This week in trans: The Lancet, the ACLU, the Guardian

[Loren Pechtel]

Why do you struggle with this concept so much? My son is NOT a 'girl living as a boy'. My son is my son regardless of what 'body parts' he possesses or doesn't possess.

If your child is of the sex that has large, sessile gametes, your child is a girl.

And what if they have both types?

 

[Trausti]

Why do you struggle with this concept so much? My son is NOT a 'girl living as a boy'. My son is my son regardless of what 'body parts' he possesses or doesn't possess.

If your child is of the sex that has large, sessile gametes, your child is a girl.

And what if they have both types?

If your child is able to reproduce, can your child pass on mitochondria? If yes, your child is a girl.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You're on the wrong track now. There is no "normal" collective name now so I would have to answer this as "person".

Yes in fact there is.
It's woman.

There's a tiny fraction of people that don't fit the normative sexual categories, male and female. But yeah, there is a normal.

Even if it's politically incorrect to point out this basic truth, there is a normal. Somebody who's "husband" menstruates doesn't change that.
Tom

If one means 'average, typical, or commonplace' then really nothing is wrong with the usage of 'normal'.

However, far too many people stuck in a binary world, are really intending 'traditional, standard, or natural', when they use this word, implying something is wrong with 'those others' that aren't in the normative bucket.

Human sexuality, physically and mentally, is far closer to 50 shades of grey than their black and white projections and fears...and such binary people seem to have a hard time accepting the reality that our society has grown a little more caring and respectful of our human differences; and that these differences are ok.

Exactly. Most every important person in history was far from normal.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And what if they have both types?

If your child is able to reproduce, can your child pass on mitochondria? If yes, your child is a girl.

So you're defining the intersexed as female.

But what if you define males as those who can produce sperm?

Now the intersexed are male.

???

 

[Loren Pechtel]

0.0012% of births are intersex, ergo humans are not binary? Yeah, no.

Yes.

If there is any intermediate state it isn't binary. The intermediate state being rare doesn't change that. Look at something that is truly binary: That computer in front of you.

The hardware is built on a basis that .50001 = 1 and .49999 = 0. Intermediate values are interpreted as the binary they are closest to. (And, yes, the intermediates do exist--voltage drop happens.)

 

[Jarhyn]

0.0012% of births are intersex, ergo humans are not binary? Yeah, no.

Yes.

If there is any intermediate state it isn't binary. The intermediate state being rare doesn't change that.

Not to mention that Trausti ass-pulled a number orders of magnitude low, and that the number is as high or higher than that of those who present with genital and/or hormone and/or gender-socialization dysphoria.

 

[WAB]

0.0012% of births are intersex, ergo humans are not binary? Yeah, no.

Yes.

If there is any intermediate state it isn't binary. The intermediate state being rare doesn't change that.

Not to mention that Trausti ass-pulled a number orders of magnitude low, and that the number is as high or higher than that of those who present with genital and/or hormone and/or gender-socialization dysphoria.

1+ for Jahryn.

 

[Trausti]

0.0012% of births are intersex, ergo humans are not binary? Yeah, no.

Yes.

If there is any intermediate state it isn't binary. The intermediate state being rare doesn't change that.

Not to mention that Trausti ass-pulled a number orders of magnitude low, and that the number is as high or higher than that of those who present with genital and/or hormone and/or gender-socialization dysphoria.

True hermaphroditism represents of 5% of all disorders of sex development.[10] Estimated frequency of ovotestes is one in 83,000 births (0.0012%).[11]

 True_hermaphroditism

 

[Trausti]

0.0012% of births are intersex, ergo humans are not binary? Yeah, no.

Yes.

If there is any intermediate state it isn't binary. The intermediate state being rare doesn't change that. Look at something that is truly binary: That computer in front of you.

The hardware is built on a basis that .50001 = 1 and .49999 = 0. Intermediate values are interpreted as the binary they are closest to. (And, yes, the intermediates do exist--voltage drop happens.)

Some people are born with Tetra-amelia syndrome. Hence, humans are not bipedal?

 

[Trausti]

And what if they have both types?

If your child is able to reproduce, can your child pass on mitochondria? If yes, your child is a girl.

So you're defining the intersexed as female.

But what if you define males as those who can produce sperm?

Now the intersexed are male.

???

Nature allows only one parent to pass on mitochondria. This is likely the reason that binary sex evolved. And the parent that always passes on mitochondria is the one who makes the eggs; the mother; the female.

 

[Metaphor]

Why do you struggle with this concept so much? My son is NOT a 'girl living as a boy'. My son is my son regardless of what 'body parts' he possesses or doesn't possess.

If your child is of the sex that has large, sessile gametes, your child is a girl.

And what if they have both types?

Then they'd be a true hermaphrodite.

EDIT: Also, what if they had both gametes? Is Playball40 claiming his child has both gametes? Do you realise that having both (=2) gametes means sex is binary?

 

[Toni]

So you're defining the intersexed as female.

But what if you define males as those who can produce sperm?

Now the intersexed are male.

???

Nature allows only one parent to pass on mitochondria. This is likely the reason that binary sex evolved. And the parent that always passes on mitochondria is the one who makes the eggs; the mother; the female.

Not only are you backwards in the above, but you actually do not understand the difference between mitochondria and mitochondrial DNA.

It’s almost as if you watched a YouTube or something and thought you understood mitochondria, DNA or mitochondrial DNA or genetics.

 

[Trausti]

So you're defining the intersexed as female.

But what if you define males as those who can produce sperm?

Now the intersexed are male.

???

Nature allows only one parent to pass on mitochondria. This is likely the reason that binary sex evolved. And the parent that always passes on mitochondria is the one who makes the eggs; the mother; the female.

Not only are you backwards in the above, but you actually do not understand the difference between mitochondria and mitochondrial DNA.

It’s almost as if you watched a YouTube or something and thought you understood mitochondria, DNA or mitochondrial DNA or genetics.

If by poor luck you inherit paternal mitochondria, called heteroplasmy, you’re at greater risk of metabolic disorders. There’s a reason biparental mtDNA inheritance is so rare, it’s deleterious to fitness.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So you're defining the intersexed as female.

But what if you define males as those who can produce sperm?

Now the intersexed are male.

???

Nature allows only one parent to pass on mitochondria. This is likely the reason that binary sex evolved. And the parent that always passes on mitochondria is the one who makes the eggs; the mother; the female.

So when you have male sperm + female egg nucleus + donor egg with the nucleus removed = baby do we conclude the female is a father?

(Yes, this is a real procedure, done to produce a child that is genetically theirs when she has a mitochondria defect that she does not want to pass on.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And what if they have both types?

Then they'd be a true hermaphrodite.

EDIT: Also, what if they had both gametes? Is Playball40 claiming his child has both gametes? Do you realise that having both (=2) gametes means sex is binary?

Gametes are binary.

It's just that by the time you are looking at the level of sex there are so many ways for things to get a bit mixed up that it is no longer binary. It's like you can combine 32 binary bits to make a single precision floating point value. Nobody will claim the floating point value is binary.

 

[Metaphor]

And what if they have both types?

Then they'd be a true hermaphrodite.

EDIT: Also, what if they had both gametes? Is Playball40 claiming his child has both gametes? Do you realise that having both (=2) gametes means sex is binary?

Gametes are binary.

It's just that by the time you are looking at the level of sex there are so many ways for things to get a bit mixed up that it is no longer binary. It's like you can combine 32 binary bits to make a single precision floating point value. Nobody will claim the floating point value is binary.

Sexual characteristics are not necessarily binary, but sex is functionally binary in mammals and disorders of sexual development do not change that.

However, as I've said before, the intersex gambit is a furphy. The trans activist movement is not an intersex awareness movement. The trans activist movement's religious chant is "trans women are women", not "some people have disorders of sexual development and therefore some people who were identified male at birth might be closer to biologically female than you think".

No. The trans movement does not make the claim that males who produce sperm, have male-typical gonads, are XY, and have normal amounts of testosterone in their system do not get to be trans women. Nor does the trans movement even want males to have to take any measures whatsoever in order for trans-identified males to be treated socially and legally as women.

Sex in mammals is binary. Gender can be anything at all, because gender identity is a thought in a person's head. I have never inquired about somebody's 'gender' because I don't give a shit and I have no obligation to honour somebody's "gender", whatever that would mean.

I can see whether you are male or female. Volunteering your "gender identity" is like telling me you are a Pisces.

 

[Trausti]

So you're defining the intersexed as female.

But what if you define males as those who can produce sperm?

Now the intersexed are male.

???

Nature allows only one parent to pass on mitochondria. This is likely the reason that binary sex evolved. And the parent that always passes on mitochondria is the one who makes the eggs; the mother; the female.

So when you have male sperm + female egg nucleus + donor egg with the nucleus removed = baby do we conclude the female is a father?

(Yes, this is a real procedure, done to produce a child that is genetically theirs when she has a mitochondria defect that she does not want to pass on.)

Eh, humans can play mad scientist and try to manipulate the recipe of life. But that doesn’t change Nature’s binary. No more than congenital birth defects and disorders do.

 

[none]

So when you have male sperm + female egg nucleus + donor egg with the nucleus removed = baby do we conclude the female is a father?

(Yes, this is a real procedure, done to produce a child that is genetically theirs when she has a mitochondria defect that she does not want to pass on.)

Eh, humans can play mad scientist and try to manipulate the recipe of life. But that doesn’t change Nature’s binary. No more than congenital birth defects and disorders do.

And all you want is to get laid. BORING.

 

[Toni]

Not only are you backwards in the above, but you actually do not understand the difference between mitochondria and mitochondrial DNA.

It’s almost as if you watched a YouTube or something and thought you understood mitochondria, DNA or mitochondrial DNA or genetics.

If by poor luck you inherit paternal mitochondria, called heteroplasmy, you’re at greater risk of metabolic disorders. There’s a reason biparental mtDNA inheritance is so rare, it’s deleterious to fitness.

It’s been established that you are familiar with google. It has not been demonstrated that you understand mtDNA, mitochondria, or genetics. Quite the opposite, actually.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Gametes are binary.

It's just that by the time you are looking at the level of sex there are so many ways for things to get a bit mixed up that it is no longer binary. It's like you can combine 32 binary bits to make a single precision floating point value. Nobody will claim the floating point value is binary.

Sexual characteristics are not necessarily binary, but sex is functionally binary in mammals and disorders of sexual development do not change that.

However, as I've said before, the intersex gambit is a furphy. The trans activist movement is not an intersex awareness movement. The trans activist movement's religious chant is "trans women are women", not "some people have disorders of sexual development and therefore some people who were identified male at birth might be closer to biologically female than you think".

No. The trans movement does not make the claim that males who produce sperm, have male-typical gonads, are XY, and have normal amounts of testosterone in their system do not get to be trans women. Nor does the trans movement even want males to have to take any measures whatsoever in order for trans-identified males to be treated socially and legally as women.

Sex in mammals is binary. Gender can be anything at all, because gender identity is a thought in a person's head. I have never inquired about somebody's 'gender' because I don't give a shit and I have no obligation to honour somebody's "gender", whatever that would mean.

I can see whether you are male or female. Volunteering your "gender identity" is like telling me you are a Pisces.

The trans movement is about the idea that perceived gender is separate from physical gender. There seems to be a mental gender that normally but not always matches the physical gender--we saw that before the trans movement showed up. (Learned the hard way by trying to surgically correct intersex babies and sometimes getting the resulting gender different than the mental gender. The trans movement is about recognizing that nature sometimes gets it wrong, not just the surgeons.)