where they were found.

Mr. Hitler's era of receiving visitors like movie stars from the US and similar was over after the middle of the war in progress. He didn't have to justify anything to nobody. There was no need of keeping secrecy if he wanted to kill one or a million people.

Even if secrecy was the motto, then pulling people and filling trains was in front of everybody. Nothing to hide.

On the other hand, the simple fact that detainees in concentration camps near Berlin were well fed, well clothed, and the allies found them with good health, this is the solid evidence that only concentration camps far away were the main affected by the bombings of the allies destroying the roads, over which the trucks with food and medicine were supposed to arrive.

The allies destroyed those roads, because the existing German factories in those areas. This destruction affected the concentration camps as well, and the consequences were the ones you see in the pictures.

Detainees in concentration camps were supposed to be there as having a temporary shelter until they were taken to work as laborers in cities, factories, etc. The simple fact that detainees were in concentration camps for too long is the evidence that they weren't able to be transferred to work places.

Germans didn't make torture against the detainees by means of killing them with lack of food or similar. The fact is there was no food and medicine in those far away from Berlin concentration camps, this is the crude reality, and the cause fer this to happen were the allies daily bombings.

We will review the plaintiff's evidence with clinical doctor's eye, and we will ask the court for discarding charges with dubious evidence.

Thank you very much...

Eh, Can I say hello to my mom?.. yes... sure?... hey thanks!... Hi mom... Look! I'm on TV...

 

[Horatio Parker]

Not so. The eastern extermination camps that gassed were CM e.g. Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka. The others used shooting.

As the ghettos liquidated and the eastern front moved west, those camps were closed and Auschwitz became the main focus.

 

[humbleman]

I believe most of the gas chambers were carbon monoxide. I'd imagine that seal would less critical.

Carbon monoxide was used in euthanasia centres and gas vans, but those operations were relatively small scale. As far as the concentration camps are concerned, the paper trail does not indicate purchases of carbon monoxide, nor is there any indication of CO manufacture on site. There exist, however, receipts concerning payments for a total of 8 metric tons of Zyklon B, most of it sold to the SS operators of Auschwitz-Birkenau camp, and some to the camps at Mauthausen, Dachau, and Buchenwald. While the SS managed to incinerate most of the records they generated during the running of the KZs, the companies that sold the gas to them, Heli and Testa, did not destroy the documentation at their end.

Now, from the Wikipedia:

Rudolf Höss, commandant of Auschwitz, said that the use of Zyklon-B to kill prisoners came about on the initiative of one of his subordinates, SS-Hauptsturmführer (captain) Karl Fritzsch, who used the substance to kill some Russian POWs in late August 1941 in the basement of Block 11 in the main camp. The experiment was repeated on more Russian POWs, with Höss watching, in September. Block 11 proved unsuitable for mass killings, as the basement was difficult to air out afterwards and the crematorium (Crematorium I, which operated until July 1942) was some distance away. The site of the killings was moved to Crematorium I, where more than 700 victims could be killed at once. By the middle of 1942, the operation was moved to Auschwitz II–Birkenau, a nearby satellite camp which had been under construction since October 1941.

The "beauty" of the Zyklon B was not just that up to 700 human vermin could be killed at a time, but that it was cheaper to kill them with the gas than with bullets. It only took 70 milligrams per person. And no, the chamber need not be air tight. Zyklon (A) had been used to kill pests on plants for decades by just erecting tents over the top of plants and trees or covering them with large blankets.

I'm going to give you another clue so you will understand why all those "witnesses" were talking garbage when they said the deaths in gas chambers were group after group continuously one right after the another.

These witnesses were instructed to say those lies in order to justify the millions of death people killed by the allies, and this include the Russian bombings.

Drink lots of milk to the point of causing you lots of gases.

Go inside an elevator going to the top floor, and fart inside. Watch the people faces, people coming in and out. Check what they do.

Do you get it now?

 

[beero1000]

Pathetic.

 

[Ford]

Pathetic.

Bizarre. The Holocaust never happened because farts in an elevator.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

A good lawyer is supposed to be able to argue either side of a case given the same set of facts, and that if you have two basically equivalently skilled lawyers they could flip a coin before walking into a courtroom to see who takes what side.

It isn't the same in a public forum, where people will say "how dare you conduct that intellectual exercise, you must be a fascist." I think if you want a thread on defending Hitler, you should do it in a more court-like format in a one-on-one debate thread.

I was expecting some of that reaction. You get it from idiots. I am pleasantly surprised how many here did NOT go with that reaction though, and actually thought their way through the exercise. Kudos.

I don't know, I think I'm seeing people do it here in this thread quite a bit.

It is pointless to engage with a holocaust denier. They deny all relevant evidence of their own sight, of witness testimony, of expert research and testimony and of official records.

Maybe we should open up a discussion on whether obvious trolls should be banned.

Do you think your use of legal jargon makes you look smart? Because it doesn't. It makes you look like you're putting on airs.

 

[laughing dog]

nm

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2006/08/does_poison_gas_smell_good.html

 

[humbleman]

Pathetic.

Bizarre. The Holocaust never happened because farts in an elevator.

OK.

It is clear that you -most of you- won't ever get it.

The submarine analogy, the guy farting in the elevator require of a special system for moving gas,

If the elevator lacks of ventilation system, you fart and the smell will last for looooong time, and people will refuse getting inside the elevator.

The idea of pushing a group of people inside the room, release gas causing their death, and right after, removing their bodies and pushing another group of people can't be possible!

Those rooms will require of an exhaust system or returning duct to storage the poison gas or release it to the atmosphere.

The whole story of gas chambers is proven scientifically a lie, a fairy tale, an invention which only the ignorant might believe.

Science.

Yes, it is not the anti-Semite but science which declares such existence of gas chambers as fake, false, a complete absurdity.

Go and check how gas chambers are built.

There is no excuse for this essential part in their construction.

No sealed doors and other entrances plus lack of exhaust system, no... such is a story invented to discredit my client Mr. Hitler.

I must use the layman language to express my perturbed compassion towards the ones who ignored the method used to make a gas chamber in order to make it functional. My virgin and chaste tongue will be an instrument of an offensive expression which I can't controlled it, I must do it... this job defending the integrity of this man of war who with great honor wore his uniform with prestige and pride... no... insults against him and against me, his attorney, have been devastating for my health. I must release my anger becoming as vulgar as the plaintiff... now...

...Look at the picture

This is the "exhaust" system in those buildings.

Come one guys... give me a break!

 

[Ford]

Pathetic.

Bizarre. The Holocaust never happened because farts in an elevator.

OK.

It is clear that you -most of you- won't ever get it.

We all get it. You're the farts in an elevator idiot.

The gas chambers and the mass exterminations are historical fact. It happened. We have not just the witnesses, but the actual buildings, the documentation, and the testimony of the people who carried out the massacres.

The perpetrators of the genocide admitted what they did in court under oath, and their admissions were backed up by physical and forensic evidence.

There's also the demographic evidence...millions of Jews vanishing from existence at exactly the same time the above evidence tells us they were murdered.

Mr. Hitler was a murdering fuckhead. Proven guilty six ways to Sunday. The Holocaust is the most thoroughly documented attempted genocide in the history of humanity.

 

[bilby]

Pathetic.

Bizarre. The Holocaust never happened because farts in an elevator.

OK.

It is clear that you -most of you- won't ever get it.

The submarine analogy, the guy farting in the elevator require of a special system for moving gas,

If the elevator lacks of ventilation system, you fart and the smell will last for looooong time, and people will refuse getting inside the elevator.

The idea of pushing a group of people inside the room, release gas causing their death, and right after, removing their bodies and pushing another group of people can't be possible!

Those rooms will require of an exhaust system or returning duct to storage the poison gas or release it to the atmosphere.

The whole story of gas chambers is proven scientifically a lie, a fairy tale, an invention which only the ignorant might believe.

Science.

Yes, it is not the anti-Semite but science which declares such existence of gas chambers as fake, false, a complete absurdity.

Go and check how gas chambers are built.

There is no excuse for this essential part in their construction.

No sealed doors and other entrances plus lack of exhaust system, no... such is a story invented to discredit my client Mr. Hitler.

I must use the layman language to express my perturbed compassion towards the ones who ignored the method used to make a gas chamber in order to make it functional. My virgin and chaste tongue will be an instrument of an offensive expression which I can't controlled it, I must do it... this job defending the integrity of this man of war who with great honor wore his uniform with prestige and pride... no... insults against him and against me, his attorney, have been devastating for my health. I must release my anger becoming as vulgar as the plaintiff... now...

...Look at the picture

This is the "exhaust" system in those buildings.

Come one guys... give me a break!

View attachment 13921

 

[barbos]

Reminds me Moon Hoax conspiracy. It did not happen because it could not have been done.

OK, I googled "Zyklon B", turns out it is cianide based poison. It does not require much precautions. No side effects from small doses listed. The fact that it was used as pesticide confirms that you don't need to have chemical lab equipment to work with it.

 

[laughing dog]

The notion that the lack of duct tape around the doors or windows (i.e. not sealed) is evidence is ridiculous. People die of smoke inhalation in fires where the building was not designed to poison or asphixate people.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Pathetic.

Bizarre. The Holocaust never happened because farts in an elevator.

OK.

It is clear that you -most of you- won't ever get it.

The submarine analogy, the guy farting in the elevator require of a special system for moving gas,

If the elevator lacks of ventilation system, you fart and the smell will last for looooong time, and people will refuse getting inside the elevator.

The idea of pushing a group of people inside the room, release gas causing their death, and right after, removing their bodies and pushing another group of people can't be possible!

Those rooms will require of an exhaust system or returning duct to storage the poison gas or release it to the atmosphere.

The whole story of gas chambers is proven scientifically a lie, a fairy tale, an invention which only the ignorant might believe.

Science.

Yes, it is not the anti-Semite but science which declares such existence of gas chambers as fake, false, a complete absurdity.

Go and check how gas chambers are built.

There is no excuse for this essential part in their construction.

No sealed doors and other entrances plus lack of exhaust system, no... such is a story invented to discredit my client Mr. Hitler.

I must use the layman language to express my perturbed compassion towards the ones who ignored the method used to make a gas chamber in order to make it functional. My virgin and chaste tongue will be an instrument of an offensive expression which I can't controlled it, I must do it... this job defending the integrity of this man of war who with great honor wore his uniform with prestige and pride... no... insults against him and against me, his attorney, have been devastating for my health. I must release my anger becoming as vulgar as the plaintiff... now...

...Look at the picture

This is the "exhaust" system in those buildings.

Come one guys... give me a break!

View attachment 13921

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyklon_B


The first gas chamber at Auschwitz II–Birkenau was the "red house" (called Bunker 1 by SS staff), a brick cottage converted to a gassing facility by tearing out the inside and bricking up the windows. It was operational by March 1942. A second brick cottage, the "white house" or Bunker 2, was converted some weeks later.[33][22] According to Höss, Bunker 1 held 800 victims and Bunker 2 held 1,200 victims.[34] These structures were in use for mass killings until early 1943.[35] At that point, the Nazis decided to greatly increase the gassing capacity of Birkenau. Crematorium II, originally designed as a mortuary, with morgues in the basement and ground-level incinerators, was converted into a killing factory by installing gas-tight doors, vents for the Zyklon B to be dropped into the chamber, and ventilation equipment to remove the gas afterwards.[36][c] Crematorium III was built using the same design. Crematoria IV and V, designed from the start as gassing centers, were also constructed that spring. By June 1943, all four crematoria were operational. Most of the victims were killed using these four structures.[37]


and

Sonderkommandos (special work crews forced to work at the gas chambers) wearing gas masks then dragged the bodies from the chamber.

The Germans also kept meticulous records of the victims.

 

[steve_bank]

Hitler was a good politician. Inter war there were multiple political, military, and militia factions. He co opted and eliminated.

The military initially resisted war. After the initial successes they got on board.

Hitler was a good politician but a lousy strategist. If he let his staff prosecute the war the world might have been a different place today.

Hitler wrote that war is a natural human state.

Considering post war history, maybe he was right.

Considering pre-war history, and his personal experience, it is understandable why he thought that; but considering post war history, he was very clearly wrong. Armed conflict is increasingly rare, and decreasingly deadly, and that trend has been pretty constant since 1945. Of course, the amount of conflict in the news hasn't changed much; But that's a function of the biased way in which news is presented - if it bleeds, it leads; and footage of a big explosion always gets plenty of air-time.

https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace/

View attachment 13905

I agree that despite media hysteria and drama except for relatively small hot spots the world has become relatively peaceful.

The problem is China and Russia appear to be in pre WWII mode. China arbitrarily redrew international boundaries in the South China Sea to encompass oil and fish resources. There was a physical confrontation between China and the PI over fishing rights. The PI ran a ship up on a small atoll declaring possession of the waters around it. China built an armed island and declare airspace their own.

Russia and Crimea and Ukraine. As we now know Russia is trying to destabilize the west.

We are not out of the woods yet.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I think humbleman made a good attempt but was not up to the task. We need someone else to posit a hypothetical defense of Hitler.

I nominate laughing dog.

 

[laughing dog]

I think humbleman made a good attempt but was not up to the task. We need someone else to posit a hypothetical defense of Hitler.

I nominate laughing dog.

Apparently, you feel the need to follow me around and embarrass yourself with these content-free and lame insults. I hope for your sake, that the positive benefit of this therapy to you outweighs the embarrassment it causes you.

 

[Sarpedon]

So all out Holocaust denial is a 'good attempt?' I shudder to think what Jason would consider to be a bad attempt.