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Are words immaterial?

Words convey information and energy. Words are conduits for motion and emotion. Words have power in that they can affect us, positively or negatively. For those reasons, I would not discount words as 'immaterial' even though their exact nature may elude description in simple terms.
I can use words to describe the word "word": the word "word" is spelt w-o-r-d.
Now, that wasn't so difficult!
EB
 
You can then go one of two directions. Either acknowledge that shared concepts are not physical (material) objects
A third alternative there is: there are no shared concepts.
EB
 
Words convey information and energy. Words are conduits for motion and emotion. Words have power in that they can affect us, positively or negatively. For those reasons, I would not discount words as 'immaterial' even though their exact nature may elude description in simple terms.
I can use words to describe the word "word": the word "word" is spelt w-o-r-d.
Now, that wasn't so difficult!
EB

A circular equation, to use a concept to self-define. In the process, energy is expended, so words, by some means, interact with energy. :grin:
 
You can then go one of two directions. Either acknowledge that shared concepts are not physical (material) objects
A third alternative there is: there are no shared concepts.
EB

Every concept and perception of that concept are unique, therefore, you are correct. We can only share aspects of a concept where our experiences or comprehension (theory) overlap.

The actual experience and utility of any concept remains unique to the user, often very similar to that of another, but never precisely the same for the simple observation that no two objects can occupy the same space at the same time.
 
Words are immaterial. Actions alone are true.







(This is the only case where I agree that "words are immaterial". You need the heart of a poet to get to the meaning.)
 
I am not sure how to answer this one.
I am puzzled, maybe somebody else here has an idea on how to answer this in the negative..
Are words immaterial?
I'd say words are recorded in the brain and are nothing more than electro-chemical processes.

What is "immaterial"? You have to explain what "immaterial" is supposed to mean.
 
You can then go one of two directions. Either acknowledge that shared concepts are not physical (material) objects
A third alternative there is: there are no shared concepts.
EB

Then how can I know what you mean?

Your location says Paris, mine says London. Do we know what is meant by these labels or not? If so, they are not just unique sense-experiences, they have some kind of significance or meaning, and it's shared enough to communicate. If it's not shared, how do you get communication?
 
Are you serious man? Are you saying that you don't know if words written on paper are material?
EB

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I am puzzled, maybe somebody else here has an idea on how to answer this in the negative..
Are words immaterial?
No.
Even one word is material evidence.
EB

- - - Updated - - -

I am not sure how to answer this one.
I am puzzled, maybe somebody else here has an idea on how to answer this in the negative..
Are words immaterial?
I'd say words are recorded in the brain and are nothing more than electro-chemical processes.
Words are immaterial.
Any material evidence?
EB
I would use a calculator to add numbers, and I'd use a screwdriver to pry open a paint can. We should use the appropriate tools. Why look for material evidence for the existence of immaterial objects?
 
Words convey information and energy. Words are conduits for motion and emotion. Words have power in that they can affect us, positively or negatively. For those reasons, I would not discount words as 'immaterial' even though their exact nature may elude description in simple terms.
I can use words to describe the word "word": the word "word" is spelt w-o-r-d.
Now, that wasn't so difficult!
EB
Correct!

That brings up the use/mention distinction. To say cats purr is to use the word, "cat," but to say the word, "cat" has three letters in it is to mention the word, "cat".
 
Which is why they are integral parts of science and society. Non-interaction. :D
Being an integral part and being interactive are not one and the same

So it can be a part and not interact with any other part. Fascinating. Please explain how they are integral parts of society and yet not interact with it.
 
If it's not shared, how do you get communication?
What is shared are the world around us and our capability of language. (Identifying symbols in information streams, grammar etc)
 
I can use words to describe the word "word": the word "word" is spelt w-o-r-d.
Now, that wasn't so difficult!
EB

A circular equation, to use a concept to self-define. In the process, energy is expended, so words, by some means, interact with energy. :grin:
I guess I just realised that my point was the following: We have no problem understanding this sentence, "The word "word" is spelt w-o-r-d", yet this is just letters and words. There is an apparent self-reference and some characters clearly play a critical role. But, the meaning does come from within us because if I don't speak English I won't understand the sentence at all. Because different English speakers can only understand the sentence on their own terms simply because we don't actually know what is in other people's mind. All we have are those words and they always come on some material support, be it the Obélix of the Place de la Concorde in Paris, papyrus, or sound waves.
EB
 
A third alternative there is: there are no shared concepts.
EB

Every concept and perception of that concept are unique, therefore, you are correct. We can only share aspects of a concept where our experiences or comprehension (theory) overlap.

The actual experience and utility of any concept remains unique to the user, often very similar to that of another, but never precisely the same for the simple observation that no two objects can occupy the same space at the same time.
Yes, exactly. :)

And why would I need to share the concepts I have in my mind? Each of us may have a numbers of concepts that nobody else knows about. I certainly do. Where would be the necessary sharing? Why would some concepts be privately hold inside my mind but other would have to be shared?

We can exchange words to try and convey what we means and we expect other people to understand the concepts we explain. Maybe it works, maybe it does not. But according to this view we don't need to assume that somewhere not our minds are concepts pretty much living a life of their own somewhat like celestial bodies and tornadoes do.

And I still haven't seen any good explanation of why concepts should be anything but ideas inside our minds (make it neuronal processes inside our brains if you want to be materialistic about it).
EB
 
Words are immaterial. Actions alone are true.







(This is the only case where I agree that "words are immaterial". You need the heart of a poet to get to the meaning.)
Yet I'm not sure many poets would want to agree that words are immaterial!

I guess they would argue that words are not immaterial because they are immaterial.
EB
 
If it's not shared, how do you get communication?
What is shared are the world around us and our capability of language. (Identifying symbols in information streams, grammar etc)

Ok, so we speak the same language, and we live in the same world, but there is no possibility of the concept in my head being understood by you. How do we communicate under those conditions? Can you give an example?

There needs to be some sharing of concepts, some common understanding, for any form of communication.

Every concept and perception of that concept are unique, therefore, you are correct. We can only share aspects of a concept where our experiences or comprehension (theory) overlap.

The actual experience and utility of any concept remains unique to the user, often very similar to that of another, but never precisely the same for the simple observation that no two objects can occupy the same space at the same time.
Yes, exactly. :)

And why would I need to share the concepts I have in my mind?

To communicate them to others.

The statement 'And why would I need to share the concepts I have in my mind' is intended to convey some kind of meaning. The meaning is something akin to what you were trying to convey at the time of writing. The meaning I pick up won't be exactly the same, but it has to be enough for me to get some idea of your meaning, or the while exercise is pointless. So every instance of communication involves one person sharing concepts with another person.

We can exchange words to try and convey what we means and we expect other people to understand the concepts we explain. Maybe it works, maybe it does not. But according to this view we don't need to assume that somewhere not our minds are concepts pretty much living a life of their own somewhat like celestial bodies and tornadoes do.

Not like expressions of physical forces, no, but they do need to be independent of the mind that created them. We can still discuss Newtonian mechanics, even though Newton is dead. If there is an idea that was in his head, that is now (in some related form) in mine, then it must have been moved, or transmitted or shared in some way.

If, as you suggested earlier, there is no shared concept, then we have a number of consequences from that. It becomes meaningless to say that a version of Newtonian mechanics is 'correct' or 'incorrect', it becomes meaningless to say that something is 'accurate' or 'inaccurate', and it becomes meaningless to say that Newtonian mechanics are 'useful' or not 'useful' or even that they have certain mechanical properties. Because anything even loosely inspired by the original writings of Newton is equally Newtonian Mechanics, from the one where the guy simply copied down the formula wrong, to the guy who gave up halfway through and starting doodling ninja hamsters on the side of the page. If there is no shared concept, then what separates an accurate rendition of Newtonian mechanics from doodles of ninja hamsters?

And I still haven't seen any good explanation of why concepts should be anything but ideas inside our minds (make it neuronal processes inside our brains if you want to be materialistic about it).EB

Because concepts get out and spread to other people, while neuronal processes (or indeed words on paper) don't.
 
What is shared are the world around us and our capability of language. (Identifying symbols in information streams, grammar etc)

Ok, so we speak the same language, and we live in the same world, but there is no possibility of the concept in my head being understood by you. How do we communicate under those conditions? Can you give an example?

There needs to be some sharing of concepts, some common understanding, for any form of communication.
hile exercise is pointless. So every instance of communication involves one person sharing concepts with another person.

then this boils down to what "share a concept" means.

We share concepts in the very loose sense that I want my concepts to be similar to your concepts. And I can agree that if my concept is similar enough (in some sense) then they "shared".
 
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