Another mass shooting - largest in a good while, by a few victims

[Jimmy Higgins]

Umm... isn't that like.... umm... what we are going for?

Yeah, you're going for your objective with no regard for the cost

Well, I'm seeing a cost of dozen dead a year in mass shootings. .

Just look at Australia--graph the murder rate before and after, you can't see the point where they did their big gun ban.

The thing is you are focusing on guns. I don't care, I'm looking at dead innocents regardless of method.

Well that seems really fucking stupid. Wait... make that extraordinarily fucking stupid. Method doesn't matter? I don't believe in seat belt laws. How a person dies is irrelevant.

The thing is you are refusing to see that there's a downside to a gun ban. The self-defense cases vastly outnumber the mass shootings and you're going to throw those out in your quest to disarm the nuts. (And don't be sure that disarming the nuts has that much benefit, anyway--he probably would have been more effective had he rented a U-haul and loaded it to maximum weight

.)
Well, it'd be pretty hard to get that up into the hotel room, and the top velocity of the truck would be slow, but admittedly, the impact at the bottom would still cause damage. [

You may feel better by saving that shooting victim but if it comes at the cost of a couple of people stabbed to death it's not worth it.

It'd been harder to kill and harm those people throwing a box of knives out the window at that hotel. I mean yeah, people would have been hurt, but... probably not quite as bad.

I meant at the cost of a couple of people stabbed by knife-wielding assailants they couldn't defend against. I'm looking at the big picture, not just the shootings.

You are looking at your ridiculous hypotheticals and taking them too seriously as usual. But hey, 5 dozen adults here, 2 dozen children there, as long as you are satisfied that it is acceptable fodder, who are we to judge?

 

[sharon45]

Is my freedom to own a semi-auto combat rifle more important than all of the lives of those people in Vegas combined? Of course not. It's not worth a single goddamn injury. And I'd give that rifle up in a minute if the law called for it because I really do believe in that whole silly "common good" thing. My desire to have fun at the range with my muthafukkin Ay-kay yo, is outweighed by the overall needs and rights of society.

The argument is always that the criminals are still going to be able to get guns.

 

[RavenSky]

"Reality" is not the same thing as whatever opinion you pulled from your ass. In EVERY video from the scene, the sounds of the gunshots are very audible - so much so that even you - Mr. Self-Appointed Expert of Everything - claimed he couldn't possibly have had a fully-automatic gun because the spacing between shots wasn't perfectly even.

It may have taken people a few seconds to realize the sounds they heard were gunshots and not fireworks, but the fact they could hear the sounds allowed them to react quicker than if people simply started dropping and bleeding with no discernable reason.

It's apparent you aren't paying attention to the actual evidence.

1) The people being shot at didn't realize it until they started noticing the hits. The shots were drowned out by the music.

Apparently YOU are not paying attention. Witnesses DID hear the gunshots. They just didn't know what it was at first. Quite a few thought is was fireworks.

2) Check what the police are saying. A whole bunch of rifles with bumpfire stocks. No mentions of any full auto weapons.

You ignored my point.

 

[bilby]

Is my freedom to own a semi-auto combat rifle more important than all of the lives of those people in Vegas combined? Of course not. It's not worth a single goddamn injury. And I'd give that rifle up in a minute if the law called for it because I really do believe in that whole silly "common good" thing. My desire to have fun at the range with my muthafukkin Ay-kay yo, is outweighed by the overall needs and rights of society.

The argument is always that the criminals are still going to be able to get guns.

That's as good an argument against gun control as is "The thieves will always be able to break in" is an argument against locking your front door.

Just because criminals will try to commit crime, that's no reason to make it as easy as possible for them.

 

[laughing dog]

I know for a fact it is very easy. It only takes the tools and a little experience.

If this is your argument you have none.

The more semi-automatics in society = the more automatics.

This cannot be denied.

I deny it on the grounds that the majority of Americans aren't gunsmiths. Majoring in Minority Studies didn't give you the knowledge after all.

If one person knows how to convert a semi-automatic weapon into an automatic weapon, then it more semi-automatics will mean more automatics. It is an empirical question as to how many people have this ability, but it is rather unreasonable and illogical to deny that more semi-automatics will not mean more automatic firearms.

 

[RavenSky]

The argument is always that the criminals are still going to be able to get guns.

That's as good an argument against gun control as is "The thieves will always be able to break in" is an argument against locking your front door.

Just because criminals will try to commit crime, that's no reason to make it as easy as possible for them.

That argument also ignores the fact that these mass shootings aren't generally committed by "criminals".

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I deny it on the grounds that the majority of Americans aren't gunsmiths. Majoring in Minority Studies didn't give you the knowledge after all.

If one person knows how to convert a semi-automatic weapon into an automatic weapon, then it more semi-automatics will mean more automatics. It is an empirical question as to how many people have this ability, but it is rather unreasonable and illogical to deny that more semi-automatics will not mean more automatic firearms.

If you trace back up this back and forth far enough, you'll see me denying that there is a great abundance of fully automatics because of how absurdly easy it is to do the conversion. Why, all one has to do is be a highly trained gun smith. Sure, you could have a few more fully automatics because semi-automatics are available. A few. Not unter's great abundance. Do try to keep up for once.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Is my freedom to own a semi-auto combat rifle more important than all of the lives of those people in Vegas combined? Of course not. It's not worth a single goddamn injury. And I'd give that rifle up in a minute if the law called for it because I really do believe in that whole silly "common good" thing. My desire to have fun at the range with my muthafukkin Ay-kay yo, is outweighed by the overall needs and rights of society.

Really that means you should work on passing a constitutional amendment, unlike those on the gun-crazy side who try to find a way to interpret the 2nd Amendment to say people can't have guns.

While you're at it, perhaps you can tell me if you're also willing to give up freedom of speech for the common good, freedom of assembly for the common good, freedom of religion for the common good, freedom of petition for the common good, and freedom of the press for the common good. Back when the Bill of Rights was written they couldn't envision the internet, the greatest most powerful means of communication was a printing press. Oh, and also they couldn't envision Scientology, they only had to deal with different denominations of Christianity.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Is my freedom to own a semi-auto combat rifle more important than all of the lives of those people in Vegas combined? Of course not. It's not worth a single goddamn injury. And I'd give that rifle up in a minute if the law called for it because I really do believe in that whole silly "common good" thing. My desire to have fun at the range with my muthafukkin Ay-kay yo, is outweighed by the overall needs and rights of society.

Really that means you should work on passing a constitutional amendment, unlike those on the gun-crazy side who try to find a way to interpret the 2nd Amendment to say people can't have guns.

2nd amendment says citizens can bear nuclear arms.

 

[blastula]

Nukes don't kill people.

 

[DBT]

Attitude is everything. The desire to kill as a means of solving one's problems is an attitude that should have been addressed in schools and homes long ago.
Some of the worst offenders are our governing bodies and political leaders....individuals don't even compare to Governments and their military/hardware when it comes to unnecessary wars, misery and suffering, ''collateral damage'' etc...the attitude of killing as a solution being a common theme in human affairs.

 

[untermensche]

Attitude is everything. The desire to kill as a means of solving one's problems is an attitude that should have been addressed in schools and homes long ago.
Some of the worst offenders are our governing bodies and political leaders....individuals don't even compare to Governments and their military/hardware when it comes to unnecessary wars, misery and suffering, ''collateral damage'' etc...the attitude of killing as a solution being a common theme in human affairs.

Come on now.

We are just a bunch of autonomous brains that cannot make any decisions.

Why all the angst?

It does no good. We have no free will or ability to change anything.

 

[DBT]

Attitude is everything. The desire to kill as a means of solving one's problems is an attitude that should have been addressed in schools and homes long ago.
Some of the worst offenders are our governing bodies and political leaders....individuals don't even compare to Governments and their military/hardware when it comes to unnecessary wars, misery and suffering, ''collateral damage'' etc...the attitude of killing as a solution being a common theme in human affairs.

Come on now.

We are just a bunch of autonomous brains that cannot make any decisions.

Why all the angst?

It does no good. We have no free will or ability to change anything.

Still clueless. I have never said anything about not being able to make decisions, that is your strawman. Nor did my remark have anything to do with angst. Calling for education is not angst. Examining the root causes of a given problem is not a matter of angst.

Rather than seeing what you want to see and disregarding the rest, you need to read more carefully and learn to comprehend what is being said.

 

[untermensche]

Come on now.

We are just a bunch of autonomous brains that cannot make any decisions.

Why all the angst?

It does no good. We have no free will or ability to change anything.

Still clueless. I have never said anything about not being able to make decisions, that is your strawman. Nor did my remark have anything to do with angst. Calling for education is not angst. Examining the root causes of a given problem is not a matter of angst.

Rather than seeing what you want to see and disregarding the rest, you need to read more carefully and learn to comprehend what is being said.

You do not practice what you preach.

You say our consciousnesses can make no decisions and direct nothing.

But like everybody else you act as if it can.

 

[DBT]

Still clueless. I have never said anything about not being able to make decisions, that is your strawman. Nor did my remark have anything to do with angst. Calling for education is not angst. Examining the root causes of a given problem is not a matter of angst.

Rather than seeing what you want to see and disregarding the rest, you need to read more carefully and learn to comprehend what is being said.

You do not practice what you preach.

You say our consciousnesses can make no decisions and direct nothing.

But like everybody else you act as if it can.

Brains make decisions. You are derailing the thread, take your autonomy of consciousness assertion to the appropriate thread.

 

[untermensche]

You do not practice what you preach.

You say our consciousnesses can make no decisions and direct nothing.

But like everybody else you act as if it can.

Brains make decisions. You are derailing the thread, take your autonomy of consciousness assertion to the appropriate thread.

We have a difference of opinion.

Here is where we find evidence we act on our opinions.

Not on some internal programming of the brain.

We are conscious beings that can act on our opinions and nothing else.

 

[DBT]

Take it to the appropriate thread.

 

[untermensche]

Take it to the appropriate thread.

I'm done. Point made.

 

[Patooka]

Despite all the hype it didn't work in Australia.

1) The murder rate was already going down, the gun-banners are taking credit for this. All you actually see is noise around the trend line, just what you would expect to see if nothing were changed. Gun bans simply disarm the law-abiding.

2) They've had mass shootings since.

3) Given their population many years between crazies would be expected anyway. We simply don't have enough data.

Wait, there has been other mass shootings in Australia? How have I missed this?

 

[dannyk]

Despite all the hype it didn't work in Australia.

1) The murder rate was already going down, the gun-banners are taking credit for this. All you actually see is noise around the trend line, just what you would expect to see if nothing were changed. Gun bans simply disarm the law-abiding.

2) They've had mass shootings since.

3) Given their population many years between crazies would be expected anyway. We simply don't have enough data.

Wait, there has been other mass shootings in Australia? How have I missed this?

There have been 'mass' non random family murder suicide type mass shootings but I think that's it.


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