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Artemis launch

I recall reading Ayn Rand’s massive potboiler novel Atlas Shrugged which was really terrible (her first novel The Fountainhead was good). One of the protagonists was an extremely competent woman (this part is good, a woman, yay!) who ran a railroad empire. Her brother was a timid, gibbering little simp. The point is, however, that this woman inherited the railroad empire from a 19th-century ancestor. How did the ancestor go about building this railroad empire?

With his own two bare hands!

Yessiree, the novel tells us he was a penniless drifter who climbed out of some swamp somewhere and with his own two hands erected a railroad empire, with no help from anyone or anything! (The reader is never informed HOW he accomplished this miracle.) At one point in the novel he even throws some nosy government agent down a flight of stairs. Throwing someone down a flight of stairs also occurs in The Fountainhead. I guess we can be grateful at least that Rand was not into depicting defenestration, though maybe stair-throwing was one of her sexual kinks, like, as I have read, wearing a mink coat and smoking a cigarette while getting screwed.

This was all in keeping with Rand’s bizarre idea that government is always the enemy and the only productive people in life are, I guess, those who climb penniless out of swamps to erect with their own two bare hands by themselves railroad empires and throw people down the stairs who annoy them. This notion did not stop her, however, from praising the Apollo moon landings. Guess she didn’t notice that these landings were not private enterprises.

I might add she was also a heavy smoker who smoked because held the ideological belief (!) that smoking represented man’s triumph over fire (!). Unfortunately she got diagnosed with lung cancer and croaked, though not before availing herself of the Social Security and Medicare benefits she allegedly despised and constantly railed against.

In reality, of course, the 19th-century railroads were erected with enormous government subsidies including loans and land grants. This was Keynesianism before Keynes. No penniless drifter ever crawled out of a swamp to build any of them.

But these subsidies were productive investments. They knit the country together and produced an enormous post-war economic boom.

Would the same be true for government subsidies to build moon bases? The western U.S., which the transcontinental railroads opened, were enormously profitable which is why the subsidies were wise. The moon is barren and dead. How would bases support themselves? How would they grow food? Mining might turn a profit long-term but not short-term. It seems that for a period of many years, such bases would have to be subsidized by enormous government investments without any promise of a decent return. Then, of course, there is the issue of enormous human risk.

I also admit to having some qualms about despoiling a largely pristine environment that carries the marks, like fossils, of billions of years of history. Perhaps the moon should be treated like a national park (even though it belongs to no nation by treaty, a treaty which alas will likely eventually be violated by either China or the U.S. or both).

As it happens I fear that what will really transpire, if we do get moon bases, is that both China and the U.S. will use them for military purposes. Let’s bring war to outer space!
The thing that made mining and farming in the West into a profitable enterprise was transportation. The railways enabled these businesses.

The Moon doubtless has vast mineral wealth. But to profit from it requires transportation infrastructure.
Doubtlessly most of this can be automated, in such a manner than relatively small devices can be flung into space and back to Earth... in a couple hundred of years. As you'll already know and state, the issue with infrastructure on the Moon is needing to get the base components up there in the first place, unless they can repurpose the dust into a viable 3d printing material.

Money on the moon is so far in to the future, if ever! The worst possible threat to the moon? The technological advances to make the Moon profitable, makes doing things on Earth even more profitable.
A moon base could be a part of that, if it can make rocket fuel locally, but the lunar gravity well is frankly trivial; What we need to make space even vaguely profitable is to build infrastructure to get out of Earth's gravity well cheaply. We need a space elevator.
One thing I've never understood about a space elevator was the foundation. I'll temporarily allow people to think that nanotubes are strong enough to allow a cantilever force of gargantuan proportions as well thermal expansions / contractions, weather, wayward ducks, but how does that force get managed by the earth, where the foundations are?
 
Seems like I deleted the NASA link without revealing is without editing

Do a search.
 
I recall reading Ayn Rand’s massive potboiler novel Atlas Shrugged which was really terrible (her first novel The Fountainhead was good). One of the protagonists was an extremely competent woman (this part is good, a woman, yay!) who ran a railroad empire. Her brother was a timid, gibbering little simp. The point is, however, that this woman inherited the railroad empire from a 19th-century ancestor. How did the ancestor go about building this railroad empire?

With his own two bare hands!

Yessiree, the novel tells us he was a penniless drifter who climbed out of some swamp somewhere and with his own two hands erected a railroad empire, with no help from anyone or anything! (The reader is never informed HOW he accomplished this miracle.) At one point in the novel he even throws some nosy government agent down a flight of stairs. Throwing someone down a flight of stairs also occurs in The Fountainhead. I guess we can be grateful at least that Rand was not into depicting defenestration, though maybe stair-throwing was one of her sexual kinks, like, as I have read, wearing a mink coat and smoking a cigarette while getting screwed.

This was all in keeping with Rand’s bizarre idea that government is always the enemy and the only productive people in life are, I guess, those who climb penniless out of swamps to erect with their own two bare hands by themselves railroad empires and throw people down the stairs who annoy them. This notion did not stop her, however, from praising the Apollo moon landings. Guess she didn’t notice that these landings were not private enterprises.

I might add she was also a heavy smoker who smoked because held the ideological belief (!) that smoking represented man’s triumph over fire (!). Unfortunately she got diagnosed with lung cancer and croaked, though not before availing herself of the Social Security and Medicare benefits she allegedly despised and constantly railed against.

In reality, of course, the 19th-century railroads were erected with enormous government subsidies including loans and land grants. This was Keynesianism before Keynes. No penniless drifter ever crawled out of a swamp to build any of them.

But these subsidies were productive investments. They knit the country together and produced an enormous post-war economic boom.

Would the same be true for government subsidies to build moon bases? The western U.S., which the transcontinental railroads opened, were enormously profitable which is why the subsidies were wise. The moon is barren and dead. How would bases support themselves? How would they grow food? Mining might turn a profit long-term but not short-term. It seems that for a period of many years, such bases would have to be subsidized by enormous government investments without any promise of a decent return. Then, of course, there is the issue of enormous human risk.

I also admit to having some qualms about despoiling a largely pristine environment that carries the marks, like fossils, of billions of years of history. Perhaps the moon should be treated like a national park (even though it belongs to no nation by treaty, a treaty which alas will likely eventually be violated by either China or the U.S. or both).

As it happens I fear that what will really transpire, if we do get moon bases, is that both China and the U.S. will use them for military purposes. Let’s bring war to outer space!
The thing that made mining and farming in the West into a profitable enterprise was transportation. The railways enabled these businesses.

The Moon doubtless has vast mineral wealth. But to profit from it requires transportation infrastructure.
Doubtlessly most of this can be automated, in such a manner than relatively small devices can be flung into space and back to Earth... in a couple hundred of years. As you'll already know and state, the issue with infrastructure on the Moon is needing to get the base components up there in the first place, unless they can repurpose the dust into a viable 3d printing material.

Money on the moon is so far in to the future, if ever! The worst possible threat to the moon? The technological advances to make the Moon profitable, makes doing things on Earth even more profitable.
A moon base could be a part of that, if it can make rocket fuel locally, but the lunar gravity well is frankly trivial; What we need to make space even vaguely profitable is to build infrastructure to get out of Earth's gravity well cheaply. We need a space elevator.
One thing I've never understood about a space elevator was the foundation. I'll temporarily allow people to think that nanotubes are strong enough to allow a cantilever force of gargantuan proportions as well thermal expansions / contractions, weather, wayward ducks, but how does that force get managed by the earth, where the foundations are?
What I remember is that NASA was not so much interested in the space elevator , they waned the carbon nanotubes developed.

The funding usually goes in three stages. Phase 1 concept, phase 2 proof of concept, phase 3 production.

The list used to be online, NASA and other agencies put out RFQs, request for quotes.

I'd have to look trough the history, the guy got phase 1 funding and after problems it was handed over to a company.

Teorgnal paper sould be online somewhere/
 
I wonder sometimes if an active propulsion space elevator would be possible, or a boyancy supported space elevator would be possible, or some admixture.

Like, we can't just have a cable because the top of the cable can't support the bottom and the bottom of the cable can't support the top, but if the cable itself carries energy (and many of the carbon structures proposed for the material base are good conductors), the cable itself can be powered by stations at both ends and supported with electric motors and rotors, and even the gravitational shear forces themselves could be used for part of the energy needed to hold it up.

To me, the bigger issue comes in that there's going to be a fuck ton of atmosphere being moved to support so much material, and that in and of itself creates issues, as the downdraft may very well make the environment around the cable "problematic".

ETA: or would the electron pressure in the carbon structure itself cause mechanical instabilities?
 
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To me, the bigger issue comes in that there's going to be a fuck ton of atmosphere being moved to support so much material, and that in and of itself creates issues, as the downdraft may very well make the environment around the cable "problematic".
Nothing that can’t be solved with an evacuated 2-300 mile high airtight caisson to contain the cable 😆
 
I recall reading Ayn Rand’s massive potboiler novel Atlas Shrugged which was really terrible (her first novel The Fountainhead was good). One of the protagonists was an extremely competent woman (this part is good, a woman, yay!) who ran a railroad empire. Her brother was a timid, gibbering little simp. The point is, however, that this woman inherited the railroad empire from a 19th-century ancestor. How did the ancestor go about building this railroad empire?

With his own two bare hands!

Yessiree, the novel tells us he was a penniless drifter who climbed out of some swamp somewhere and with his own two hands erected a railroad empire, with no help from anyone or anything! (The reader is never informed HOW he accomplished this miracle.) At one point in the novel he even throws some nosy government agent down a flight of stairs. Throwing someone down a flight of stairs also occurs in The Fountainhead. I guess we can be grateful at least that Rand was not into depicting defenestration, though maybe stair-throwing was one of her sexual kinks, like, as I have read, wearing a mink coat and smoking a cigarette while getting screwed.

This was all in keeping with Rand’s bizarre idea that government is always the enemy and the only productive people in life are, I guess, those who climb penniless out of swamps to erect with their own two bare hands by themselves railroad empires and throw people down the stairs who annoy them. This notion did not stop her, however, from praising the Apollo moon landings. Guess she didn’t notice that these landings were not private enterprises.

I might add she was also a heavy smoker who smoked because held the ideological belief (!) that smoking represented man’s triumph over fire (!). Unfortunately she got diagnosed with lung cancer and croaked, though not before availing herself of the Social Security and Medicare benefits she allegedly despised and constantly railed against.

In reality, of course, the 19th-century railroads were erected with enormous government subsidies including loans and land grants. This was Keynesianism before Keynes. No penniless drifter ever crawled out of a swamp to build any of them.

But these subsidies were productive investments. They knit the country together and produced an enormous post-war economic boom.

Would the same be true for government subsidies to build moon bases? The western U.S., which the transcontinental railroads opened, were enormously profitable which is why the subsidies were wise. The moon is barren and dead. How would bases support themselves? How would they grow food? Mining might turn a profit long-term but not short-term. It seems that for a period of many years, such bases would have to be subsidized by enormous government investments without any promise of a decent return. Then, of course, there is the issue of enormous human risk.

I also admit to having some qualms about despoiling a largely pristine environment that carries the marks, like fossils, of billions of years of history. Perhaps the moon should be treated like a national park (even though it belongs to no nation by treaty, a treaty which alas will likely eventually be violated by either China or the U.S. or both).

As it happens I fear that what will really transpire, if we do get moon bases, is that both China and the U.S. will use them for military purposes. Let’s bring war to outer space!
The thing that made mining and farming in the West into a profitable enterprise was transportation. The railways enabled these businesses.

The Moon doubtless has vast mineral wealth. But to profit from it requires transportation infrastructure.
Doubtlessly most of this can be automated, in such a manner than relatively small devices can be flung into space and back to Earth... in a couple hundred of years. As you'll already know and state, the issue with infrastructure on the Moon is needing to get the base components up there in the first place, unless they can repurpose the dust into a viable 3d printing material.

Money on the moon is so far in to the future, if ever! The worst possible threat to the moon? The technological advances to make the Moon profitable, makes doing things on Earth even more profitable.
A moon base could be a part of that, if it can make rocket fuel locally, but the lunar gravity well is frankly trivial; What we need to make space even vaguely profitable is to build infrastructure to get out of Earth's gravity well cheaply. We need a space elevator.
One thing I've never understood about a space elevator was the foundation. I'll temporarily allow people to think that nanotubes are strong enough to allow a cantilever force of gargantuan proportions as well thermal expansions / contractions, weather, wayward ducks, but how does that force get managed by the earth, where the foundations are?
Same way trees do it - deep roots, lots of buttressing. Spread the load over a relatively large volume of crust.

IMG_3506.jpeg
You can make the foundation/anchor using conventional earthbound construction techniques and materials. That's the one part that needn't be launched into orbit.
 
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I recall reading Ayn Rand’s massive potboiler novel Atlas Shrugged which was really terrible (her first novel The Fountainhead was good). One of the protagonists was an extremely competent woman (this part is good, a woman, yay!) who ran a railroad empire. Her brother was a timid, gibbering little simp. The point is, however, that this woman inherited the railroad empire from a 19th-century ancestor. How did the ancestor go about building this railroad empire?

With his own two bare hands!

Yessiree, the novel tells us he was a penniless drifter who climbed out of some swamp somewhere and with his own two hands erected a railroad empire, with no help from anyone or anything! (The reader is never informed HOW he accomplished this miracle.) At one point in the novel he even throws some nosy government agent down a flight of stairs. Throwing someone down a flight of stairs also occurs in The Fountainhead. I guess we can be grateful at least that Rand was not into depicting defenestration, though maybe stair-throwing was one of her sexual kinks, like, as I have read, wearing a mink coat and smoking a cigarette while getting screwed.

This was all in keeping with Rand’s bizarre idea that government is always the enemy and the only productive people in life are, I guess, those who climb penniless out of swamps to erect with their own two bare hands by themselves railroad empires and throw people down the stairs who annoy them. This notion did not stop her, however, from praising the Apollo moon landings. Guess she didn’t notice that these landings were not private enterprises.

I might add she was also a heavy smoker who smoked because held the ideological belief (!) that smoking represented man’s triumph over fire (!). Unfortunately she got diagnosed with lung cancer and croaked, though not before availing herself of the Social Security and Medicare benefits she allegedly despised and constantly railed against.

In reality, of course, the 19th-century railroads were erected with enormous government subsidies including loans and land grants. This was Keynesianism before Keynes. No penniless drifter ever crawled out of a swamp to build any of them.

But these subsidies were productive investments. They knit the country together and produced an enormous post-war economic boom.

Would the same be true for government subsidies to build moon bases? The western U.S., which the transcontinental railroads opened, were enormously profitable which is why the subsidies were wise. The moon is barren and dead. How would bases support themselves? How would they grow food? Mining might turn a profit long-term but not short-term. It seems that for a period of many years, such bases would have to be subsidized by enormous government investments without any promise of a decent return. Then, of course, there is the issue of enormous human risk.

I also admit to having some qualms about despoiling a largely pristine environment that carries the marks, like fossils, of billions of years of history. Perhaps the moon should be treated like a national park (even though it belongs to no nation by treaty, a treaty which alas will likely eventually be violated by either China or the U.S. or both).

As it happens I fear that what will really transpire, if we do get moon bases, is that both China and the U.S. will use them for military purposes. Let’s bring war to outer space!
The thing that made mining and farming in the West into a profitable enterprise was transportation. The railways enabled these businesses.

The Moon doubtless has vast mineral wealth. But to profit from it requires transportation infrastructure.
Doubtlessly most of this can be automated, in such a manner than relatively small devices can be flung into space and back to Earth... in a couple hundred of years. As you'll already know and state, the issue with infrastructure on the Moon is needing to get the base components up there in the first place, unless they can repurpose the dust into a viable 3d printing material.

Money on the moon is so far in to the future, if ever! The worst possible threat to the moon? The technological advances to make the Moon profitable, makes doing things on Earth even more profitable.
A moon base could be a part of that, if it can make rocket fuel locally, but the lunar gravity well is frankly trivial; What we need to make space even vaguely profitable is to build infrastructure to get out of Earth's gravity well cheaply. We need a space elevator.
One thing I've never understood about a space elevator was the foundation. I'll temporarily allow people to think that nanotubes are strong enough to allow a cantilever force of gargantuan proportions as well thermal expansions / contractions, weather, wayward ducks, but how does that force get managed by the earth, where the foundations are?
Same way trees do it - deep roots, lots of buttressing. Spread the load over a relatively large volume of crust.

View attachment 53999
You can make the foundation/anchor using conventional earthbound construction techniques and materials. That's the one part that needn't be launched into orbit.
But can you? I mean sure, trees can get pretty tall, but not a mile tall. When talking about the sheer scale, you are engaging a lot of fractured rock.

Forget about the bearing mass.
 
But can you? I mean sure, trees can get pretty tall, but not a mile tall.
The anchor only needs to be tall enough to communicate the tension to the bottom of the cable proper, from whatever area of bedrock you decide you need to attach to.
When talking about the sheer scale, you are engaging a lot of fractured rock.
Given the scale of the project, there's no need to engage fractured rock at all. Clearing the overburden down to bedrock is existing tech, albeit on a fairly large scale.
 
But can you? I mean sure, trees can get pretty tall, but not a mile tall.
The anchor only needs to be tall enough to communicate the tension to the bottom of the cable proper, from whatever area of bedrock you decide you need to attach to.
When talking about the sheer scale, you are engaging a lot of fractured rock.
Given the scale of the project, there's no need to engage fractured rock at all. Clearing the overburden down to bedrock is existing tech, albeit on a fairly large scale.
The bedrock is a problem. It isn't intact enough for these sorts of stresses. It will move along existing fracture planes, not faults but along the countless fractures within the formations, forget about formation contacts.

And the anchor is only as strong as the weakest material to create it.
 
But can you? I mean sure, trees can get pretty tall, but not a mile tall.
The anchor only needs to be tall enough to communicate the tension to the bottom of the cable proper, from whatever area of bedrock you decide you need to attach to.
When talking about the sheer scale, you are engaging a lot of fractured rock.
Given the scale of the project, there's no need to engage fractured rock at all. Clearing the overburden down to bedrock is existing tech, albeit on a fairly large scale.
The bedrock is a problem. It isn't intact enough for these sorts of stresses. It will move along existing fracture planes, not faults but along the countless fractures within the formations, forget about formation contacts.

And the anchor is only as strong as the weakest material to create it.
How much load are you envisaging here? The cable itself needs massive tensile strength, not because the absolute loads are big, but because the cable is inevitably relatively small in cross-sectional area.

Surely the minimum load needs only to be sufficient to keep the cable taut against atmospheric drag etc.; The maximum load is that, plus the additional loading due to the mass of material in transit at any given time, which can be (and must be) kept below the SWL for the entire system.
 
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