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Bernie is not a socialist nor a communist

PyramidHead

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Marxist-Leninist
He's a social democrat, and like all social democrats representing imperial settler-colonial states, his aim is not to end all oppression and exploitation but to channel its spoils to workers rather than capitalists in his own country.

He critiques the billions of dollars that is concentrated in the hands of a tiny minority, but instead of acknowledging that those billions are stolen from the workers and resources of other countries, he simply laments the fact that we don't use that stolen wealth for American school children and health care for Americans.

He repeats most, but not all, US State Department talking points about actual socialist and communist societies. In days past, he had nice things to say about some of their leaders, but now is basically on the same page as the rest of the foreign policy establishment about Venezuela, China, and other places that had the audacity to protect the revolutions they staged against their oppressors. In this regard, he is basically like Noam Chomsky, who criticizes all authority even when it is wielded by those he claims to represent.

He doesn't advocate state or even collective ownership of the basic means of production in society. He wants some nationalization around the edges, perhaps for big banks, but more often uses the "break them up" verbiage rather than "expropriate". This reflects his goal of making the conditions of wage labor more acceptable to workers without changing the system of wage labor itself.

He reveals the shallowness of his "socialism" when he uses Martin Luther King Jr.'s line about how America is "socialism for the rich, rugged capitalism for the poor." In criticizing Trump, Bernie has called him "a socialist, but for his rich friends." This is something no socialist would say; socialism is, by definition, a system in which the majority of workers exercises democratic control over the ownership class in order to transition society towards communism. Bernie is probably just being rhetorical here, but it's consistent with his other ideas: he, like most Americans, thinks of socialism as a paternalistic government that takes care of those harmed the most by capitalism, while not threatening but only mitigating capitalism's ugliest effects slightly.

Again, this view is basically an endorsement of continued imperialism and resource extraction from Africa, Asia, and South America, but using those resources in a more egalitarian way within American borders.

So, why should socialists and communists support Bernie Sanders? The reason is class consciousness. Political leaders who run on platforms that are, relative to the prevailing consensus, social-ish, can galvanize revolutionary sentiment in the population. I'm an example of a communist who was brought into the left wing by Bernie's 2016 run, and I know several others who are on the same path. Like them, I started with Bernie and his praise of "the Nordic model", got mad at the CIA after reading Noam Chomsky, and got mad at Noam Chomsky after reading Michael Parenti. Now I read Mao, Stalin, and Lenin, and I wish Bernie Sanders was 1% as socialist as everybody seems to think he is.

But I acknowledge that (1) improving conditions of the working class in the imperial core can lead to a more organized and militant left wing, (2) adopting social democratic policies is, in the American moment, probably the only viable path to ameliorating climate catastrophe, and (3) the opportunity to take part in a movement to revitalize socialist ideals may not come again. However, my fear is that should Bernie become president, it will have the effect of placating the left wing rather than activating them. This has happened everywhere social democratic reform has taken place, and eventually a resurgent far-right movement will take advantage of this false sense of security and you get Juan Guaido or Boris Johnson.

I hope that the left is continually energized even if Bernie wins, because he doesn't fix even half of what's wrong about America even if every one of his policy proposals becomes a reality.
 
I think your thinking is mostly correct. Climate catastrophe should be your number one concern.

I will reframe this for you. You can keep waiting for things to get worse before they get better. In which case, we can have our Marxist revolution after the apocalypse and society rebuilds itself on a burning planet. OR you can vote for Bernie because it is "the only viable path to ameliorating climate catastrophe."

BUT here's reality. There isn't really a Bernie option. Bloomberg will win the Democratic nomination. Bloomberg will lose to Trump. Climate catastrophe is inevitable. It's not going to get worse before it gets better. Socialism in a burning fire isn't better. It's going to get worse before it gets worse.
 
Is there a moderate here that would prefer Trump to Bernie? If there is, I missed the post. We're not the ones you need to convince. The ones you need to convince are over there ->.
And you're going to need to define the various flavors of socialism first.

Should The Bern get the nomination and Bloomberg doesn't live up to his promise to throw down on Trump regardless, I'll even help support the crazy old socialist financially.
 
I think your thinking is mostly correct. Climate catastrophe should be your number one concern.

I will reframe this for you. You can keep waiting for things to get worse before they get better. In which case, we can have our Marxist revolution after the apocalypse and society rebuilds itself on a burning planet. OR you can vote for Bernie because it is "the only viable path to ameliorating climate catastrophe."

BUT here's reality. There isn't really a Bernie option. Bloomberg will win the Democratic nomination. Bloomberg will lose to Trump. Climate catastrophe is inevitable. It's not going to get worse before it gets better. Socialism in a burning fire isn't better. It's going to get worse before it gets worse.

The accelerationist in me hopes that such an outcome, were it to occur, would radicalize adherents of electoralism as the primary mechanism of societal change into abandoning that approach. But I suspect you're right and that it will take more than that, since it's gotten this bad already and people are still voting for one of the two major parties.
 
I think your thinking is mostly correct. Climate catastrophe should be your number one concern.

I will reframe this for you. You can keep waiting for things to get worse before they get better. In which case, we can have our Marxist revolution after the apocalypse and society rebuilds itself on a burning planet. OR you can vote for Bernie because it is "the only viable path to ameliorating climate catastrophe."

BUT here's reality. There isn't really a Bernie option. Bloomberg will win the Democratic nomination. Bloomberg will lose to Trump. Climate catastrophe is inevitable. It's not going to get worse before it gets better. Socialism in a burning fire isn't better. It's going to get worse before it gets worse.

The accelerationist in me hopes that such an outcome, were it to occur, would radicalize adherents of electoralism as the primary mechanism of societal change into abandoning that approach. But I suspect you're right and that it will take more than that, since it's gotten this bad already and people are still voting for one of the two major parties.

I appreciate both of you for sharing your optimism. :)
Of course the bad news is that it WILL get better.
The good news is that all it will take is for the number of humans on this planet to be reduced to less than one billion.
And the best news - even if HSS goes the way of the dinosaur, the planet will be okay for a few billion more years.
Why worry? Be happy!
 
I think your thinking is mostly correct. Climate catastrophe should be your number one concern.

I will reframe this for you. You can keep waiting for things to get worse before they get better. In which case, we can have our Marxist revolution after the apocalypse and society rebuilds itself on a burning planet. OR you can vote for Bernie because it is "the only viable path to ameliorating climate catastrophe."

BUT here's reality. There isn't really a Bernie option. Bloomberg will win the Democratic nomination. Bloomberg will lose to Trump. Climate catastrophe is inevitable. It's not going to get worse before it gets better. Socialism in a burning fire isn't better. It's going to get worse before it gets worse.

The accelerationist in me hopes that such an outcome, were it to occur, would radicalize adherents of electoralism as the primary mechanism of societal change into abandoning that approach. But I suspect you're right and that it will take more than that, since it's gotten this bad already and people are still voting for one of the two major parties.

I appreciate both of you for sharing your optimism. :)
Of course the bad news is that it WILL get better.
The good news is that all it will take is for the number of humans on this planet to be reduced to less than one billion.
Or the overturning of the existing economic order in favor of one that is rationally planned for human flourishing and sustainability. We can be flippant about mass extinction because we are the beneficiaries of the white supremacist domination of other parts of the world and will probably be okay; they are not so cavalier about the prospect
 
I think your thinking is mostly correct. Climate catastrophe should be your number one concern.

I will reframe this for you. You can keep waiting for things to get worse before they get better. In which case, we can have our Marxist revolution after the apocalypse and society rebuilds itself on a burning planet. OR you can vote for Bernie because it is "the only viable path to ameliorating climate catastrophe."

BUT here's reality. There isn't really a Bernie option. Bloomberg will win the Democratic nomination. Bloomberg will lose to Trump. Climate catastrophe is inevitable. It's not going to get worse before it gets better. Socialism in a burning fire isn't better. It's going to get worse before it gets worse.

The accelerationist in me hopes that such an outcome, were it to occur, would radicalize adherents of electoralism as the primary mechanism of societal change into abandoning that approach. But I suspect you're right and that it will take more than that, since it's gotten this bad already and people are still voting for one of the two major parties.

The problem is that the wellness of citizens in powerful countries isn't affected too much by the Turning Point of No Return. If our personal well-being and livelihoods were directly affected by the longer term future in immediate observable ways, we'd have a revolution on our hands. In 20 years, there will be massive civil unrest due to climate.
 
Or the overturning of the existing economic order in favor of one that is rationally planned for human flourishing and sustainability.

I'd like a new economic order that gives everyone a yacht and a Lear Citation CJ1.
But we'll still need the A&P guys, not to mention the avionics dudes. But if they all have CJ1s too, who is going to take care of MINE?

Yeah - you're right. There is a real dearth of rational planners for sustained human flourishing*. Maybe we should settle for yachts only. That way at least we won't all die the minute our engines quit.

*Please let me know when you find one.
 
I think your thinking is mostly correct. Climate catastrophe should be your number one concern.

I will reframe this for you. You can keep waiting for things to get worse before they get better. In which case, we can have our Marxist revolution after the apocalypse and society rebuilds itself on a burning planet. OR you can vote for Bernie because it is "the only viable path to ameliorating climate catastrophe."

BUT here's reality. There isn't really a Bernie option. Bloomberg will win the Democratic nomination. Bloomberg will lose to Trump. Climate catastrophe is inevitable. It's not going to get worse before it gets better. Socialism in a burning fire isn't better. It's going to get worse before it gets worse.

The accelerationist in me hopes that such an outcome, were it to occur, would radicalize adherents of electoralism as the primary mechanism of societal change into abandoning that approach. But I suspect you're right and that it will take more than that, since it's gotten this bad already and people are still voting for one of the two major parties.

The problem is that the wellness of citizens in powerful countries isn't affected too much by the Turning Point of No Return. If our personal well-being and livelihoods were directly affected by the longer term future in immediate observable ways, we'd have a revolution on our hands. In 20 years, there will be massive civil unrest due to climate.

Exactly. That's why many communists have abandoned the idea of a revolution in the white imperial core, and are building up the exploited and colonized nations to lead the charge. China's Belt and Road initiative is one way of doing this, though it has other goals as well.

Bernie is also deeply uninformed about China, incidentally. It's quite ironic to me that purely because of his business interests, the candidate with the most accurate idea of China's economy and society is Bloomberg.

This is also an issue that divides leftists in America considerably, many of whom are still in the sway of American and European propaganda about the communist societies of the world, and oppose China while supporting Bernie. They are not beyond hope, as I used to be such a person.
 
Or the overturning of the existing economic order in favor of one that is rationally planned for human flourishing and sustainability.

I'd like a new economic order that gives everyone a yacht and a Lear Citation CJ1.
But we'll still need the A&P guys, not to mention the avionics dudes. But if they all have CJ1s too, who is going to take care of MINE?

Yeah - you're right. There is a real dearth of rational planners for sustained human flourishing*. Maybe we should settle for yachts only. That way at least we won't all die the minute our engines quit.

*Please let me know when you find one.

*Since you asked

There will be naysayers, especially here since it's mostly an American/Western forum, but I will defend the PRC as a revolutionary project aimed at building a society for the interests of human beings, at every turn. Also look to the DPRK, or as it has been called by the countries that bombed it to dust and sliced it latitudinally, "North" Korea.
 
Other ways in which Sanders diverges from (or is sharply opposed to) socialist ideals:

-He supports a "two-state solution" that preserves both Israel and Palestine, as if they both have an equal right to exist rather than the former being the illegitimate occupying force of the latter

-He voted for bombings in Kosovo and Bosnia, for the first Gulf War, for sanctions on Iran and Libya, for the use of force against anyone Bush deemed responsible for 9/11, and against closing Guantanamo Bay

-He has backpedaled or disavowed previous statements of support for Maduro in Venezuela, Castro in Cuba, and Morales in Bolivia, retreating to the position that "humanitarian aid" is needed in such countries rather than leaving them the hell alone

All that said, he is still closer to a socialist than anyone who has ever come within striking distance of the presidency. This article from the Party for Socialism and Liberation breaks down why it still makes sense to support him:

For our purposes here, the point is that it is not surprising that the mass reawakening of anti-capitalist and pro-socialist consciousness would register profoundly in the electoral realm, the path of least resistance. For tens of millions, it feels more legitimate and more possible to identify as a socialist or promote a socialist candidate in an election cycle rather than at a militant street protest or barricade. Given the relative smallness and limited influence of the revolutionary socialist trends in the United States, with whom these tens of millions have largely never interacted, how could it be otherwise? That the form of this struggle is currently inside the Democratic primary contest in some ways obscures its potentially radical or even revolutionary next manifestations.

The ruling class and its “thinkers,” however, are keenly aware that such trends can morph quickly into a truly mass, militant movement against a system dominated by billionaires. The ruling class, because of its role in society, is more acutely class conscious than the classes over which they dominate. They fear more than anything a new consciousness arising from the mass of the people who, should they begin to first stir and then move together with new demands, could become an irresistible force.

So far, the dynamic surge of the Sanders campaign reflects both the nascent mass movement for radical change and further stimulates this phenomenon inside the United States. The last year has witnessed a wave of mass protests all over the capitalist world. The subterranean yearnings for radical change are starting to burst out into the open, above ground, and they are rattling the existing social order and the ruling classes from Chile and Ecuador to Sudan, France, Lebanon, Iraq and beyond.

In short: not him, us. But nobody other than him will give us conditions remotely as favorable for actual progress.
 
"New Study From Yale Finds Medicare For All Would Save 68,000 Lives And $458 Billion"

Improving the prognosis of health care in the USA

Summary
Although health care expenditure per capita is higher in the USA than in any other country, more than 37 million Americans do not have health insurance, and 41 million more have inadequate access to care. Efforts are ongoing to repeal the Affordable Care Act which would exacerbate health-care inequities. By contrast, a universal system, such as that proposed in the Medicare for All Act, has the potential to transform the availability and efficiency of American health-care services. Taking into account both the costs of coverage expansion and the savings that would be achieved through the Medicare for All Act, we calculate that a single-payer, universal health-care system is likely to lead to a 13% savings in national health-care expenditure, equivalent to more than US$450 billion annually (based on the value of the US$ in 2017). The entire system could be funded with less financial outlay than is incurred by employers and households paying for health-care premiums combined with existing government allocations. This shift to single-payer health care would provide the greatest relief to lower-income households. Furthermore, we estimate that ensuring health-care access for all Americans would save more than 68 000 lives and 1·73 million life-years every year compared with the status quo.
 
"New Study From Yale Finds Medicare For All Would Save 68,000 Lives And $458 Billion"

Improving the prognosis of health care in the USA

Summary
Although health care expenditure per capita is higher in the USA than in any other country, more than 37 million Americans do not have health insurance, and 41 million more have inadequate access to care. Efforts are ongoing to repeal the Affordable Care Act which would exacerbate health-care inequities. By contrast, a universal system, such as that proposed in the Medicare for All Act, has the potential to transform the availability and efficiency of American health-care services. Taking into account both the costs of coverage expansion and the savings that would be achieved through the Medicare for All Act, we calculate that a single-payer, universal health-care system is likely to lead to a 13% savings in national health-care expenditure, equivalent to more than US$450 billion annually (based on the value of the US$ in 2017). The entire system could be funded with less financial outlay than is incurred by employers and households paying for health-care premiums combined with existing government allocations. This shift to single-payer health care would provide the greatest relief to lower-income households. Furthermore, we estimate that ensuring health-care access for all Americans would save more than 68 000 lives and 1·73 million life-years every year compared with the status quo.

Single payer health care is an example of a policy that has been adopted by the most advanced capitalist nations in the world without affecting their ability to remain capitalist and do all the things capitalists like to do. To say it leads to socialism is kind of odd in light of that fact. However, there are many ways to provide publicly funded health care to the people.

In the aforementioned capitalist nations, the wealth that is used to fund the welfare state (including the single payer system of health coverage) can be traced back to the labor, resources, and often literally the bodies of workers living in the global south, who do not get to enjoy the comfortable "Nordic model" that their fishing, mining, farming, carpentry, sewing, machining, factory maintenance, printing, transporting, and overall toiling produces. Every capitalist business that sells food, clothing, electronics, media, etc. depends wholly on people in other parts of the world doing the majority of the work to make whatever they sell, to make a critical component of the process of selling it, or uses the societal infrastructure that was built either by imported slaves or using materials stolen from Africa. The vehicles that make commerce possible between land, sea, and air run on fossil fuels that were forcibly extracted from the ground in places that don't get to enjoy generous welfare states. The technology that enables modern record-keeping on the scale required for universal coverage, or even private insurance, rests on rare earth minerals and underpaid technical support from South America and Asia. The dirty money of billionaires who utilize these sources of raw material and labor is funneled to tax havens like Switzerland, where the interest paid on their ill-gotten wealth goes into the pool available to give Swiss citizens a comfortable life.

To be a socialist is to understand that this is a parasitic relationship, even if I benefit from the parasitism, and even if I am also the victim of a different kind of parasitism as a worker myself. It doesn't mean I don't support Medicare for All, but I temper that support with a commitment to dismantle and replace the violent, extractive engine that fuels it with one that doesn't require pillaging the world so I can get my generic Prozac.
 
More imperialism from Bernie:

Sanders tells New York Times he would consider a preemptive strike against Iran or North Korea

Perhaps most significant and chilling is the response to the third question in the Times’ survey.

Question: Would you consider military force to pre-empt an Iranian or North Korean nuclear or missile test?

Answer: Yes.

A Sanders White House, according to his campaign, would be open to launching a military strike against Iran or nuclear-armed North Korea to prevent (not respond to) not even a threatened missile or nuclear strike against the United States, but a mere weapons test. This is a breathtakingly reckless position no less incendiary than those advanced by the Trump administration.

This, to me, is the most damning thing he has ever said, and it is something that would be an absolute dealbreaker for me in a normal, sane country that was holding an election for public office. It should disqualify anyone running for command of the largest and most destructive military apparatus the world has ever known. Only Warren and Yang replied "no" to this question, and for the usual strategic reasons that ultimately serve the interests of American empire anyway. The article concludes with this dire warning:

The Democrats’ differences with Trump on foreign policy, though bitter, are tactical. Both parties share the strategic orientation of asserting US global hegemony above all through force of arms.

No matter how much Sanders blusters about inequality, it is impossible to oppose the depredations of the ruling class at home while supporting its plunder and oppression abroad.

Sanders is no more an apostle of peace than he is a representative of the working class. Both in foreign and domestic policy, he is an instrument of the ruling class for channeling the growing movement of the working class and opposition to capitalism back behind the Democratic Party and the two-party system of capitalist rule in America.

I'm not that hardlined against Bernie (most days), but I concede that one function of his campaign is to sanitize anti-capitalist sentiment in America to a form that is less dangerous and ultimately unable to challenge it. It elevates exactly those leftists who see injustice in this country as something that can be solved within its borders, without realizing the extent to which it depends upon bombs and sanctions abroad. My hope is that this contradiction will continue to develop over the next decade until people are forced to confront it, and that means we don't stop at Bernie becoming president. We don't settle for him, but we also can't back down just because of his flaws. The good news, from my perspective, is that the wheels are already in motion. Whether Bernie wins or not, the left is activated in America and its factions are rising to the surface to duke out their contradictions. Once that starts, it will unfold and resolve one way or another.
 
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