'Baby, It's Cold Outside,' Seen As Sexist, Frozen Out By Radio Stations

[ruby sparks]

That doesn't change the fact that it doesn't count as assault if she either likes it or can be frightened into not calling the police about it and it undermines actual cases of assault if you try and lump all these instances of non-assault into the definition of the word.

In other words it's roughly (excuse pun) as assaulty as 'Baby Its Cold Outside' is rapey?

Well ... no. I mean, there is actually a reference to assault in the song, even though it's a consensual one, so there's a rational argument that a term like "assaulty" could be used to describe it. "Baby It's Cold Outside" is as rapey as "If You're Happy An You Know It". There's not any kind of legitimate comparison between the two songs.

Perhaps. I'm imagining that the female character in the what I'm calling assaulty song is not actually, at the time of being hit, saying, 'yes, I love that, ouch, more please' but rather at the time of the hitting, she's doing or saying the equivalent of a 'no, stop', but (as we see when she relates it in the song, after the event) doesn't really mean it. Which is where I'm thinking there's a parallel?

Possibly (I'm imagining) the hitting turns into hot sex.

Or to put it another way, imagine a song, or scene, to come after 'Baby it's cold outside' in which the same actress female actor sings about how he kinda forced her last night but really it added spice.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Yes, that completely different song would be rapey. The song under discussion is not, though.

 

[ruby sparks]

Yes, that completely different song would be rapey. The song under discussion is not, though.

Personally, I'm not averse to saying the OP song could be seen as being a little bit rapey.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Yes, that completely different song would be rapey. The song under discussion is not, though.

Personally, I'm not averse to saying the OP song could be seen as being a little bit rapey.

Well, I disagree and think that rape is a serious and important thing which shouldn’t be trivialized.

 

[ruby sparks]

Yes, that completely different song would be rapey. The song under discussion is not, though.

Personally, I'm not averse to saying the OP song could be seen as being a little bit rapey.

Well, I disagree and think that rape is a serious and important thing which shouldn’t be trivialized.

Sure. I don't think deconstructing the song/scene* trivialises rape. But we can agree to differ, obviously.

I think we would agree if we were talking about banning it or otherwise in some way over-reacting to it.



*I might even add that the song/scene is very ripe (not an accidental 'i instead of an a' typo) for such an analysis, imo.

 

[ruby sparks]

What—exactly—do you mean by the word “rapey” if not “of, or relating to (i.e., implying) rape”?

I left this to let zorq reply, but zorq hasn't been around, so......

What I think he means, and if I'm right I would in the end largely agree with him (while still thinking both you and he are partly right but possibly talking about slightly different things) is that the song/scene contains elements and themes which are..... let's say... suggestive of rape. For example, the man does not take her repeated noes for an answer, and in the film scene, repeatedly restrains here (albeit gently) from leaving.

I mean in the first scene here (though also in the second, with the roles reversed):



You don't have to tell me that the song or scene is not actually about actual rape. I already accept that.

Incidentally, does anyone know if both those scenes are from the same film ('Neptune's Daughter')?

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

I left this to let zorq reply

Then I'll wait for zorq's response.

I mean in the first scene here (though also in the second, with the roles reversed)

That's a movie. To break that down, we'd no longer be talking about the song or Frank Loesser's role in regard to it, but instead the director and/or producer(s) and why they decided to use it in the manner and context that they did in their film.

For what it's worth, the Wiki entrant notes that Baby, It's Cold Outside was not the original choice for the film. Loesser's Slow Boat To China was and if you read the lyrics, it's similarly themed--and has a similar structure, where one person says their internal monologue while the other responds--but was deemed too "inappropriate" by the Hays Office (aka, government censors). According to Esther Williams...

Famed "aqua musical" star Esther Williams discussed the early days of movie censorship during an appearance at a Carnegie Hall tribute to MGM musicals this week, recalling that censors refused to allow the Frank Loesser-penned "I'd Like to Get You on a Slow Boat to China" to be included in her movie, Neptune's Daughter (1949). As reported by New York Post columnist Neal Travis, "Ken Starr lookalikes" who vetted the film's material decided that "get" meant the F-word. Williams said that she replied that if that were so, "there'd be an awful lot of f---ing between here and China."

Interesting that they did not object to the more obvious subject matter in the song (kidnap).

Incidentally, does anyone know if both those scenes are from the same film ('Neptune's Daughter')?

They are. The Betty Garrat/Red Skelton version comes after the Esther Williams/Ricardo Montalban version.

 

[thebeave]

What—exactly—do you mean by the word “rapey” if not “of, or relating to (i.e., implying) rape”?

I left this to let zorq reply, but zorq hasn't been around, so......

What I think he means, and if I'm right I would in the end largely agree with him (while still thinking both you and he are partly right but possibly talking about slightly different things) is that the song/scene contains elements and themes which are..... let's say... suggestive of rape. For example, the man does not take her repeated noes for an answer, and in the film scene, repeatedly restrains here (albeit gently) from leaving.

I mean in the first scene here (though also in the second, with the roles reversed):



You don't have to tell me that the song or scene is not actually about actual rape. I already accept that.

Incidentally, does anyone know if both those scenes are from the same film ('Neptune's Daughter')?

Ricardo Montalban sure seems to have the power of persuasion with the ladies. He doesn't take No for an answer!

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKnttwx0P6I[/YOUTUBE]

 

[ruby sparks]

Ricardo Montalban sure seems to have the power of persuasion with the ladies. He doesn't take No for an answer!

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKnttwx0P6I[/YOUTUBE]

He was indeed enviably suave, sexy and skilled in the art of seduction. Damn, I wish I was Hispanic too.

 

[thebeave]

Ricardo Montalban sure seems to have the power of persuasion with the ladies. He doesn't take No for an answer!

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKnttwx0P6I[/YOUTUBE]

He was indeed enviably suave, sexy and skilled in the art of seduction. Damn, I wish I was Hispanic too.

I think it was all the rich Corinthian Leather that the ladies were really crazy about.

(Sorry, millenials...that's a joke that's long before your time)

 

[RavenSky]

JTFC. The woman in Baby It's Cold Outside is NOT saying "No" to sex. She literally explains why she is saying the answer is "no"...

SHE LITERALLY SAYS "THE ANSWER IS NO"

I really can't stay (Baby it's cold outside)
I gotta go away (Baby it's cold outside)
This evening has been (Been hoping that you'd dropped in)
So very nice (I'll hold your hands they're just like ice)
My mother will start to worry (Beautiful what's your hurry?)
My father will be pacing the floor (Listen to the fireplace roar)
So really I'd better scurry (Beautiful please don't hurry)
Well maybe just a half a drink more (I'll put some records on while I pour)
The neighbors might think (Baby it's bad out there)
Say what's in this drink? (No cabs to be had out there)
I wish I knew how (Your eyes are like starlight now)
To break this spell (I'll take your hat, your hair looks swell) (Why thank you)
I ought to say no, no, no sir (Mind if move in closer?)
At least I'm gonna say that I tried (What's the sense of hurtin' my pride?)
I really can't stay (Baby don't hold out)
Baby it's cold outside
Ah, you're very pushy you know?
I like to think of it as opportunistic
I simply must go (Baby it's cold outside)
The answer is no (But baby it's cold outside)
The welcome has been (How lucky that you dropped in)
So nice and warm (Look out the window at that storm)
My sister will be suspicious (Gosh your lips look delicious!)
My brother will be there at the door (Waves upon a tropical shore)
My maiden aunt's mind is vicious (Gosh your lips are delicious!)
Well maybe just a cigarette more (Never such a blizzard before) (And I don't even smoke)
I've got to get home (Baby you'll freeze out there)
Say lend me a coat? (It's up to your knees out there!)
You've really been grand, (I feel when I touch your hand)
But don't you see? (How can you do this thing to me?)
There's bound to be talk tomorrow (Think of my life long sorrow!)
At least there will be plenty implied (If you caught pneumonia and died!)
I really can't stay (Get over that old out)
Baby it's cold
Baby it's cold outside
Okay fine, just another drink then
That took a lot of convincing!

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

In my question I thought I made it clear that there was no force, threat of force, coercion, drugs, etc. All he used was persuasion. Eventually she said "yes".

That's not what this particular songs says. What song are you talking about?

I'm not talking about a song, but a general principle.

Cut the song out if that makes it easier to consider, and just consider this one point.

First she says no, then he persuades her, then she finally says yes. He did not use force, threat of force, coercion, drugs, etc.

Is that situation rapey?

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

JTFC. The woman in Baby It's Cold Outside is NOT saying "No" to sex. She literally explains why she is saying the answer is "no"...

SHE LITERALLY SAYS "THE ANSWER IS NO"

The “answer” to what question? What rapist asks if they can rape you?

She isn’t saying no to unwanted sex.

I really can't stay (Baby it's cold outside)
I gotta go away (Baby it's cold outside)
This evening has been (Been hoping that you'd dropped in)
So very nice (I'll hold your hands they're just like ice)
My mother will start to worry (Beautiful what's your hurry?)
My father will be pacing the floor (Listen to the fireplace roar)
So really I'd better scurry (Beautiful please don't hurry)
Well maybe just a half a drink more (I'll put some records on while I pour)
The neighbors might think (Baby it's bad out there)
Say what's in this drink? (No cabs to be had out there)
I wish I knew how (Your eyes are like starlight now)
To break this spell (I'll take your hat, your hair looks swell) (Why thank you)
I ought to say no, no, no sir (Mind if move in closer?)
At least I'm gonna say that I tried (What's the sense of hurtin' my pride?)
I really can't stay (Baby don't hold out)
Baby it's cold outside

Why does she first say to herself “I ought to say no, no, no sir”? What is the “ought” for? Why does she say, “At least I’m going to say that I tried”? And then a few thoughts later, what does she do? She says “no” and then says she’s going to leave and then also immediately says she’ll stay again for just a cigarette more.

She is in control the whole time and is debating with herself how to socially justify doing what she wants to do with this man. She talks about her mom, dad, brother, sister, vicious minded maiden aunt, neighbors and what THEY will all think of her if she stayed throughout the song. The very last reference is:

There's bound to be talk tomorrow. At least there will be plenty implied.

Why does she mention ANY of that if this is about her being forced into unwanted sex?

 

[starwater]

The man in the story should have taken her home and made sure she got there safely.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

The man in the story should have taken her home and made sure she got there safely.

That's some misandryst bullshit right there. It was cold outside, FFS. Why should he be forced out of his nice, warm apartment?

 

[starwater]

The man in the story should have taken her home and made sure she got there safely.

That's some misandryst bullshit right there. It was cold outside, FFS. Why should he be forced out of his nice, warm apartment?

Because it was the 1940s and she was in high heels and a dress - not appropriate wear for going out in icy storm, I was thinking of the scenario from the 1940s.

Today she could have gotten herself home no problem.

I agree with you - I should have been more explicit, and now my statement is very inappropriate - my bad.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

"I really can't stay (Baby don't hold out)"

What is she holding out?

 

[repoman]

The man in the story should have taken her home and made sure she got there safely.

That's some misandryst bullshit right there. It was cold outside, FFS. Why should he be forced out of his nice, warm apartment?

And walk twice as far

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Ah, you're very pushy you know?
I like to think of it as opportunistic

What do you think of these lines?

 

[RavenSky]

In my question I thought I made it clear that there was no force, threat of force, coercion, drugs, etc. All he used was persuasion. Eventually she said "yes".

That's not what this particular songs says. What song are you talking about?

I'm not talking about a song, but a general principle.

Cut the song out if that makes it easier to consider, and just consider this one point.

First she says no, then he persuades her, then she finally says yes. He did not use force, threat of force, coercion, drugs, etc.

Is that situation rapey?

When she says "no", he needs to walk away. Period.

Yes, it is "a little bit rapey*" to "persuade" a woman to have sex with you. I don't even understand why anyone would WANT to have sex with someone who must be "persuaded" into it.

* NOT "rape", NOT "sexual assault"... just inappropriate

- - - Updated - - -

The “answer” to what question? What rapist asks if they can rape you?

She isn’t saying no to unwanted sex.

Yes she is.

Do you want to have sex.

No.

End of "persuasion"

"I really can't stay (Baby don't hold out)"

What is she holding out?

and that ^^^^

Ah, you're very pushy you know?
I like to think of it as opportunistic

What do you think of these lines?

and that ^^^^

- - - Updated - - -

The man in the story should have taken her home and made sure she got there safely.

exactly.

- - - Updated - - -

The man in the story should have taken her home and made sure she got there safely.

That's some misandryst bullshit right there. It was cold outside, FFS. Why should he be forced out of his nice, warm apartment?

You have a point