How can Derek Chauvin expect a fair trial in Minneapolis?

[Toni]

What an asinine response, I never said they were. But the ones at the top are the ones that design the training and procedures for officers.



I think in some departments it does, it is part of the officer training. Obviously Chauvin went beyond what was necessary but I believe that type of restraint is (or was) part of their training.

Talk about asinine: Minneapolis police officers were not COMPELLED to kneel on the necks of suspects.

Talk about it indeed, you are dedicated to asinine responses. I never said Chauvin was COMPELLED to kneel on Floyd's neck for ten minutes.

Well, you did say this:

The idiots at the top were not kneeling on necks.

What an asinine response, I never said they were. But the ones at the top are the ones that design the training and procedures for officers.

PD policy does not compel kneeling on necks.

I think in some departments it does, it is part of the officer training. Obviously Chauvin went beyond what was necessary but I believe that type of restraint is (or was) part of their training.

Which was pretty asinine or else very careless writing on your part. I absolutely agree that Chauvin went far beyond what was necessary to subdue Floyd.

However, kneeling on necks as a form of restraint on suspects resisting arrest is (or was) probably an acceptable tactic in the training procedures for MNPD. Giving such tactics to thugs in uniform such a Chauvin is reckless. Considering Chauvin's record, allowing Chauvin to wear a police uniform is reckless. So things shouldn't stop with Chauvin. The police chief should be next in the dock.

As LD mentioned, kneeling on necks of suspects was no longer an acceptable tactic according to Minneapolis PD at the time of Mr. Floy'ds death. I agree that things should not stop with Chauvin and his fellow officers involved in Floyd's death.

 

[TomC]

Derec you (and a few others here) appear to be absolutely convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that
having someone kneel on your neck for 9 minutes in addition to two more people kneeling on other parts of your body, will not cause death.
And equally convinced that Floyd would have died that day, at that time regardless of the presence of the police
and that moreover, allowing faster medical care could not possibly have saved his life.

Am I one of the people you referred to one "of a few others here"?

Because I'm not.

In fact, I don't think anybody meets your standard. Maybe so, but I don't remember anybody making absolute claims about what happened. Except the posters who insisted that it was a murder.

They've obviously made up their minds, and prefer not to let facts or nuances interfere.
Tom

 

[TSwizzle]

Talk about it indeed, you are dedicated to asinine responses. I never said Chauvin was COMPELLED to kneel on Floyd's neck for ten minutes.

Well, you did say this:

The idiots at the top were not kneeling on necks.

What an asinine response, I never said they were. But the ones at the top are the ones that design the training and procedures for officers.

PD policy does not compel kneeling on necks.

I think in some departments it does, it is part of the officer training. Obviously Chauvin went beyond what was necessary but I believe that type of restraint is (or was) part of their training.

Which was pretty asinine or else very careless writing on your part. I absolutely agree that Chauvin went far beyond what was necessary to subdue Floyd.

Fair enough but I am pretty certain the training does NOT compel officers to kneel on the necks of handcuffed suspects for ten minutes but rather in certain situations it is applicable and desirable for this restraint to be used.

As LD mentioned, kneeling on necks of suspects was no longer an acceptable tactic according to Minneapolis PD at the time of Mr. Floy'ds death. I agree that things should not stop with Chauvin and his fellow officers involved in Floyd's death.

Chauvin is obviously guilty of police brutality regardless of whether that restraint was still on the books. Murder is going to be a little bit more difficult to prove. Manslaughter maybe. There were a lot of contributing factors in Floyd's death.

 

[laughing dog]

Fair enough but I am pretty certain the training does NOT compel officers to kneel on the necks of handcuffed suspects for ten minutes but rather in certain situations it is applicable and desirable for this restraint to be used.

It was not acceptable in Minneapolis in that situation. See https://kstp.com/news/police-training-expert-speak-on-fatal-minneapolis-incident-may-26-2020/5741911/

"As soon as you hear somebody can't breathe, you need to ask for medical attention, change your positioning change to see what’s going on," Masson said.

Masson said MPD also does not typically teach the "knee on neck" technique and instead teaches "knee into shoulder blades" as a restraint tactic.

Masson trained Minneapolis police officers until 2016.

 

[Trausti]

Fair enough but I am pretty certain the training does NOT compel officers to kneel on the necks of handcuffed suspects for ten minutes but rather in certain situations it is applicable and desirable for this restraint to be used.

It was not acceptable in Minneapolis in that situation. See https://kstp.com/news/police-training-expert-speak-on-fatal-minneapolis-incident-may-26-2020/5741911/

"As soon as you hear somebody can't breathe, you need to ask for medical attention, change your positioning change to see what’s going on," Masson said.

Masson said MPD also does not typically teach the "knee on neck" technique and instead teaches "knee into shoulder blades" as a restraint tactic.

Masson trained Minneapolis police officers until 2016.

The key question is whether Chauvin's holding of Floyd, whether in accordance with procedure or not, was the cause of Floyd's death. The knee on the neck would imply death by asphyxiation. But the criminal complaint expressly states that Floyd's autopsy "revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation. Mr. Floyd had underlying health conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease." We also know from the autopsy that he had OD levels of drugs in his system. The medical examiner concluded he died of cardiopulmonary arrest. If not for all the media and riots, it's hard to imagine there'd be criminal charges at all.

 

[Rhea]

Derec you (and a few others here) appear to be absolutely convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that
having someone kneel on your neck for 9 minutes in addition to two more people kneeling on other parts of your body, will not cause death.
And equally convinced that Floyd would have died that day, at that time regardless of the presence of the police
and that moreover, allowing faster medical care could not possibly have saved his life.

Am I one of the people you referred to one "of a few others here"?

Only if you wish to self-identify as someone who thinks the only was a guilty charge could occur is if the jury is afraid of reprisals to an acquittal. Or if you think that if it were’t for media and riots there would be no charges at all. For example.

They've obviously made up their minds, and prefer not to let facts or nuances interfere.

Which would, by exactly the same token, prompt me to ask, “what evidence convinces you so completely?” Unless they already stated their evidence as part of their post, in which case my curiosity does not require any further questions.

 

[Rhea]

The key question is whether Chauvin's holding of Floyd, whether in accordance with procedure or not, was the cause of Floyd's death. The knee on the neck would imply death by asphyxiation. But the criminal complaint expressly states that Floyd's autopsy "revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation. Mr. Floyd had underlying health conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease." We also know from the autopsy that he had OD levels of drugs in his system. The medical examiner concluded he died of cardiopulmonary arrest. If not for all the media and riots, it's hard to imagine there'd be criminal charges at all.

And yet...

No, autopsy doesn’t say George Floyd died of overdose

IF YOUR TIME IS SHORT
Two autopsy reports said the manner of George Floyd’s death was a homicide. Neither said the cause of his death was a fentanyl overdose.

The Hennepin County medical examiner found fentanyl in Floyd’s system, but the autopsy said the cause of his death was “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law-enforcement subdual restraint, and neck compression.”

Experts told the Washington Post they did not believe Floyd died from the fentanyl.

Because if you don’t selective edit the criminal complaint link,

The Hennepin County Medical Examiner (ME) conducted Mr. Floyd's autopsy on May 26 , 2020. The full report of the ME is pending but the ME has made the following preliminary findings. The autopsy revealed
no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation. Mr. Floyd had underlying health conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease. The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police , his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death .

In other words, without the police effect, it would not have happened. And also, you need to read the final report and not rely solely on a quote-mine of the preliminary report.

 

[Toni]

It was not acceptable in Minneapolis in that situation. See https://kstp.com/news/police-training-expert-speak-on-fatal-minneapolis-incident-may-26-2020/5741911/
Masson trained Minneapolis police officers until 2016.

The key question is whether Chauvin's holding of Floyd, whether in accordance with procedure or not, was the cause of Floyd's death. The knee on the neck would imply death by asphyxiation. But the criminal complaint expressly states that Floyd's autopsy "revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation. Mr. Floyd had underlying health conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease." We also know from the autopsy that he had OD levels of drugs in his system. The medical examiner concluded he died of cardiopulmonary arrest. If not for all the media and riots, it's hard to imagine there'd be criminal charges at all.

Not at all.

Someone with heart disease, such as Mr. Floyd, would be at risk of death if his airway was constricted, preventing adequate oxygen flow.

Lungs and heart work together. When the lungs are starved of oxygen, the heart works harder to move blood through the lungs where it can pick up oxygen and be circulated through the body. Just as asthma can trigger a fatal heart attack by restricting air flow through the lungs, so can anything else that suppresses air flow to the lungs. Coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease increase the risk of death in such circumstances.

 

[Trausti]

The key question is whether Chauvin's holding of Floyd, whether in accordance with procedure or not, was the cause of Floyd's death. The knee on the neck would imply death by asphyxiation. But the criminal complaint expressly states that Floyd's autopsy "revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation. Mr. Floyd had underlying health conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease." We also know from the autopsy that he had OD levels of drugs in his system. The medical examiner concluded he died of cardiopulmonary arrest. If not for all the media and riots, it's hard to imagine there'd be criminal charges at all.

And yet...

No, autopsy doesn’t say George Floyd died of overdose

IF YOUR TIME IS SHORT
Two autopsy reports said the manner of George Floyd’s death was a homicide. Neither said the cause of his death was a fentanyl overdose.

The Hennepin County medical examiner found fentanyl in Floyd’s system, but the autopsy said the cause of his death was “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law-enforcement subdual restraint, and neck compression.”

Experts told the Washington Post they did not believe Floyd died from the fentanyl.

If you read the criminal complaint, it states the medical examiner determined intoxicants in his system “likely” contributed to Floyd’s death.

 

[Rhea]

If you read the criminal complaint, it states the medical examiner determined intoxicants in his system “likely” contributed to Floyd’s death.

I read it. It says that it is a PRELIMINARY FINDING, and that is ALSO INCLUDES as likely cause of death, the restraint by police.

You are use a quote-mined preliminary finding on which to rest your case, when later full findings are available.

Now, what would cause you to choose that as your ‘evidence”?

 

[laughing dog]

It was not acceptable in Minneapolis in that situation. See https://kstp.com/news/police-training-expert-speak-on-fatal-minneapolis-incident-may-26-2020/5741911/
Masson trained Minneapolis police officers until 2016.

The key question is whether Chauvin's holding of Floyd, whether in accordance with procedure or not, was the cause of Floyd's death.

Not according to Minnesota law

609.205 MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.

A person who causes the death of another by any of the following means is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both:

(1) by the person's culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another;

(https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.205)
or guidelines

But prosecutors don't have to prove that Chauvin's actions alone caused Floyd's death, according to Minnesota's guidelines for jury instructions in criminal cases. According to the state and the defense's proposed jury instructions, "  'To cause' means to be a substantial causal factor in causing the death. … The fact that other causes contribute to the death does not relieve the defendant of criminal liability." (https://www.startribune.com/cause-of-death-at-issue-in-derek-chauvin-trial/600039728/)

The knee on the neck would imply death by asphyxiation. But the criminal complaint expressly states that Floyd's autopsy "revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation. Mr. Floyd had underlying health conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease."

It is not that simple. In this news report (https://www.startribune.com/cause-of-death-at-issue-in-derek-chauvin-trial/600039728/)

"Anytime the neck is interfered with, I think the first thing people see or think is that your breathing is being interfered with, and that can be true," said Dr. David Penning, an assistant professor of biology at Missouri Southern State University. "But you do have big important veins and arteries [in the neck], and those also are susceptible to those same forces or pressure … ," he said.

Penning and cardiologists Dr. Geoffrey Barnes, an assistant professor at the University of Michigan, and Dr. Jonathan Marmur, a professor and chief of cardiology at the State University of New York Downstate Health Sciences University, spoke generally about the relationship between the cardiovascular and respiratory systems. They did not interpret the findings of Floyd's autopsy or determine his cause of death. "Breathing difficulties must be taken with the utmost seriousness …," Marmur said. "Untreated respiratory arrest will result in cardiac arrest and death."

We also know from the autopsy that he had OD levels of drugs in his system.

Not really -

So how much fentanyl was in George Floyd’s system?

His blood was drawn immediately after death at Hennepin County Medical Center. The official autopsy report shows a concentration of 11 nanograms per milliliter.

How much is that?

Handwritten notes taken when the Medical Examiner briefed prosecutors on his findings suggest it was very high – but not necessarily fatal.

“If he were found dead at home alone and no other apparent causes, this could be acceptable to call an O.D. [Over Dose],” the notes say.

“Deaths have been certified with levels of 3,” the notes indicate. “But I am not saying this killed him.”

How could a potentially fatal dose of fentanyl not affect George Floyd in the same way?

Experts point to the possibility that people like Floyd, who have struggled with opioid addiction, build up a tolerance for the drugs.

(https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/evidence-details-fentanyl-levels-george-floyds-body/89-70cf8552-1810-4462-a726-077b897e7378)

The medical examiner concluded he died of cardiopulmonary arrest.

Which does not mean that asphyxiation did not contribute to his heart attack.

If not for all the media and riots, it's hard to imagine there'd be criminal charges at all.

It is not hard to imagine if there were not multiple independent witnesses and video. Unfortunately for Mr. Chauvin, there are witnesses and video, so it is not hard to imagine at all.

 

[Trausti]

It was not acceptable in Minneapolis in that situation. See https://kstp.com/news/police-training-expert-speak-on-fatal-minneapolis-incident-may-26-2020/5741911/
Masson trained Minneapolis police officers until 2016.

The key question is whether Chauvin's holding of Floyd, whether in accordance with procedure or not, was the cause of Floyd's death. The knee on the neck would imply death by asphyxiation. But the criminal complaint expressly states that Floyd's autopsy "revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation. Mr. Floyd had underlying health conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease." We also know from the autopsy that he had OD levels of drugs in his system. The medical examiner concluded he died of cardiopulmonary arrest. If not for all the media and riots, it's hard to imagine there'd be criminal charges at all.

Not at all.

Someone with heart disease, such as Mr. Floyd, would be at risk of death if his airway was constricted, preventing adequate oxygen flow.

Lungs and heart work together. When the lungs are starved of oxygen, the heart works harder to move blood through the lungs where it can pick up oxygen and be circulated through the body. Just as asthma can trigger a fatal heart attack by restricting air flow through the lungs, so can anything else that suppresses air flow to the lungs. Coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease increase the risk of death in such circumstances.

But there’s no physical evidence of asphyxiation. The Occam’s razor approach is that Floyd’s various morbidities with his drug use caused tachycardia. The excited delirium of being arrested put him over.

 

[Rhea]

Not at all.

Someone with heart disease, such as Mr. Floyd, would be at risk of death if his airway was constricted, preventing adequate oxygen flow.

Lungs and heart work together. When the lungs are starved of oxygen, the heart works harder to move blood through the lungs where it can pick up oxygen and be circulated through the body. Just as asthma can trigger a fatal heart attack by restricting air flow through the lungs, so can anything else that suppresses air flow to the lungs. Coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease increase the risk of death in such circumstances.

But there’s no physical evidence of asphyxiation. The Occam’s razor approach is that Floyd’s various morbidities with his drug use caused tachycardia. The excited delirium of being arrested put him over.

The MEs disagree with you. Maybe you should call them to get endorsements for your honorary degree and tell them all how they are wrong.

If I am weighing evidence and I have several MEs and several doctors saying one thing, and a lawyer from California saying another thing, I will need to choose who has the expertise I need to believe them. In the case of a cause of death report, I will go with the MEs. Perhaps, so will the jury.

 

[Trausti]

We also know from the autopsy that he had OD levels of drugs in his system.

Not really -

So how much fentanyl was in George Floyd’s system?

His blood was drawn immediately after death at Hennepin County Medical Center. The official autopsy report shows a concentration of 11 nanograms per milliliter.

How much is that?

Handwritten notes taken when the Medical Examiner briefed prosecutors on his findings suggest it was very high – but not necessarily fatal.

“If he were found dead at home alone and no other apparent causes, this could be acceptable to call an O.D. [Over Dose],” the notes say.

“Deaths have been certified with levels of 3,” the notes indicate. “But I am not saying this killed him.”

How could a potentially fatal dose of fentanyl not affect George Floyd in the same way?

Experts point to the possibility that people like Floyd, who have struggled with opioid addiction, build up a tolerance for the drugs.

(https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/evidence-details-fentanyl-levels-george-floyds-body/89-70cf8552-1810-4462-a726-077b897e7378)

Jebus. I’m not saying that 11 ng/ml of fentanyl killed him. But if found at his home like this it’s an obvious OD. And others OD at 3 ng/ml. Err, okay.

 

[laughing dog]

Not really -


(https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/evidence-details-fentanyl-levels-george-floyds-body/89-70cf8552-1810-4462-a726-077b897e7378)

Jebus. I’m not saying that 11 ng/ml of fentanyl killed him. But if found at his home like this it’s an obvious OD. And others OD at 3 ng/ml. Err, okay.

Mr. Floyd was not found at home. And what in "Experts point to the possibility that people like Floyd, who have struggled with opioid addiction, build up a tolerance for the drugs. " confused you?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If Trausti is correct, it'll be an easy homerun with the examiner on the bench.

 

[ZiprHead]

It was not acceptable in Minneapolis in that situation. See https://kstp.com/news/police-training-expert-speak-on-fatal-minneapolis-incident-may-26-2020/5741911/
Masson trained Minneapolis police officers until 2016.

The key question is whether Chauvin's holding of Floyd, whether in accordance with procedure or not, was the cause of Floyd's death. The knee on the neck would imply death by asphyxiation. But the criminal complaint expressly states that Floyd's autopsy "revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation. Mr. Floyd had underlying health conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease." We also know from the autopsy that he had OD levels of drugs in his system. The medical examiner concluded he died of cardiopulmonary arrest. If not for all the media and riots, it's hard to imagine there'd be criminal charges at all.

How Did George Floyd Die? Here’s What We Know
A private autopsy commissioned by the family concluded that his death was a homicide, brought about by compression of his neck and back by Minneapolis police officers.

The cause of death, according to the private autopsy, was mechanical asphyxia and the manner of death was homicide.

Shortly after the family’s autopsy findings were announced, the Hennepin County medical examiner released its own findings, also concluding that the manner of death was homicide. The county attributed the cause of death to “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.”

In other words, Mr. Floyd’s heart stopped beating and his lungs stopped taking in air while he was being restrained by law enforcement. The one-page summary also noted that Mr. Floyd was intoxicated with fentanyl and had recently used methamphetamines.

The criminal complaint said that the autopsy “revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation.” Mr. Floyd, the complaint said, had underlying health conditions, including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease.

So the complaint itself is downplaying the county medical examiner's findings.

 

[Trausti]

How Did George Floyd Die? Here’s What We Know
A private autopsy commissioned by the family concluded that his death was a homicide, brought about by compression of his neck and back by Minneapolis police officers.

The cause of death, according to the private autopsy, was mechanical asphyxia and the manner of death was homicide.

Shortly after the family’s autopsy findings were announced, the Hennepin County medical examiner released its own findings, also concluding that the manner of death was homicide. The county attributed the cause of death to “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.”

In other words, Mr. Floyd’s heart stopped beating and his lungs stopped taking in air while he was being restrained by law enforcement. The one-page summary also noted that Mr. Floyd was intoxicated with fentanyl and had recently used methamphetamines.

The criminal complaint said that the autopsy “revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation.” Mr. Floyd, the complaint said, had underlying health conditions, including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease.

So the complaint itself is downplaying the county medical examiner's findings.

The complaint is filed by the prosecution. The private autopsy is irrelevant to the criminal case.

 

[Gospel]

Yeah yeah, scream it from the mountain tops. Let's say George Floyd died as a result of his health condition. Are 3 minutes of kneeling on the neck of an unresponsive person still cool with yall?

Edit: Wait three minutes after reading this to reply, please.

 

[ZiprHead]

How Did George Floyd Die? Here’s What We Know
A private autopsy commissioned by the family concluded that his death was a homicide, brought about by compression of his neck and back by Minneapolis police officers.

The cause of death, according to the private autopsy, was mechanical asphyxia and the manner of death was homicide.

Shortly after the family’s autopsy findings were announced, the Hennepin County medical examiner released its own findings, also concluding that the manner of death was homicide. The county attributed the cause of death to “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.”

In other words, Mr. Floyd’s heart stopped beating and his lungs stopped taking in air while he was being restrained by law enforcement. The one-page summary also noted that Mr. Floyd was intoxicated with fentanyl and had recently used methamphetamines.

The criminal complaint said that the autopsy “revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation.” Mr. Floyd, the complaint said, had underlying health conditions, including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease.

So the complaint itself is downplaying the county medical examiner's findings.

The complaint is filed by the prosecution. The private autopsy is irrelevant to the criminal case.

You might want to try reading the first bolded quote again.