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Danica Roem

Juma said:
The cells can be male or female (according X/Y chromosomes)
The body can be male, female or others (according genital organs)
The person can be male, female or others. (According to the persons self image)

Do you acknowledge that these 3 categorizations are separate?

1. There is no such thing as "the body" as opposed to the individual (not necessarily a person). The individual can be male or female (or neither; e.g., intersex individuals in humans, hermaphrodites in other species, etc.).
I think this bit of verbal subterfuge tells us everything we need to know about Angra Mainyu's willfully wrong and closed mind on this topic.

body - noun - "the physical structure of a person or an animal, including the bones, flesh, and organs."

2. A person can believe that he or she is male or female, but that person may or may not be correct. It's not that the person is male or female depending on their beliefs.
Above, Angra Mainyu tries to pretend s/he sees a distinction between "individual" (which s/he says is the *proper* word rather than *body*) and "person", even though "person" is defined as "a human being regarded as an individual."

The game is revealed here when s/he conflates the two words "individual" and "person" - now treating them as the same meaning when s/he just got done (erroneously) telling us that the words are not the same and that "individual" is really more like "body".

This is either intellectual dishonesty or Angra Mainyu really does not see a difference between the physical body and the person. Either way, the ONLY way Angra Mainyu can maintain the false argument being put forth here, is to insist there is no difference between the physical body and who a person is.
 
First, I of course do not deny that sexual organs can be surgically altered, and that the altered organs look usually as the doctors who perform the surgeries intend them to have.
Second, I do deny that gender confirmation surgery or any other turns a man into a woman, or a woman into a man.
You have made your religious view quite clear.

[
Angra Mainyu said:
That's actually not what I said. It gives the impression I agree with that, while I obviously do not. I was quoting a source, and provided the link.

The reason I provided that link and quoted that - which, of course, should be obvious to you - was that it shows the conflict between the claims you've been making and standard transgender claims. You're in conflict with your own in--group, which is a problem for you. It's not a problem for me.
I have no in-group. So, it is not possible for me to conflict with my in-group, so I have no problem. Clearly, you have lots of problems if you have to you have to resort to such vapid straw man tactics.
 
YOU are not the topic, no matter how much YOU want it to be so, but the above is so full of false it is downright laughable. :hysterical:

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It’s important to recognize that regardless if someone gets surgery, their gender is still whatever they self-identify as.
If you actually believed that quote, you would not ask for evidence that Danica Roem is a woman.

exactly

I certainly do not want to be the topic. I asked for arguments, evidence, etc., in support of the claim that Danica Roem is a woman. I got no reasonable argument for that, but I did get a lot of unjust attacks, and defending myself by pointing out that they are unjust, setting the record straight when my views and words are misrepresented, etc., is a reasonable response.

As to the quote, as I already explained both to you and to laughing dog, I did not quote it in order to suggest I agreed with it - as should be very obvious; rather, laughing dog used the quotations in a way that gives the impression that I endorse it, but I most certainly did not give any reasons whatsoever to suspect I do, and I brought it up as part of the ample evidence I provided to show that laughing dog's position was in conflict with usual transgender claims, as I have repeatedly explained and clarified.
 
Not a chance, because:
1. It's false. If she's a mannish woman, she's still a woman.
2. Actually, 1. is enough.

1. You don't know that and have no way of ever knowing for 100% certain.

2. See point one.

Actually, I do know it because you have stipulated that that was my assessment. Regardless, even if I think that the person is probably a man, I'm not going to start a confrontation by telling him so. For that matter, when someone tells me that he does magic "jobs" of different sorts (and this has happened), I'm not going to deny it and face his anger.

- - - Updated - - -

RavenSky said:
YOU are contradicting yourself at every turn, and don't even have the intellectual honesty or understanding of the topic to acknowledge it, and I do not believe you have any intention of discussing this topic with a goal of honest understanding, so the rest of this post is not for you.
No, I have never contradicted myself in this thread. It should be obvious to you, as it is obvious to any person reading my posts with some amount of care, and being rational about it.
Again, I did not cite those as a means of expressing support. Nor do their claims provide any argumentation in support of them.

RavenSky said:
There is no contradiction. As has been described by every "out" or public transgender person I've ever heard from, they have known what their gender is from a very early age regardless whether they reveal that knowledge to the world through words or actions. It sounds to me (purely my opinion) to be very similar to the way a lot of gay people talk about their childhoods.
Not all, but many transgender people claim they were that gender always, or since they remember, etc., and that is of course in conflict with laughing dog's claims, as I have repeatedly shown.

RavenSky said:
So regardless how a transgender person chooses to 'present' - even if they try follow society dictates and live as the 'wrong' gender or if they choose to live as their self-identified gender without ever having hormones/surgery - it is what they genuine feel themselves to be that matters.
They believe that they are women, men, etc., but that does not mean they are.

RavenSky said:
But once they choose to live outwardly as the gender they know themselves to be - ESPECIALLY when their outward appearance is matching their gender, what GLAAD calls "visibly transgender" - it is not up to people like Angra Mainyu to tell them they are wrong or to insist on using the wrong pronoun.
That's one of the worst parts. Of course, I can make my own assessment as to whether they are correct. Some of them actually conclude they were incorrect in the first place, by the way, but that's not the point.
 
RavenSky said:
I think this bit of verbal subterfuge tells us everything we need to know about Angra Mainyu's willfully wrong and closed mind on this topic.

body - noun - "the physical structure of a person or an animal, including the bones, flesh, and organs."
I deny that, as a matter of fact, there is a body separated from the person or animal, so a classification that says one thing about the body and another of the person or animal, fails to match reality. The accusation that is a verbal subterfuge or that I'm willfully wrong, etc., is false and epistemically irrational on your part to believe.

RavenSky said:
Above, Angra Mainyu tries to pretend s/he sees a distinction between "individual" (which s/he says is the *proper* word rather than *body*) and "person", even though "person" is defined as "a human being regarded as an individual."
There is a difference only in that an individual may or may not be a person (e.g., a lion isn't; neither is a human embryo). However, it is false that above, I tried to do that. You simply keep misconstruing my words.

RavenSky said:
The game is revealed here when s/he conflates the two words "individual" and "person" - now treating them as the same meaning when s/he just got done (erroneously) telling us that the words are not the same and that "individual" is really more like "body".
That is false. A person is also a human individual.

RavenSky said:
This is either intellectual dishonesty or Angra Mainyu really does not see a difference between the physical body and the person. Either way, the ONLY way Angra Mainyu can maintain the false argument being put forth here, is to insist there is no difference between the physical body and who a person is.
There is no difference (we're talking about a living, functioning body), as there is no soul. There is a conceptual difference of course, but no difference in the actual world.
 
That's both false and epistemically irrational for you to believe. But no matter, if you want to make an argument in support of the claim that Roem is a woman instead of launching personal attacks, I will consider your argument.

I'm just putting it out there as a distinct possibility.

You're implying (at the very least; in context, it seems much more) that it's reasonable to suspect so, on the basis of the available evidence. It is not.
 
1. There is no such thing as "the body" as opposed to the individual (not necessarily a person). The individual can be male or female (or neither; e.g., intersex individuals in humans, hermaphrodites in other species, etc.).
2. A person can believe that he or she is male or female, but that person may or may not be correct. It's not that the person is male or female depending on their beliefs.
3. As for the chromosome classification, that is indeed a classification separate from the usual classification of individuals as females or males, applicable to most animals species (and beyond). In humans and many other species, chromosomes normally determine sex, in the sense that they normally cause the development of a female or a male individual. But there are species in which there are other causes (and abnormally, perhaps in humans as well).

Now, I wasn't talking about "female" and "male" but about "woman" and "man". There are different theories about the relation between those two classifications. One is that a woman is a female human being, and a man is a male human being (either necessarily but not analytically - as in "water is composed of H2O", or analytically); others might held otherwise.

You are not necessarily your body.

I disagree. It's not analytical, but there is no possible world in which I'm a soul, or something like that; obviously, I'm not a dead body. When I die, the dead body will not be I, and there is a sense in which that would be "my" body, but not one that seems relevant here, since in the case of living individuals, there is no distinction to be found.

Now, there may be possible worlds in which there are unembodied persons, but none of them would be I. But if you want to argue for a soul or something like that, I'm listening.
 
Leaving the defense aside for a moment, and for interested readers who are being epistemically rational, I intend explore in greater detail my take on two issues, and some of their consequences:

1. The evidence for or against Danica Roem being a woman, under the concept "woman" traditionally used in English.
2. The evidence that there is a new consistent linguistic convention (including a few new concepts) that is used by a majority or at least by a large minority of native English speakers (at least, in America) that classifies people in a more precise manner than the man/woman binary classification (or just in a different manner, even if not more precise), and under that convention, she's a trans woman, which is a specific sort of woman under a new meaning of "woman".

I have already addressed 1. before, so my assessment is along the lines of the earlier one, but I intend to be more specific, providing more arguments, evidence, etc. I have to go now, but I will write the posts later (not necessarily today).
 
You are not necessarily your body.

I disagree. It's not analytical, but there is no possible world in which I'm a soul, or something like that; obviously, I'm not a dead body. When I die, the dead body will not be I, and there is a sense in which that would be "my" body, but not one that seems relevant here, since in the case of living individuals, there is no distinction to be found.

Now, there may be possible worlds in which there are unembodied persons, but none of them would be I. But if you want to argue for a soul or something like that, I'm listening.

You can disagree all you want, you're still wrong.
 
I'm just putting it out there as a distinct possibility.

You're implying (at the very least; in context, it seems much more) that it's reasonable to suspect so, on the basis of the available evidence. It is not.

Seems pretty reasonable to me, based on your appeals to normalcy. Only someone with some kind of personal investment in the idea of normalcy would make such appeals.
 
A transgender woman Democrat ...

Hey everyone. I am not sure what Angra is arguing about but I'm sure it's opinionated and useless semantic quibbling. I am glad I put him on ignore.

Just to remind everyone how this thread started, it's about American politics and how Americans were NOT judgmental of the candidate but instead took a look at her politics. So they weren't discriminatory and instead voted for her. With the discriminatory and even genocidal right-wing on the rise, it's good to see there is some pushback. Danica Roem winning is great news.

Here is what she has to say about it:
"My gender is obviously the news story here, but it wasn't my chief qualification for office," Roem told CBSN on Wednesday, mentioning her nine years reporting on local issues for the Gainesville Times.

"That's what qualified me for office," she said of her reporting experience.

Roem said she's concerned about how the Trump administration treats the First Amendment and freedom of the press.

"This is an administration that has declared that reporters are the enemies of the state," Roem said. "That's so wildly unacceptable. By electing a reporter both in the 13th District as well as the 12th District in Chris Hurst, people have made clear that they value what reporters bring to the table," Roehm said.

I'll always be a reporter before I'm a politician," Roehm added.

Asked how she reacts to replacing one of the state's most socially conservative lawmakers who hasn't always acted favorably towards the LGBT community, Roem declined to criticize Marshall.

"Look, the first thing is come January, Delegate Marshall is going to be one of my constituents, and I don't attack my constituents," Roem said, adding it's important to "be inclusive."

"And that's what I plan to do," she added.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/danica-roem-cbsn-interview/

See, now this statement by Danica Roem is clearly about something and she has her opinions about things. I don't agree that she has to disengage from attacking former Delegate, but that's her job to figure out. We don't have to agree on everything. She's great.

Also, this section has me wondering:
"I'll always be a reporter before I'm a politician."

If someone in this thread takes that literally and starts semantic quibbling about it because it's about perceived, personal identity, not one's current career necessarily, if such shenanigans happens in this thread, I recommend to just put the poster on ignore. That's just not what this thread is about and it's an unproductive line of inquiry and useless debate.
 
RavenSky said:
So regardless how a transgender person chooses to 'present' - even if they try follow society dictates and live as the 'wrong' gender or if they choose to live as their self-identified gender without ever having hormones/surgery - it is what they genuine feel themselves to be that matters.
They believe that they are women, men, etc., but that does not mean they are.

Yes, Angra Mainyu, it does.

RavenSky said:
But once they choose to live outwardly as the gender they know themselves to be - ESPECIALLY when their outward appearance is matching their gender, what GLAAD calls "visibly transgender" - it is not up to people like Angra Mainyu to tell them they are wrong or to insist on using the wrong pronoun.
That's one of the worst parts. Of course, I can make my own assessment as to whether they are correct.
No, you really can't. Not ethically or rationally, anyway. It would be a "No True Scotsman" fallacy, and rude as fuck besides.

I will stipulate that you can *think* whatever the hell you want, but as soon as you makes those thoughts public by refusing to use the person's preferred pronouns or telling someone they are *really* a man when they are a transgender woman... you have crossed the line. You can still do it, of course... and suffer the social consequences of your boorish behavior. You might even lose your job or get sued for it. :shrug:
 
Leaving the defense aside for a moment, and for interested readers who are being epistemically rational...

That would not be you

As for your sudden and arbitrary insertion of "souls" into the discussion... red herring.

No one here said anything about souls :rolleyes:
 
Hey everyone. I am not sure what Angra is arguing about but I'm sure it's opinionated and useless semantic quibbling.
It is. Along with an unhealthy dose of him thinking he's the only *rational* person in the universe. :lol:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Danica Roem winning is great news.

Here is what she has to say about it:
"My gender is obviously the news story here, but it wasn't my chief qualification for office," Roem told CBSN on Wednesday, mentioning her nine years reporting on local issues for the Gainesville Times.

"That's what qualified me for office," she said of her reporting experience.

Roem said she's concerned about how the Trump administration treats the First Amendment and freedom of the press.

"This is an administration that has declared that reporters are the enemies of the state," Roem said. "That's so wildly unacceptable. By electing a reporter both in the 13th District as well as the 12th District in Chris Hurst, people have made clear that they value what reporters bring to the table," Roehm said.

I'll always be a reporter before I'm a politician," Roehm added.

Asked how she reacts to replacing one of the state's most socially conservative lawmakers who hasn't always acted favorably towards the LGBT community, Roem declined to criticize Marshall.

"Look, the first thing is come January, Delegate Marshall is going to be one of my constituents, and I don't attack my constituents," Roem said, adding it's important to "be inclusive."

"And that's what I plan to do," she added.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/danica-roem-cbsn-interview/

See, now this statement by Danica Roem is clearly about something and she has her opinions about things. I don't agree that she has to disengage from attacking former Delegate, but that's her job to figure out. We don't have to agree on everything. She's great.

I agree! Love this part:

"This is an administration that has declared that reporters are the enemies of the state," Roem said. "That's so wildly unacceptable. By electing a reporter both in the 13th District as well as the 12th District in Chris Hurst, people have made clear that they value what reporters bring to the table," Roehm said.

Were any scientists elected?

Reporters and scientists elected would be great!
 
That's libelous. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Unintended irony, thy name is Bomb#20.
You have no justification for that opinion. RavenSky has been making false damaging claims about Angra Mainyu with malice and reckless disregard for the truth. It's textbook libel.

There appear to be two underlying problems here that account for why this thread has gone south so badly. The first problem is that some posters starting with NMN treated the issue of whether Roem is a woman as a normal matter-of-fact question to be decided empirically, akin to the issue of whether a person is descended from a monkey, while other posters starting with RavenSky treated the issue as a special question to be decided by authority, akin to the issue of whether a person is in love. Rather than recognizing this as a communication barrier to be overcome, some posters starting with bilby apparently decided agreeing with their ideology on this point is morally obligatory and treating heretics fairly is not morally obligatory.

The second problem is just straight-up Dunning-Kruger effect.

In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias wherein people of low ability suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority derives from the metacognitive inability of low-ability persons to recognize their own ineptitude.

Without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence.

As described by social psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger, the cognitive bias of illusory superiority results from an internal illusion in people of low ability and from an external misperception in people of high ability; that is, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others." Hence, the corollary to the Dunning–Kruger effect indicates that persons of high ability tend to underestimate their relative competence and erroneously presume that tasks that are easy for them to perform are also easy for other people to perform.​

RavenSky and other low-ability persons here repeatedly misrepresent Angra Mainyu's statements and position, because his cognitive superiority leads him to overestimate other people's ability to follow an argument, so he makes arguments more sophisticated than they can process easily; and their illusion of superiority leads them to fail to recognize their own incompetence and instead react to arguments they can't grasp in half a second by imputing their own inept interpretations to him instead of making an effort to understand what he actually wrote.
 
Unintended irony, thy name is Bomb#20.
You have no justification for that opinion.
Of course I do.
RavenSky has been making false damaging claims about Angra Mainyu with malice and reckless disregard for the truth. It's textbook libel.
It would be if her claims met your criteria. But they don't. Which means your claim meets that criteria.
There appear ...blah blah blah.....cognitive superiority....blah blah blah/
Perhaps you should define what you mean by "cognitive superiority" because I am pretty sure you are misusing the term.
 
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Unintended irony, thy name is Bomb#20.
You have no justification for that opinion. RavenSky has been making false damaging claims about Angra Mainyu with malice and reckless disregard for the truth. It's textbook libel.

There appear to be two underlying problems here that account for why this thread has gone south so badly. The first problem is that some posters starting with NMN treated the issue of whether Roem is a woman as a normal matter-of-fact question to be decided empirically, akin to the issue of whether a person is descended from a monkey, while other posters starting with RavenSky treated the issue as a special question to be decided by authority, akin to the issue of whether a person is in love. Rather than recognizing this as a communication barrier to be overcome, some posters starting with bilby apparently decided agreeing with their ideology on this point is morally obligatory and treating heretics fairly is not morally obligatory.

The second problem is just straight-up Dunning-Kruger effect.

In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias wherein people of low ability suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority derives from the metacognitive inability of low-ability persons to recognize their own ineptitude.

Without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence.

As described by social psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger, the cognitive bias of illusory superiority results from an internal illusion in people of low ability and from an external misperception in people of high ability; that is, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others." Hence, the corollary to the Dunning–Kruger effect indicates that persons of high ability tend to underestimate their relative competence and erroneously presume that tasks that are easy for them to perform are also easy for other people to perform.​

RavenSky and other low-ability persons here repeatedly misrepresent Angra Mainyu's statements and position, because his cognitive superiority leads him to overestimate other people's ability to follow an argument, so he makes arguments more sophisticated than they can process easily; and their illusion of superiority leads them to fail to recognize their own incompetence and instead react to arguments they can't grasp in half a second by imputing their own inept interpretations to him instead of making an effort to understand what he actually wrote.

Not at all; I claimed (and I stand by that claim) that the question is indeed empirical, and that new information makes the old system of categorization impractical - therefore, like Newtonian Mechanics, it was always wrong (despite being, and remaining, good enough for most purposes).

I have not had an opportunity to give due time to replying to your response to my earlier post, and the thread has moved on over the last few days, but now that I do have the time, perhaps I can clarify my comments, and address your concerns about them:

Rather like when Pluto was declared not to be a planet, a lot of the simpler folks are certain that 'easier' meant 'better', and that we can simply choose not to change; But those folks are wrong on all counts. The facts haven't changed at all; Pluto never should have been considered a planet... We were wrong in the past, and choosing to remain wrong once new facts come to light is just ... stupid.
You appear to be claiming scientific objectivity for a change in terminological taste. Why do you think Pluto never should have been considered a planet? What grounds do you have for thinking the people who decided to call it a planet were wrong, as opposed to merely applying a different convention from a convention they had no reason to foresee would suddenly become fashionable 76 years in the future? Which prediction of an observation followed from the hypothesis that Pluto was a planet, the failure of which prediction qualifies as "new facts coming to light"? How is what you're saying any different from claiming that the tradition of calling Garth Mountain "Garth Mountain" was a mistake and it should always have been called "Garth Hill"?

(And no, this is not a derail.)
Pluto should never have been considered a planet, because the purpose of the category 'planet' is to describe a set of objects that orbit the sun in such a way as to identify only the ones which are of greatest importance to us. If we accept Pluto as a planet, then we are forced to include in our category a very large number of objects - certainly dozens, perhaps hundreds - rendering the category unfit for its purpose. We knew that there were myriad sub-planetary objects orbiting the Sun before Pluto was discovered; But what was not initially known was that Pluto belonged with these, and not with the planets.

The people who categorized Pluto as a planet were wrong, in that they imagined that there were no other more similar objects in the Solar System than the eight planets; They thought (wrongly) that Pluto shared more in common with the eight other objects already in the category 'planet' than it shared with other classes of objects orbiting the sun.

The value of a categorization scheme lies in its utility - few categorization schemes are completely non-arbitrary. To force all humans into one of two gender categories is overly simplistic, and lacks utility; as such it is wrong - despite having been mostly good enough in the past, when less interest was paid to those who did not fit well into the binary categorization scheme; And despite remaining good enough in a majority of cases.

It was certainly easier to categorize all humans as either 'male' or 'female'; but the existence of a number of edge cases shows that this categorization is useless when dealing with those persons who are difficult to classify in that way. So to do so is empirically (as well as morally) wrong.

So, yes, I do have a justification for that opinion, and I apologize if my analogy was insufficiently clear about that justification. I hope that the above clarifies things for you.

(btw I have never heard of Garth Hill/Mountain, so I have no opinion on that).
 
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So, here I will briefly (a full analysis would take too long) assess the evidence for or against Danica Roem being a woman, under the concept "woman" traditionally used in English. I will begin with an assessment as I seem to intuitively grasp the concept "woman", since my understanding of the concept does not seem to have changed so it's likely to reflect the traditional one, but also invite interested readers to make their own assessments.
First, when we regularly assess whether something falls into some category (e.g., whether something is a car, a horse, or a chessboard), we don't normally need to have a definition of the concept that picks that category in terms of other concepts. So, I'm not going to try to define "woman", or "man" for that matter.
Still, I will use a number of arguments to at least to narrow down the concept, enough to make an assessment.
Second, some concepts are present in all human societies we know of, e.g., the concept of water, or a morally good person, or being ill or healthy. Other concepts are not like that, and are only found in some societies. Examples are the concepts of a horse, a planet, a train or a senator. Now, some of the concepts in the latter category pick human-made stuff, and others do not. But regardless of which category a concept belongs to, we can generally make proper assessments as to whether it applies to some object. So, the issue of whether gender is a "social construct" is beside the point here, at least as long "social construct" picks things like chess, as a common example.
Third, it's not the case that the term "woman" picks the property of having the inner feeling and/or belief of being a woman. That would be viciously circular. This does not rule out that all women actually have that property and no non-woman actually has it, but at least, the term woman has to be picking something else.

That aside, I will begin with some considerations about how we come to think that a person is a woman, and what we can reckon about the concept from that. This is not as an attempt to provide a full analysis of the concept or a definition in terms of other concepts (which, as I said, we don't normally need), but at least to narrow it down enough to make an assessment.

So, usually, it's enough to look at a person's face to when we assess whether that person is a woman. But that's not decisive. In case the face looks like a woman, but the person has a penis (and other male sexual and reproductive organs), normally we would say that that's a man. However, it might be that there is something that weighs more than sexual and reproductive organs. In fiction, we have cases in which people swap bodies. Let's say that Alice has XX chromosomes, female sexual and reproductive organs, and a female mind. Bob has male counterparts. They swap bodies. Is Alice still a woman?
I think so. While I don't think swapping bodies is possible in the real world (because there are no souls, spirits, etc.), the assessment suggests that our concept is such that, at least in case of conflict, minds prevail.
Now, suppose it's a brain transplant. Would Alice's brain in Bob's rest of the body be still a woman?
I think so, and that gave me reasons to believe minds weighed more. However, after asking other people, now I'm not sure how common those intuitions are.

A scenario in which there seems to be considerable disagreement is one in which a baby is born with female(male) sexual and reproductive organs, but a male(female) brain/mind. If the person grows into adulthood and still has a male(female) brain/mind but female(male) sexual and reproductive organs, would that person be a man, a woman, or neither?
Also, there is the question of how big and permanent the differences between female and male brains are. If they're so small that hormone treatments can change them all or most, then probably non-mental traits prevail. A female body builder who takes steroids is not a man. But then again, it may well be that some of the differences in the structures of female and male brains develop slowly over time (during fetal development, adolescence, etc.), and aren't easily changeable.

In any case, I'm uncertain on this, but I will in the rest of this post hold that probably (but not certainly), a person with a female mind and male sexual organs is a woman. But before I go on, I will mention two other possibilities:

If a person with male sexual and reproductive organs but a female mind is a man, then Danica Roem is a man regardless of whether he has a female or a male mind.
If a person with male sexual and reproductive organs but a female mind is neither a man nor a woman, then Danica Roem is either a man or neither a man nor a woman.

This is a particular problem for leftists, because it's a usual leftist belief that there is no such thing as a female mind or a male mind. But if that is so, then a person with male sexual and reproductive organs is a man, and that's that. Since it's clear to me that there is such thing as a male and a female mind, I will go on and assess: Does Danica Roem have a female mind?

Roem normally developed male sexual and reproductive organs, as well as male secondary characteristics, from Adam's apple (much larger in males than in females) to the structure of the shoulders, etc. Nearly always, a person with those traits has a male mind, so that's very strong evidence that Roem has a male mind. It seems that in order for Roem to have a female mind, a lot of things would have to have malfunctioned.

What's the counterevidence?

Roem claims to be a woman, and that's some evidence, as Roem has more information about Roem to make the assessment. But Roem does not have better information about others, and in order to make the assessment that Roem is a woman, Roem needs to compare people in the two categories (men and women) with Roem, and conclude on that basis that Roem resembles women more than Roem resembles men.
But a malfunctioning in the part of Roem's brain/mind that makes that comparison and makes the categorization seems more likely to me than the sort of malfunction(s) that would have led to the full or even predominant development of a female brain.

Now, there are some studies that show that the brains/minds of people with male sexual organs but claim to be women are in some ways female-like to an extent. But the evidence I've seen at most points to a mixed of male and female characteristics, not to predominantly female minds. If so, given the rest of the properties (e.g., male sexual and reproductive organs and secondary traits), it semes probable that Roem is a man to me - or if not, at least not a woman.

But can the inner sense of whether one is a woman be mistaken?
Sure, since (among other reasons):

a. It seems that that inner sense can only operate by means of assessing whether one is more similar to women than to me, or the other way around. So, in addition to information about oneself, it needs information about others, and then compare them. There is plenty of things that can go wrong, regardless whether that inner sense results from a dedicated system of the mind or is the result of more general mental processes.
b. We know it failed in the cases of those people who change their mind. For example, there are people with female(male) sexual and reproductive organs who claimed to be men(women), and now claim they were mistaken. There are examples that don't involve Christian beliefs, or Muslim beliefs, etc. They may be a minority of people making transgender claims, but it shows that the system sometimes fails.

But perhaps, there are more studies about transgender people I haven't read, and such that if I were to read them (eventually, I will probably read more), I would change my mind on whether Roem probably has a female mind. If so, then I would have to go back to the issue of what prevails in case of conflict (i.e., minds/brains vs. sexual and reproductive organs). If you have evidence you think is decisive or at least good enough to make it probable that Roem is a woman, links are appreciated.


Before I address the issue of whether the meaning of the words has changed, I have a few attacks to reply to, so I'll get to that.
 
They believe that they are women, men, etc., but that does not mean they are.

Yes, Angra Mainyu, it does.
No, it obviously does not.
First, there are people with female(male) sexual organs who believed that they were men(women), but now they believe that they were mistaken, and were women(men) all along. So, that refutes your claim, even if they are a minority of people making transgender claims.
Second, for that matter, the fact that many people believe that they were born again, or that their soul has a special mark from baptism, or that they are alien abductees, etc., does not make it so. Millions of people are vastly mistaken about themselves, even about things that are very important to them. Do you have any good reason to believe this is different?
RavenSky said:
Angra Mainyu said:
RavenSky said:
But once they choose to live outwardly as the gender they know themselves to be - ESPECIALLY when their outward appearance is matching their gender, what GLAAD calls "visibly transgender" - it is not up to people like Angra Mainyu to tell them they are wrong or to insist on using the wrong pronoun.
That's one of the worst parts. Of course, I can make my own assessment as to whether they are correct.
No, you really can't. Not ethically or rationally, anyway. It would be a "No True Scotsman" fallacy, and rude as fuck besides.

I will stipulate that you can *think* whatever the hell you want, but as soon as you makes those thoughts public by refusing to use the person's preferred pronouns or telling someone they are *really* a man when they are a transgender woman... you have crossed the line. You can still do it, of course... and suffer the social consequences of your boorish behavior. You might even lose your job or get sued for it. :shrug:

No, you have crossed the line by accusing me of crossing the line. My behavior is not boorish. Yours is religious, and unjust. Would you say the same if I were challenging a person's claim that he is an alien abductee, or that he will go to heaven because he's been saved by Jesus? If not, what's the relevant difference?

As for my job, getting sued, etc., how would you expect that they would find out?
 
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