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According to Robert Sapolsky, human free will does not exist

I didn't suggest that a belief in RF being true would be a contradiction; It is the belief that RF has value that would be contradictory.

If you believe that RF is true, then you must logically believe that knowing that it is is valueless. The knowledge gets you nothing you weren't getting anyway.

Still not sure I agree about there being a contradiction.

The posited contradiction is that (i) the universe is, in fact, fatalistic, and (ii) a person within that fatalistic universe believes there is value in believing in a fatalistic universe. In a truly fatalistic universe, every seeming belief is a fated brain function. So, just as the having a belief in a fatalistic universe is meaningless, but not contradictory, in a truly fatalistic universe, the same is true of having a belief in the value of having such a belief -- like a computer that asserts "I find value in believing I am alive even if I am not alive" when it is turned on simply because it has been programmed to say that whenever it is turned on.
 
What is the evidence for a fatalistic universe? I submit none. As mentioned earlier, if I could view the whole history of the universe somehow from outside of it, like a putative spectator god, what evidence could I adduce that the universe had to be that way, as opposed to the fact that it just was that way?
 
The posited contradiction is that (i) the universe is, in fact, fatalistic, and (ii) a person within that fatalistic universe believes there is value in believing in a fatalistic universe.
That's still not quite what I am trying to say.

Rather:
The posited contradiction is that
(i) fatalism implies the impossibility of alternative consequences or beliefs, and
(ii) a person within a fatalistic universe gains something they value, as a consequence of their (true) belief in a fatalistic universe, that they would not have gained had they not believed.

One (or both) of these must be false.
 
Bsilv

More wordy talking around an issue. You claimed a connection between Buddhism and determinism, present it.

Christians quote 'Christian scholars'. They abound with an array of interpretations, inventions, and they do not all agree.

As with Jesus there are no contemporaneous accounts of an historical Buddha and who he was. The main story is anecdotal.

Steve, I previously provided my explanation of the claimed connection between Buddhism and determinism, along with citation to the Repetti article. It is post Number 1,133 in this thread, which is addressed to you and posted at 8:25 p.m. three days ago.

You can read it at https://iidb.org/threads/according-...ill-does-not-exist.27739/page-57#post-1316238.

In your post from earlier today, you also did not ask me to explain the claimed connection between Buddhism and determinism (which I already had done 3 days earlier). Rather, you simply made the following declarative assertions (among others):

As to Buddhism and determinism you would have to quote chapter an verse and authorship.

Over here in the USA identifying as Buddhist has very little meaning. Many identify for different reasons.

You would have to show the 'scholars' you refer to and what their lineage is. In traditions like Hinduism and Buddhism lineage of a teacher or author is important.

I expressed agreement with everything you stated in your post, writing "Not arguing with anything you wrote."

I then volunteered the identity of two scholars, whose work draws a connection between Buddhism and Determinism (as previously discussed at length in my post from earlier in the week), and I then offered some general observations about scholarship, in general.

I fail to understand how my relatively brief post that replied to a post of yours that did not ask any question is "More wordy talking around an issue."

Oh well, c'est la vie (whether it must be so or simply will be so).
 
One such axiom that has borne a lot of weight, though, is "there is something happening, and I am some mere member of it".

All good on the full post from which I pulled your last statement.

When I began reading the last sentence (quoted above), I thought you were going somewhere else:

There's something happening here
What it is ain't exactly clear

Stay Well
 
What is the evidence for a fatalistic universe? I submit none. As mentioned earlier, if I could view the whole history of the universe somehow from outside of it, like a putative spectator god, what evidence could I adduce that the universe had to be that way, as opposed to the fact that it just was that way?
Nobody can possibly know what, if any, evidence could be adduced about the universe from outside the universe. Nobody can possibly know what it would be like to view the universe from outside the universe. Nor, for that matter , is there necessarily such a thing as "outside the universe" -- which is, itself, another non-falsifiable hypothesis. In fact, I find it amazing that folks in this board talk about the possibility of a multiverse with infinite possibilities while shunning discussion of a form of Determinism that Jarhyn brands Radical Fatalism. It seems to me that these are two extreme sides (or bookends) of non-falsifiable paradigms of the universe.
 
Nobody can possibly know what, if any, evidence could be adduced about the universe from outside the universe
You still have yet to provide any evidence that the concept is coherent in the first place.
 
Nobody can possibly know what, if any, evidence could be adduced about the universe from outside the universe. Nobody can possibly know what it would be like to view the universe from outside the universe. Nor, for that matter , is there necessarily such a thing as "outside the universe" -- which is, itself, another non-falsifiable hypothesis.
Sure, but then, nobody can possibly know what it would be like to travel on a tram at a significant fraction of lightspeed, and yet conducting that thought experiment turned out to be pretty useful for Einstein.

Imagination need not be constrained by possibility in order to be useful; But that doesn't imply that all imaginary conjectures are useful, or are equally useful.

The concept of viewing an n dimensional object from an n+1 dimensional "external" perspective is perfectly commonplace for n<=2; We consider points on a line, or lines on a plane, without any issue. To extend this to thinking about three dimensional objects from a temporal perspective is a very small stretch, and most people have no problem with it; Extending the same concept into five or more dimensions is much more effort (because we evolved in an environment without any pressure to do such thinking). But it's not some wildly exotic idea, like lightspeed tramways, or universes which exist entirely in our imagination, or universes in which we have no freedom to choose.
 
I find it amazing that folks in this board talk about the possibility of a multiverse with infinite possibilities while shunning discussion of a form of Determinism that Jarhyn brands Radical Fatalism.
For a discussion that we are "shunning", we don't half spend a lot of time on it. This thread has over 1,200 posts, and is far from the first thread in which we have discussed the topic.
 
Meaningless. For instance, what does ''noise overcoming signal'' even mean in relation to compatibilism
Wow, you are tetchy tonight!

Go ahead and study what "noise vs signal" is, with respect to software engineering and semiconductor mechanics, then come back please.

When put in the context of "an object is freely traveling on a trajectory until acted upon by an outside source", it SHOULD be kind of obvious.

We are not talking about software engineering. The subject is the question of free will.

As it stands, we have several definitions of free will, the compatibilist version in relation to determinism as they define it to be, the Libertarian version, common usage of the term, social convention, law, etc.

I didn't ask you about software development or noise versus signal, but the validity of these claims. The validity of compatibilism, not in relation to software engineering, but their own definition of how the world works.

You can also include a description of your idea of free will and how it may work in relation to how you conceive the world works, be it deterministic, probabilistic or however you think it is. Or not, whatever suits, but software engineering doesn't relate to free will.

Or perhaps you still maintain that computers may be conscious and may have free will?
 
Meaningless. For instance, what does ''noise overcoming signal'' even mean in relation to compatibilism
Wow, you are tetchy tonight!

Go ahead and study what "noise vs signal" is, with respect to software engineering and semiconductor mechanics, then come back please.

When put in the context of "an object is freely traveling on a trajectory until acted upon by an outside source", it SHOULD be kind of obvious.

We are not talking about software engineering. The subject is the question of free will.

As it stands, we have several definitions of free will, the compatibilist version in relation to determinism as they define it to be, the Libertarian version, common usage of the term, social convention, law, etc.

I didn't ask you about software development or noise versus signal, but the validity of these claims. The validity of compatibilism, not in relation to software engineering, but their own definition of how the world works.

You can also include a description of your idea of free will and how it may work in relation to how you conceive the world works, be it deterministic, probabilistic or however you think it is. Or not, whatever suits, but software engineering doesn't relate to free will.

Or perhaps you still maintain that computers may be conscious and may have free will?
 
Pragmatic is my middle name.

Regardless of convoluted long running philosophical debates over thousands of years we are faced with a reality as it is not what we want or imagine it to be.

We have to make decisions. What to do fora living, grocery shopping, who to vote for.

Determinism is a brief as is a religious belief.

Pragmatically we have free will, our choices are not forcibly coerced. At least in western liberal democracies.

Pragmatically endless debate for pleasure over free will and determinism on the net 24/7 is a modern luxury.


Yet the world is sufficiently determinist to enable us to predict events when sufficient information is available, calculate orbits, place landers on Venus, Mars, Titan, predict the return of comets, etcetera.....

At least, as some compatibilists define it, Adequate Determinism

''Adequate Determinism is the kind of determinism we have in the world. It is the determinism of Newtonian physics, capable of sending men to the moon and back with astonishing accuracy. It is the determinism of those physiologists who think that quantum uncertainty is insignificant in the macromolecular structures of cell biology.
We are happy to agree with scientists and philosophers who feel that quantum effects are for the most part negligible in the macroscopic world. We particularly agree that they are negligible when considering the causally determined will and the causally determined actions set in motion by decisions of that will.''
 
We are not talking about software engineering. The subject is the question of free will.
That seems quite the assertion, that a free will is somehow distinct in a meaningful way from a program unobstructed from the conditions that lead it to a clean exit code.

I strongly suggest you study signal processing so you can at least understand your ignorance about the topic.
 
Pragmatic is my middle name.

Regardless of convoluted long running philosophical debates over thousands of years we are faced with a reality as it is not what we want or imagine it to be.

We have to make decisions. What to do fora living, grocery shopping, who to vote for.

Determinism is a brief as is a religious belief.

Pragmatically we have free will, our choices are not forcibly coerced. At least in western liberal democracies.

Pragmatically endless debate for pleasure over free will and determinism on the net 24/7 is a modern luxury.


Yet the world is sufficiently determinist to enable us to predict events when sufficient information is available, calculate orbits, place landers on Venus, Mars, Titan, predict the return of comets, etcetera.....

At least, as some compatibilists define it, Adequate Determinism

''Adequate Determinism is the kind of determinism we have in the world. It is the determinism of Newtonian physics, capable of sending men to the moon and back with astonishing accuracy. It is the determinism of those physiologists who think that quantum uncertainty is insignificant in the macromolecular structures of cell biology.
We are happy to agree with scientists and philosophers who feel that quantum effects are for the most part negligible in the macroscopic world. We particularly agree that they are negligible when considering the causally determined will and the causally determined actions set in motion by decisions of that will.''

Plants use quantum physics to survive.
 
We are not talking about software engineering. The subject is the question of free will.
That seems quite the assertion, that a free will is somehow distinct in a meaningful way from a program unobstructed from the conditions that lead it to a clean exit code.

I strongly suggest you study signal processing so you can at least understand your ignorance about the topic.

I didn't ask you about software development or noise versus signal, but the validity of these claims
And herein lies the problem: you and Bruce have both already validated that you cannot find an internal contradiction in any of it; that the view is entirely coherent.

In the assembly of frameworks, the standard is not "true" or "false" and trying to think of it that way is incorrect. Godel's Incompleteness would be violated in such a situation as any axiom declares truth of any other axiom or even as the system does so.

The standard for frameworks is that they do not contain contradictions, first, and then secondly that the framework matches the observations and that it continues to do so for all observations.

Demands for "proving" the framework rather than merely demonstrating internal consistency and being unable to invalidate the language against observation, are inappropriate.

You have already admitted, however, that the framework I have submitted IS internally consistent to the best of your knowledge, and that you cannot find any way that it might contain a or claim the existence of a contradiction.

All that matters after that is if it seems to successfully describes some phenomena of nature.

To understand this particular topic, because it pertains to the nature of what consciousness is, how behavior arises from mechanical structures, and whether signals are overcoming some manner of noise, there are a number of hard topics one should really be expected to learn first before weighing in, or at least attempt to study as soon as they realize it is important.

The result is that while I have held up a syntax error, a violation of basic axioms of logic standing central in your framework, you have exposed no flaw in my own; and you admit that the framework is entirely applicable to observations.

Literally the only complaint you can offer is repeated retreat to the syntax error contained in "the ability for (singleton/instance/place) to do otherwise".

Until you have encountered a number of syntax errors and understand why NO language admits such constructions, you will continue to fail to understand this specific syntax error.

To do that, you must practice some task or learn some skill wherein syntax errors are detected and rejected due to such differences between reference values, immediate values, and types.

The problem is that this particular lecture also trips up many aspiring software engineers; in fact if I was teaching a major, I would make sure that lecture happens in the first 2 weeks just so everyone who is going to fail it has a chance to drop the course first.

Anyway, I recommend that you go and learn the topic and then maybe write a trivial program where you manipulate and play around with the differences between values and types.

As it is, I get the sneaking suspicion that the folks who couldn't pass that lecture, however, are exactly the radical fatalists and libertarians I run into in the world. It would make sense that this failing seen among software engineers will see expression in other fields of discussion, because it involves a difficulty that most people have with abstraction.

But until you can understand why you have to be strict with modal language, you need to learn more about why modal language rules are sound and expected.
 
How quantum brain biology can rescue conscious free will.

Not that I think it needs rescuing, but this is very interesting. On reflection, it seems very odd that we should suppose living systems don’t exploit quantum mechanics, which is the basis of everything.
Ok, so, I see this posted and have commented a few times about it: how do you justify the "mystical antenna" view of quantum interactions over the "probabilistic stir stick/lubricant" view?

Because I have encountered discussions of quantum phenomena in the cellular world, and I have yet to see any instances at all of it being used in any way other than to make events happen more "reliably".

In the brain itself, instead of seeing the neuron in the "perfectly spherical frictionless cow" sort of way, we have to see it as what it really is: a cockamamie contraption made of tiny just-so molecular motors that fuck up, have "settling", get stuck, and otherwise have whatever issues that extremely complicated mechanical systems tend to have. These tend to happen because certain mechanical systems can end up in states like "ball settles on small depression on top of hill", and if "the mechanics of the system expect the ball to roll one way or the other", then the stability of the hill causes errors, at least until "another ball" comes and knocks the settled one out of its equilibrium.

But if we are to imagine the ball on the top of the hill in a depression, and the hill itself is now made to vibrate gently, but at a frequency that will not allow a ball to settle in that depression suddenly the system works much more smoothly and reliably.

This is what I propose quantum effects in biology end up getting "used" for: breaking pesky equilibrium.

I will note that this theory can be TESTED: all we have to do is engineer a neuron with structural nanotubes engineered or modified to not vibrate in this way.

If the function of the neurons becomes "less smooth" or "more gridlocked", the nanotube is there to PREVENT probabilistics from playing a role.
 
Orchestrated objective reduction wherein it is claimed that brains exploit quantum mechanics and could provide a basis to support not just free will (libertarian?) but also resolve the hard problem of consciousness,
QM might add unpredictability to a brain's outputs, but this is absolutely unrelated to any kind of free will, unless we are claiming that a brain can alter the quantum behaviour of its component atoms, which is both implausible and unnecessary.

I am also seeing no way to use QM to get any kind of handle on the 'hard problem'.

Penrose seems to be using 'quantum' to mean 'magic', and to be using it to solve a set of problems that don't exist - first and foremost being the "problem" that brains are incapable of processing thought via the interactions of networks of neurons. There is exactly zero evidence that brains cannot do this, and stacks of good evidence that this is in fact exactly what brains do.
 
How quantum brain biology can rescue conscious free will.

Not that I think it needs rescuing, but this is very interesting. On reflection, it seems very odd that we should suppose living systems don’t exploit quantum mechanics, which is the basis of everything.
Obviously living systems (like all other systems) are quantum mechanical at small enough scales. But the idea that this is necessary or even relevant for the act of thinking is bizarre.

How would you feel about my hypothesis that, as locomotion is clearly impossible from mere macroscopic contractions of muscle fibres, walking can be rescued by an understanding of the quantum mechanics of myosin?
 
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