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This week in trans: The Lancet, the ACLU, the Guardian

Yeah, gotta say, when i see a thread title here, i never have thought to myself, 'I bet that's a Ziprhead thread.'

"This week in trans" says it all to me, that Metaphor has an obsession, not just with trans people, but digging up the most idiotic trans people to put them on display.

Jarhyn has an obsession: it's responding to every thread I make despite having me on ignore. He does not read any of my OPs, so he does not know what I am saying. It ought be embarrassing for him to get things so wrong so repeatedly. Anybody reading any of my recent OPs will know they are not focused on any particular trans people at all, let alone 'idiotic' ones. They are about the cultural and political developments in relation to trans ideology.

It's been tempting to start a "this week in Australian gay culture" where every week I impugn a different idiotic Australian gay person for being a complete tool bag. That's not an attack, right? Right? Beuller?

I look forward to it.

At least, though, were I to do this I would be a little better at actually finding and vetting every "idiotic gay Australian" I were to post about as actually idiotic. It would not do to make a posting about gay Australians being idiots and then fall on my face as thoroughly as some of these in actually toeing the line.

I don't know what this paragraph means, but I'm sure Jarhyn had something in mind.
 
I am very careful with my word choice. Not because that's my natural state, but because there are people on this board who will read against the text and distort anything I say, because they do not like what I am saying.

Now, I do not believe I have been 'sloppy' with my word choices. I have not said anything in the above post that conflicts with how I've used the words 'sex' and 'gender' before.



Gender identity exists because thoughts exist. Gender identity is a thought in a person's head. I consider uttered gender identities something like a star sign or like a cosmic Myers-Briggs personality type. I just don't need to know.

Clearly, you recognize that it exists. Clearly you are engaging in some mental gymnastics to try to convince me that you believe differently?

I don't know in what universe you can believe I have tried to obscure that I believe gender identity exists. I don't know what is going on in your head that you can think that. I don't know how you are processing my posts, except with extreme prejudice. I do not want to count how many times I've said 'gender identity exists and is a thought in a person's head' or 'gender identity can be a spectrum, because a thought can be anything'.

Thoughts exist. Personalities exist. When somebody, say, somebody like Jarhyn, says "my gender is wizardgender", I believe them. But it's like telling me your star sign. I did not ask and do not care.

But I do care when people believe that sex and gender are interchangeable, or, worse, that we should pretend that somebody's gender identity is their sex when we are talking about situations where people have traditionally been separated by sex.

You do not read carefully. I never claimed that you were sloppy about word choice. I claimed that I sometimes am and that you castigate me for it.

I also believe that you do not discuss in good faith.
 
Yeah, gotta say, when i see a thread title here, i never have thought to myself, 'I bet that's a Ziprhead thread.'

"This week in trans" says it all to me, that Metaphor has an obsession, not just with trans people, but digging up the most idiotic trans people to put them on display. It's been tempting to start a "this week in Australian gay culture" where every week I impugn a different idiotic Australian gay person for being a complete tool bag. That's not an attack, right? Right? Beuller?

Bullshit, Jarhyn. Have you been tracking M's threads, reading his posts, examining them, paying attention?

Can you read English, or is it your second language?

I thought you were brighter than this nonsense you keep spouting, not only about Metaphor, but Emily, and myself one time, when I explained to you (very nicely, delicately) that dragging a woman out of a bar by her hair was NEVER an option a legitimate police officer would take, or indeed ANY rational, not-insane individual with authority granted to them from someone above their pay-grade: i.e. Not any yahoo with whatever genitalia who has only the brute power and lack of intellectual discipline and genuine courage that fuels many a TV-infected gun nut here and elsewhere.

***

And rocks are not agents. Get used to it.

Rocks are exactly the agents that they are, in the capacity they have, to be influenced by physics as they will and reflect the translation of the extant forces back out, again as they will. That is all this means, and if you wish to say that rocks are not things which get influenced by physics and translate those forces as they reflect them back on reality, I do not know what to say.

This seems more built around a desire to be more special than rocks in every way. We are definitely more complicated than a rock, but to say that it is not complicated at all to be a rock is still anthropomorphic faff.

At any rate, I think that "never" and "always" are problematic stances to ever take and must rely on heaping quantities of doubt. Never and Always don't leave much room for that doubt.

As it is, the part you quoted makes my point: all I did was bring up a shape Metaphor seems fond of: every week they post a new shit thread wherein they whinge about trans people. None of the threads celebrate anything about it, they just attack attack attack. Even when metaphor bends the slightest bit to accede any thing about the rights to privacy of trans people, it is done right on the back of "there are only two sexes and only sex matters for social recognition", and more recently "nobody can pass against me, so nobody deserves it", as if "passing" Metaphor's recognition should be the bar of whether you have a right to respectful privacy. The begged question as the subject is whether "sex" actually matters socially AT ALL for legal purposes outside of extreme edge cases that we are already so far beyond fucking wrong that the issues created by trans people in those spaces are artifacts of other insane treatment; that by eliminating the other insanity, the "trans issues" involved evaporate in a puff of smoke (such as with prison populations and society needing reform there, or with athletes and sports being about hormone and androgen exposures over an agreed-on timeframe per sport.

Sometimes kids are psychopaths. Sometimes a person, however be-boobed and be-ovaried they are, presents that the safest path forward for all parties lies in the "dragging" of that person by their hair. Sometimes people post what in one or two doses would be sane warning but posted from the same direction from the same source consistently constitutes an irrational vendetta.

You should know that by now I don't go for much tv at all, let alone shoot-em-ups. About as "guns" I get is "Trigun", which I recommend for anyone who appreciates LOVE(u) AND(u) PEACE(u) (it's a joke about the anime).

I'll ask you, who is the voice who argues that any use of violence is a tragedy?

After about 10 years of reading his posts, I put Metaphor on Ignore. About 50% of the time I'll go incognito so as to read an OP just to make sure I'm not (statistically likely to be) missing any signs of substantive change that would drive me to reverse their status.

If you are not incensed enough about this to have put me on ignore for a time, I wouldn't mind discussing it in any context you wish.

As it is I don't take any issue with disagreeing. You are being kind of mean about it, though, seeing as I am not being mean about disagreeing with you. I am just tired, as a person with gender issues, of the constant aspersions cast over people with gender issues by the pattern of this thread's OP.

Imagine for a moment that you had a constant stream of bilious propaganda (it is bile, from where I stand) spewed "weekly" on the one internet place you actually tend to visit outside of direct messengers or Reddit targeting you and your friends.

It would be like growing up with Mexican heritage and occasionally smoking weed in the age when "Marijuana" hit the papers, and they use your culture and something you do as the basis for a concentrated propaganda effort against your "race", really against your community and people who "look like and talk like"? It wouldn't feel great. I can see more situations where it's appropriate to drag a person by their hair than I can see of where it is appropriate to drive such a one-sided narrative!

I had, and still have, concerns about the conduct of trans people with respect to certain edge cases; and the conduct towards trans people in others. I try to make these clear and propose solutions towards those issues, though, and where the real problems seem to be. It's just not the behavior I see consistently applied by Bomb, Metaphor, or Emily. Having concerns and letting those concerns rule you are two very different things.

I accept that the things we wish we were agents of, we are not. I am not the agent of my own happiness, though what I do with that happiness I am the most powerful agent of, generally. And so I accept that Emily, Metaphor, and AM, Bomb and the like who generally post in such threads may not fully have agency over what looms large in society to them. But they do have agency over deciding what to do about it. They decide to come here and repeatedly post threads that are propaganda against me and mine.

This is the reason they and I have conflict. Observe that I don't have any gripe with you; perhaps it is just my usual prickliness that you see? You ask questions and you have doubts and concerns. I don't think that you have ever expressed something that isn't a clearly legitimate concern. These can be discussed happily, with little consternation, if any (and I don't run from merely a little consternation), in public or private.
 
It's a preference thing. I see this bald woman with a stroller but after my last "friend" I'm weary.
The point is not strangers, the point is it is unisex.

And my counterpoint is that unisex is perfectly fine when you control the individuals that have access. It's something completely different when unisex means complete strangers have access at will.
Last thing I want to see is my daughter being frisked over your paranoia.
Seriously, this culture you are fighting for is problematic.

I see it as problematic that the other side is fighting for a culture where males have complete access to females of any age, in any stage of undress, and those females have no right to give or withhold their consent. I think it's problematic that some people are fighting for a culture that legalizes and normalizes voyeurism and exhibitionism as a right held in higher esteem than consent.
 
Last thing I want to see is my daughter being frisked over your paranoia.
Seriously, this culture you are fighting for is problematic.

I see it as problematic that the other side is fighting for a culture where males have complete access to females of any age, in any stage of undress, and those females have no right to give or withhold their consent. I think it's problematic that some people are fighting for a culture that legalizes and normalizes voyeurism and exhibitionism as a right held in higher esteem than consent.

It’s the wedge to normalize pedophilia.
 
Nature provides us also with hermaphroditism as found in multiple animal species with individuals producing male and female gametes. Not to mention plants!
Not in ANY mammal. Not in the vast majority of vertebrates. But we don't need to get that bogged down, why don't we stick with mammals? In mammals, it is impossible for any individual to produce BOTH male and female gametes.

Or human hermaphroditism, people with non typical sex chromosome code figurations, homosexual individuals, bisexual individuals, asexual individuals —and transsexual individuals.

So all that nature is binary is simply crap. Your brain may only be able to understand binary but that’s not all that nature provides.

Why are you conflating deleterious disorders of sexual development with sexual orientation as if they have something in common? Let alone tossing gender dysphoria into that mix? They have nothing to do with one another. DSDs do not in any fashion at all counter the reality that sex is binary in humans. Sexual orientation certainly doesn't. So why are you bringing in these red herrings?
 
Last thing I want to see is my daughter being frisked over your paranoia.
Seriously, this culture you are fighting for is problematic.

I see it as problematic that the other side is fighting for a culture where males have complete access to females of any age, in any stage of undress, and those females have no right to give or withhold their consent. I think it's problematic that some people are fighting for a culture that legalizes and normalizes voyeurism and exhibitionism as a right held in higher esteem than consent.

It’s the wedge to normalize pedophilia.
Oh fuck. The boogeyman.
Qquit.
 
And what if they have both types?

It is not possible for a human to have both types of gametes.

In the extraordinarily rare case of true hermaphroditism, an individual may have:
Two testes that do or do not produce sperm (always considered male)
Two ovaries that produce do or do not eggs (always considered female)
One testis that does or does not produce sperm and one ovotestis that produces no gametes (always considered male)
One ovary that does or does not produce eggs and one ovotestis that produces no gametes (always considered female)
One testis that produces sperm and one ovary that produces no gametes (always considered male)
One testis that produces no sperm and one ovary that produces eggs (always considered female)
One testis and one ovary where neither produces gametes (classification based on genetic composition)
Two ovotestes that produce no gametes (classification based on genetic composition, usually male but not always)


Something on the order of 99% of cases do NOT involve having both a testis and an ovary. The most common cases involve one or two ovotestes. And in most cases where the person has two ovotestes, they are still genetically classifiable as either male or female.
 
0.0012% of births are intersex, ergo humans are not binary? Yeah, no.

Yes.

If there is any intermediate state it isn't binary. The intermediate state being rare doesn't change that. Look at something that is truly binary: That computer in front of you.

The hardware is built on a basis that .50001 = 1 and .49999 = 0. Intermediate values are interpreted as the binary they are closest to. (And, yes, the intermediates do exist--voltage drop happens.)

This is not true, and it's largely due to the term "intersex" implying that the individual is literally in-between sexes. That's not the case though.

DSDs make up about 0.2% of births... but of those over 99% of them are unambiguously male or female. Their DSD results in infertility, or results in developmental problems at puberty. Most people with a DSD don't even know they have one until they try to have a kid.

Of the incredibly low number of people who have ambiguous genitalia, most are cleanly classifiable as male or female based on their gonads.

Of the vanishingly small number of people whose genitalia and gonads are not easy to classify, they are still classifiable based on their genetic composition.
 
Not to mention that Trausti ass-pulled a number orders of magnitude low, and that the number is as high or higher than that of those who present with genital and/or hormone and/or gender-socialization dysphoria.

Gender dysphoria is not a DSD.
 
Not to mention that Trausti ass-pulled a number orders of magnitude low, and that the number is as high or higher than that of those who present with genital and/or hormone and/or gender-socialization dysphoria.

True hermaphroditism represents of 5% of all disorders of sex development.[10] Estimated frequency of ovotestes is one in 83,000 births (0.0012%).[11]

 True_hermaphroditism

True hermaphroditism is the only DSD that produces both ambiguous genitalia and ambiguous gonad malformation. All of the others are cleanly classifiable as male or female. And with True Hermaphroditism, they can still be classified as strictly male or female based on chromosomal composition.
 
The trans movement is about the idea that perceived gender is separate from physical gender. There seems to be a mental gender that normally but not always matches the physical gender--we saw that before the trans movement showed up. (Learned the hard way by trying to surgically correct intersex babies and sometimes getting the resulting gender different than the mental gender. The trans movement is about recognizing that nature sometimes gets it wrong, not just the surgeons.)

Oooh! Ladybrains! What fun.

There is not a mental gender. There is, however, severe gender dysphoria. That is not a case of someone being born in the wrong body or having the brain of the opposite sex or having a gendered soul. It is a symptom that is generally considered to represent no risk to others, but in many cases is deleterious to the wellbeing of the individual.
 
Rocks are exactly the agents that they are, in the capacity they have, to be influenced by physics as they will and reflect the translation of the extant forces back out, again as they will. That is all this means, and if you wish to say that rocks are not things which get influenced by physics and translate those forces as they reflect them back on reality, I do not know what to say.

If you completely redefine "agent" to mean "object" then sure, a rock is an object that physics can act upon.

But for the rest of the people who understand what the term "agent" actually means in discussions of volition and choice, a rock is NOT an agent in any rational sense whatsoever.
 
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Rocks are exactly the agents that they are, in the capacity they have, to be influenced by physics as they will and reflect the translation of the extant forces back out, again as they will. That is all this means, and if you wish to say that rocks are not things which get influenced by physics and translate those forces as they reflect them back on reality, I do not know what to say.

If you completely redefine "agent" to mean "object" then sure, a rock is an object that physics can act upon.

But for the rest of the people who understand what the term "agent" actually means in discussions of volition and choice, a rock is NOT an agent in any rational sense whatsoever.

What about gravity?
 
Rocks are exactly the agents that they are, in the capacity they have, to be influenced by physics as they will and reflect the translation of the extant forces back out, again as they will. That is all this means, and if you wish to say that rocks are not things which get influenced by physics and translate those forces as they reflect them back on reality, I do not know what to say.

If you completely redefine "agent" to mean "object" then sure, a rock is an object that physics can act upon.

But for the rest of the people who understand what the term "agent" actually means in discussions of volition and choice, a rock is NOT an agent in any rational sense whatsoever.

Except that I'm not talking about the object specifically, nor directly. If you want to get into agency and the philosophy, you can join us in philosophical discussion on the subject of agency free will and graph theoretic agency and determinism and what effects that has on material behavior.
 
And what if they have both types?

It is not possible for a human to have both types of gametes.

In the extraordinarily rare case of true hermaphroditism, an individual may have:
Two testes that do or do not produce sperm (always considered male)
Two ovaries that produce do or do not eggs (always considered female)
One testis that does or does not produce sperm and one ovotestis that produces no gametes (always considered male)
One ovary that does or does not produce eggs and one ovotestis that produces no gametes (always considered female)
One testis that produces sperm and one ovary that produces no gametes (always considered male)
One testis that produces no sperm and one ovary that produces eggs (always considered female)
One testis and one ovary where neither produces gametes (classification based on genetic composition)
Two ovotestes that produce no gametes (classification based on genetic composition, usually male but not always)


Something on the order of 99% of cases do NOT involve having both a testis and an ovary. The most common cases involve one or two ovotestes. And in most cases where the person has two ovotestes, they are still genetically classifiable as either male or female.

Even in chimeras?
 
The trans movement is about the idea that perceived gender is separate from physical gender. There seems to be a mental gender that normally but not always matches the physical gender--we saw that before the trans movement showed up. (Learned the hard way by trying to surgically correct intersex babies and sometimes getting the resulting gender different than the mental gender. The trans movement is about recognizing that nature sometimes gets it wrong, not just the surgeons.)

Oooh! Ladybrains! What fun.

There is not a mental gender. There is, however, severe gender dysphoria. That is not a case of someone being born in the wrong body or having the brain of the opposite sex or having a gendered soul. It is a symptom that is generally considered to represent no risk to others, but in many cases is deleterious to the wellbeing of the individual.

Gender dysphoria = mental gender doesn't match physical gender.
 
The trans movement is about the idea that perceived gender is separate from physical gender. There seems to be a mental gender that normally but not always matches the physical gender--we saw that before the trans movement showed up. (Learned the hard way by trying to surgically correct intersex babies and sometimes getting the resulting gender different than the mental gender. The trans movement is about recognizing that nature sometimes gets it wrong, not just the surgeons.)

Oooh! Ladybrains! What fun.

There is not a mental gender. There is, however, severe gender dysphoria. That is not a case of someone being born in the wrong body or having the brain of the opposite sex or having a gendered soul. It is a symptom that is generally considered to represent no risk to others, but in many cases is deleterious to the wellbeing of the individual.

Gender dysphoria = mental gender doesn't match physical gender.

There is no "physical gender". There is a biological sex.
 
And what if they have both types?

It is not possible for a human to have both types of gametes.

In the extraordinarily rare case of true hermaphroditism, an individual may have:
Two testes that do or do not produce sperm (always considered male)
Two ovaries that produce do or do not eggs (always considered female)
One testis that does or does not produce sperm and one ovotestis that produces no gametes (always considered male)
One ovary that does or does not produce eggs and one ovotestis that produces no gametes (always considered female)
One testis that produces sperm and one ovary that produces no gametes (always considered male)
One testis that produces no sperm and one ovary that produces eggs (always considered female)
One testis and one ovary where neither produces gametes (classification based on genetic composition)
Two ovotestes that produce no gametes (classification based on genetic composition, usually male but not always)


Something on the order of 99% of cases do NOT involve having both a testis and an ovary. The most common cases involve one or two ovotestes. And in most cases where the person has two ovotestes, they are still genetically classifiable as either male or female.

Even in chimeras?

What about mosaics?
 
The trans movement is about the idea that perceived gender is separate from physical gender. There seems to be a mental gender that normally but not always matches the physical gender--we saw that before the trans movement showed up. (Learned the hard way by trying to surgically correct intersex babies and sometimes getting the resulting gender different than the mental gender. The trans movement is about recognizing that nature sometimes gets it wrong, not just the surgeons.)

Oooh! Ladybrains! What fun.

There is not a mental gender. There is, however, severe gender dysphoria. That is not a case of someone being born in the wrong body or having the brain of the opposite sex or having a gendered soul. It is a symptom that is generally considered to represent no risk to others, but in many cases is deleterious to the wellbeing of the individual.
Obviously you are wrong as individuals born with ambiguous genitalia learned after doctors made their best guess and sometimes got it wrong.
 
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