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Can Religion Still Be Useful?

AthenaAwakened

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Early 20th century theologians as well as many poets, journalists, essayists, and philosophers were urging the public to embrace a progressive approach to faith that was concerned with behavior more than beliefs, that was rooted in ethics and not in magical thinking. Maybe it was WWII, or maybe it was the advent of evangelists on TV and radio, but Americans did not embrace their sages at the time. We can hope that a more rational approach to faith is being born in 21st century America.
 
Religion was never useful, except perhaps to those in power.

Why do totalitarian (communist) regimes suppress religion if it so useful to them?

The dictator wants to be the only authority. Sorta like regimes that are controlled by a religion outlaw all other religions because they want to be the only authority. Ancient empires made it more simple by just declaring the leader a god to be worshiped and obeyed.
 
Make up your minds.
Useful to those in power? Or not?
 
Make up your minds.
Useful to those in power? Or not?
Absolutely useful for politicians in representative or democratic governments but you chose totalitarian states. For totalitarian states, religion is competition to their absolute authority except countries like North Korea where the Kims are seen as gods, the state religion. A Catholic seeking office to represent a predominately Catholic district will lean heavily on his religion (and the religion of the district) to get elected. The same for Baptists running in a predominately Baptist district, same for any other sect.

The political leaders in Islamic states lead their population around by the nose using religion by interpreting the Quran to say what they want the people to believe.
 
The backwardnes and anti-intellectualism of modern day Christian fundamentalist type Christians makes me say, no. As long as Christianity exists, these types will exist, and as long as they are numerous and politically powerful, this type of religion will be a pestilence. Not very useful.
 
Early 20th century theologians as well as many poets, journalists, essayists, and philosophers were urging the public to embrace a progressive approach to faith that was concerned with behavior more than beliefs, that was rooted in ethics and not in magical thinking. Maybe it was WWII, or maybe it was the advent of evangelists on TV and radio, but Americans did not embrace their sages at the time. We can hope that a more rational approach to faith is being born in 21st century America.
Despite the quibbling over the word "still" in the title, I have some thoughts that are actually on topic.

If you scrub all the superstitious aspects away from religion and only keep the ethical aspects, does it still qualify as religion? Why not just call it Ethics?

This argument seems to be built to trick progressive religionists into easing into secularism while still feeling comfortable going to their usual places of worship. If that's the goal I don't really have a problem with it. Except that it's a silly argument.

Just take the time to recognize that Religion is worthless. Why? Because whatever ethics it offers is inextricably entangled with bogus superstition. Meanwhile, Ethics standing on it's own is great.

Edit: It occurs to me that religion offers one other positive thing that that Ethics does not, which is community. This is not a trivial contribution, but it is also not unique. Sports, schools, and games of all sorts bring people together in positive ways. So I still value Religion as a net drag on society.

PS, OT: My aunt is quite religious and fairly progressive and lives on the outskirts of Springfield MO near where the video posted above was filmed. I wonder if that's the church she goes to.
 
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The problem with ethics and religion is that if you mix the two, we end up arguing with the religious extremists who manage to be very wrong about ethics so often.
 
Can Religion Still Be Useful?

Potentially yes. The problem reveals itself in the size of this reasonable man’s audience. It looks like a small venue, the applause at the end sounds like maybe it’s 50 persons. He complains the biggest church of his city is a superstitious one where people talk gibberish and believe it’s angels. There’s a reason that other church is more popular: those people are attaining ecstatic states of consciousness where this guy’s zapping a lot of calories by asking people to think.

He thinks religion’s best use is challenging people to behave more ethically. The only way a “faith” (and he seems to use the word for “set of beliefs”) could challenge our behaviors and make us rethink them and change is if there’s a reward for doing so. Because there's much inertia to overcome and become better people. The rewards that people generally DO NOT look for are: facts, theories, studies, descriptions, and similar. Those need to be imbued with something ecstatic about them or there’s little appeal, beyond just feeling smugly "right". People are great at feeling right but yet quick to drop making action and belief consistent when making choices that cost them something. Religion has always been useful for adding that extremely important dimension of motivation, but for it to not be crazy it’d need to be highly revised in its beliefs. Ecstasy, or “heightened states” where devotion to the venerated Awesome Something is the difference that makes all the difference, and it seems to not get discussed as it should be since people focus too exclusively on their views about the correctness or incorrectness of beliefs. The other church in the pastor’s city is much bigger than his own because they get to speak as angels, not because they’re wielding more political power but because they offer more than mere intellection. He’s bashing them for their silliness while at the same time tacitly admitting his own powerlessness to draw and influence more people.

Is it still religion if you strip the superstition and keep only the ethics? No. It takes something that informs an ethic, that penetrates and actually motivates behavioral change. Namely contemplative and celebratory rituals that take people out of themselves and allow something “ecstatic” and thrilling and meaningful… to feel “at-one” with something bigger than themselves.

I think ecstatic states are central to a fully "connected" human existence. Think of how rewarding orgasms are to motivate relations… Now, how to motivate better relations with earthly concerns instead of with fantastical beings? Answer: Something bodily and pleasurable enough that people want the experiences repeated and seek them out, like ecstatic emotions evoked in relation with earth and the material cosmos. Is religion needed for this? Yeah, I’m thinking probably so. All I've ever seen from secularists is eggheaded "only this is the correct way to think" stuff.
 
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Why do totalitarian (communist) regimes suppress religion if it so useful to them?

See Underseer's post.

See my reply.

The idea that religion serves the purpose of political tyranny doesnt work because the atheist tyrant wannabe could always lead a popular revolution.

Atheism has always been an available menu option and the tribe has ALWAYS had the choice to take their unwanted witch doctor, shaman, Old Testament prophet, etc and throw them off a cliff.
 
Deuteronomy 13
13 “If a prophet or someone who has dreams arises among you and proclaims a sign or wonder to you, 2 and that sign or wonder he has promised you comes about, but he says, ‘Let us follow other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us worship them,’ 3 do not listen to that prophet’s words or to that dreamer. For the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul. 4 You must follow the Lord your God and fear Him. You must keep His commands and listen to His voice; you must worship Him and remain faithful[a] to Him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he has urged rebellion against the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the place of slavery, to turn you from the way the Lord your God has commanded you to walk. You must purge the evil from you.
 
In any case, it's too late now.

You had your chance. You blew it. Again and again and again. It's been millennia. You gotta know when it's over. (It's like talking to an addict.)
 
Religion, superstition, magic, woo, call it whatever you want, but it will always be useful to the scientifically illiterate and the intellectually challenged, slaves, masters, criminals and con artists, thieves, tyrants, supremacists and all would-be klansmen.
 
We fundamentally do need religion. By that I don't mean organized religion but rather that we do need some way to integrate and interface with magical and superstitious thinking. Why? Because, fundamentally a very large part of our psyche works that way. For example love and sex are entirely irrational - they do not follow from a conscious rational decision but are rather instinct driven. To make an attempt at purely rational living is a form of denial and naivety. If we are going to ever be able to come to terms with the irrational parts of our psyches then finding a way to relate to that is imperative for humanity as a whole.

I don't necessarily mean that we must adopt superstitious thinking but that perhaps it needs to be re-framed in such a way that it can be harmonized with rational thinking. For example, from time to time I will use hallucinogenic shamanic substances or meditative techniques to induce a temporary psychosis during which I will have the opportunity to deal with "evil spirits". Do these "evil spirits" have an independent reality to them? I have no idea. I practice skepticism about the absolute nature of reality so perhaps they are merely irrational representations of neurological phenomena, perhaps not. Either way, it doesn't matter because the methods I use produce results for my psychological well-being in a way that rational thinking will never be able to. In fact a large part of the "source" of such "evil spirits" is an over-reliance on rational thinking - a kind of denial and "disembodiment" from the instincts. The idea that there is an entropy between unconscious (instinctive) drives and the conscious mind is well established and accepted in psychodynamic theory and psychology. It's only when we are able to have some relatedness to those instinctual aspects of ourselves that we are able to have some autonomy from them, otherwise we are subject to "obsession" and "possession" by them.

For me, the first step is to absolutely engage honestly in materialism, skepticism and rationality - to pull ourselves completely out of the irrational. The second step is to re-engage and integrate with it. If the first step isn't performed there is a danger in taking things too seriously and getting swept up in the ensuing chaos. In the sense of Greek philosophy, the Logos must first be well established. Our myths describe the psychological process very well - from Christ's journey into hell to redeem the lost souls to Theseus and his slaying of the Minotaur. Of course, one has to see these as psychological metaphor rather than literal truth, otherwise it's likely one will be driven to insanity (fall prey to the "sirens" or "be taken by the fairies").

Psychologically speaking the whole theist-atheist, skeptic vs superstitious debate is really an externalized projection of the ongoing struggle between the rational and irrational functions of an individual's psyche to establish dominion over it's opposite. I think one would do well to withdraw the projection and look at the internal motivations and this is why we need some form of "religiosity" or some engagement with the irrational function.
 
We fundamentally do need religion. By that I don't mean organized religion but rather that we do need some way to integrate and interface with magical and superstitious thinking. Why? Because, fundamentally a very large part of our psyche works that way. For example love and sex are entirely irrational - they do not follow from a conscious rational decision but are rather instinct driven. To make an attempt at purely rational living is a form of denial and naivety. If we are going to ever be able to come to terms with the irrational parts of our psyches then finding a way to relate to that is imperative for humanity as a whole.

I don't necessarily mean that we must adopt superstitious thinking but that perhaps it needs to be re-framed in such a way that it can be harmonized with rational thinking. For example, from time to time I will use hallucinogenic shamanic substances or meditative techniques to induce a temporary psychosis during which I will have the opportunity to deal with "evil spirits". Do these "evil spirits" have an independent reality to them? I have no idea. I practice skepticism about the absolute nature of reality so perhaps they are merely irrational representations of neurological phenomena, perhaps not. Either way, it doesn't matter because the methods I use produce results for my psychological well-being in a way that rational thinking will never be able to. In fact a large part of the "source" of such "evil spirits" is an over-reliance on rational thinking - a kind of denial and "disembodiment" from the instincts. The idea that there is an entropy between unconscious (instinctive) drives and the conscious mind is well established and accepted in psychodynamic theory and psychology. It's only when we are able to have some relatedness to those instinctual aspects of ourselves that we are able to have some autonomy from them, otherwise we are subject to "obsession" and "possession" by them.

For me, the first step is to absolutely engage honestly in materialism, skepticism and rationality - to pull ourselves completely out of the irrational. The second step is to re-engage and integrate with it. If the first step isn't performed there is a danger in taking things too seriously and getting swept up in the ensuing chaos. In the sense of Greek philosophy, the Logos must first be well established. Our myths describe the psychological process very well - from Christ's journey into hell to redeem the lost souls to Theseus and his slaying of the Minotaur. Of course, one has to see these as psychological metaphor rather than literal truth, otherwise it's likely one will be driven to insanity (fall prey to the "sirens" or "be taken by the fairies").

Psychologically speaking the whole theist-atheist, skeptic vs superstitious debate is really an externalized projection of the ongoing struggle between the rational and irrational functions of an individual's psyche to establish dominion over it's opposite. I think one would do well to withdraw the projection and look at the internal motivations and this is why we need some form of "religiosity" or some engagement with the irrational function.

In short: "we need to understand how we functions."

That is completely different from "we need religion".
 
See Underseer's post.

See my reply.

The idea that religion serves the purpose of political tyranny doesnt work...
Want to discuss that idea relative to Putin and the Orthodox church?

Atheism has always been an available menu option and the tribe has ALWAYS had the choice to take their unwanted witch doctor, shaman, Old Testament prophet, etc and throw them off a cliff.
When monotheism was tried out in Egypt for the first time, that didn't work out too well. Are you suggesting that monotheism is false?

- - - Updated - - -

We fundamentally do need religion. By that I don't mean organized religion but rather that we do need some way to integrate and interface with magical and superstitious thinking. Why? Because, fundamentally a very large part of our psyche works that way. For example love and sex are entirely irrational
How is "love" irrational? "Love" and our social intuitions developed because it helped our species. There are other species that mate for life as well.

I don't necessarily mean that we must adopt superstitious thinking but that perhaps it needs to be re-framed in such a way that it can be harmonized with rational thinking.
You mean like how atheists already do it?
 
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