Would You Choose to Live in Heaven?

[Lion IRC]

I think you're making a fundamental category error.
Free will can exist independently of freedom to carry out that will.
Similarly, actions can be involuntary - against ones WILL.

 

[Lion IRC]

Would I be free to kill someone that I don't like?

I can't do that in this world, because doing so comes with severe long-term consequences. Will heaven provide me with more freedom than what I have on Earth?

Question for theologians or professional bullshitters (and/or?)...
Can the inhabitants of heaven be murdered?

Who in heaven would want to murder anyone?

 

[skepticalbip]

Would I be free to kill someone that I don't like?

I can't do that in this world, because doing so comes with severe long-term consequences. Will heaven provide me with more freedom than what I have on Earth?

Question for theologians or professional bullshitters (and/or?)...
Can the inhabitants of heaven be murdered?

Who in heaven would want to murder anyone?

Well, god himself (who I suppose inhabits heaven) is really into killing even to including genocide.

 

[ideologyhunter]

I could see if I was senile and one of my born-again cousins worked on me with standard Christian gaslighting. Then I'd get to heaven as a senile believer, but my new body would restore my brain, then I'd eventually meet my cousin from earth. She'd invite me to kneel with her and worship. But like I said, my brain would be restored to its old functionality, and one thing I'm not is a convincing actor. Eventually I'd be so frigging bored that I'd want to kill her for getting me into this mashed potato existence. I mean, I don't willingly sit through any church function on earth -- a funeral service, a few years ago, and it was agony listening to the pastor's bullshit. Heaven? Unending contemplation of the Genesis/Exodus/Numbers god? Not hardly. I don't want to use her actual name, so let's go with Courtney. "Courtney, you nimrod. What are we doing here? What are you doing? Are you happy making Manson girl eyes at God all day? And there's no way out of this? I don't have my cd's up here! I'm going to have to go Wayne Brady on you -- I'm going to have to choke a bitch." I'm sure she'd be praying as I wrung her neck. Some things you do without considering the consequences.

 

[Rhea]

I think you're making a fundamental category error.
Free will can exist independently of freedom to carry out that will.

EXACTLY!!! That’s exactly what I said about your god. That he could have earth with “Free Will” and still make it that every rapist’s dick falls off. Every murderer asphyxiates after his crime. Every abusive parent turns bright blue.

EXACTLY right, Lion. A god could fix everything right here on earth. Today.

 

[DBT]

I think you're making a fundamental category error.
Free will can exist independently of freedom to carry out that will.
Similarly, actions can be involuntary - against ones WILL.

You haven't said what free will is or how free will is possible given that we don't choose our wants, needs, character, etc, which are formed in response to our genetic makeup and environment by the brain we are born with...a Wall Street Banker having a very different set of wants to a Kalahari Bushman, for example, but the same basic needs.

 

[DBT]

Would I be free to kill someone that I don't like?

I can't do that in this world, because doing so comes with severe long-term consequences. Will heaven provide me with more freedom than what I have on Earth?

Question for theologians or professional bullshitters (and/or?)...
Can the inhabitants of heaven be murdered?

Who in heaven would want to murder anyone?

Apart from God, Satan and a third of the host of heaven...if Christian theology is to be considered.

 

[Rhea]

Who in heaven would want to murder anyone?

Apart from God, Satan and a third of the host of heaven...if Christian theology is to be considered.

This is kind of an important point. I hope Lion addresses it.

 

[Rhea]

I hope Learner comes back. I really am pretty torqued at him for refusing to hold up his end of the conversation with his crazy refusal to describe heaven as he sees it for the sake of the question about heaven that he brought up.

 

[bilby]

I think you're making a fundamental category error.
Free will can exist independently of freedom to carry out that will.
Similarly, actions can be involuntary - against ones WILL.

I don't see anyone here making that error. I think you are hoping to attribute that error to others, in an attempt to avoid thinking too hard about what they are actually asking you.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I think it's a place for those who wouldn't like to kill someone.

so, not many Xians, huh?

Those guys can be pretty bloodthirsty. They keep excusing all the times god kills someone in the Books. They cheer at the scene where the Pharaoh's chariots get drowned.
They demand tge death sentence for abortionists, women who abort.
They're okay with the death penalty.
How many liked Ann's response to 9/11, "Invade their countries, kill their keaders, force them to become Christains!"
How mzny evangelicals say Trump should turn the other cheek, how many want all the democrats lined up and shot?

How many people alive today, Learner, do you think would get into that Heaven?
Where are thdy?

 

[Lion IRC]

Who in heaven would want to murder anyone?

Apart from God, Satan and a third of the host of heaven...if Christian theology is to be considered.

God? God wants to murder ppl in heaven? When? Where? Why? You're making that up.

satan? Show me where in Christian theology satan is in heaven with a desire to murder people.

A third of the host of heaven want to murder people? Where is that in Christian theology?

 

[Lion IRC]

I think you're making a fundamental category error.
Free will can exist independently of freedom to carry out that will.
Similarly, actions can be involuntary - against ones WILL.

You haven't said what free will is

You're kidding.
Free. Will.
Its two words.
Which one dont you understand?

or how free will is possible given that we don't choose our wants,

Deny the existence of free will if you like, but please don't claim that the definition of free will doesnt entail 'freedom' and isnt about volition/wants.

we don't choose our needs,

Needs are not wants. Were talking about volition not compulsion. Please don't change the subject.

 

[DBT]

You're kidding.
Free. Will.
Its two words.
Which one dont you understand?

Are you not aware of centuries of debate on free will? Or that there are several definitions of the term? Libertarian, compatIbalist, etc. No inkling, doesn't ring a bell?

You don't understand the problems related to the term? That it is the information condition of a brain that forms and generates will milliseconds prior to conscious representation? That what you decide and what you do is a cognitive brain process?

Deny the existence of free will if you like, but please don't claim that the definition of free will doesnt entail 'freedom' and isnt about volition/wants.

Questioning and denying are two different things. The term 'free will' is questionable on the grounds of brain function and condition.

Needs are not wants. Were talking about volition not compulsion. Please don't change the subject.

Needs produce wants. A wide range of wants may emerge from needs, tastes, preferences, etc.

 

[DBT]

Who in heaven would want to murder anyone?

Apart from God, Satan and a third of the host of heaven...if Christian theology is to be considered.

God? God wants to murder ppl in heaven? When? Where? Why? You're making that up.

satan? Show me where in Christian theology satan is in heaven with a desire to murder people.

A third of the host of heaven want to murder people? Where is that in Christian theology?

The point was that God is willing to kill. Location is irrelevant. The revolt in heaven, according to Christian theology, implies discord in heaven, resentment, jealousy, etc, which lead to revolt. Your claim was that nobody would want to do these things. Yet if there is discord, jealousy and discord in heaven, there can be the desire to kill, but no means with which to kill, ie, everyone is immortal.

Your claim was related to want, not means.

 

[southernhybrid]

When I left my childhood beliefs behind because they no longer made any sense to me, I was told by my Christian friends that my problem was that I was thinking too much. I think there may be some truth in that. If you seriously think of what you've been told to believe with an open mind, the cognitive dissonance becomes overwhelming and it's impossible or close to impossible to maintain such beliefs. If you seriously think about the concept of an afterlife, it gets pretty difficult to accept it, unless you are able to toss all of your doubts away and keep on pretending that heaven exists.

How in the world can our we exist after our meat bodies and brains die? Our brains control everything that we do, regardless if one believes we have free will or not, it's all about the neurons and neurotransmitters, and how those chemicals are transmitted between neurons via axions and dendrites. It's a bit difficult to understand and we certainly don't have all the answers, but it's not magic. If you want to make it simple, we can just say that we stardust. When we die, what makes up our bodies goes back to the basic elements. Isn't that awesome enough?

But, back to the concept of the Christian heaven. I've known many dog loving Christians who have now included the rainbow bridge in there beliefs. After all, how can we be happy in a place without our beloved dogs and cats. I wouldn't be happy without a dog companion at my side. So, how do we solve this problem? We invent the rainbow bridge, a bridge where our little pets can cross over into the afterlife with us. Okay. That's a sweet fairytale if you don't give it too much thought, but I don't understand how anyone can believe in it literally. At the same time, how can anyone think that our meat bodies and all those cool neurotransmitters somehow reinvent themselves into something else? It's all an imaginative creation, a denial of death, a wish to be able to reunite with our loved ones and in modern times that included our pets.

So, no matter how we define heaven, the only heaven is the one that we create here on earth, assuming that our lives are satisfying enough to be able to do that. Obviously, there is much suffering in the world, so those of us who feel as if we have created our personal heaven on earth are likely to be in the minority, and are fortunate to have been the receivers of positive genetic and environmental influences. To be able to be happy while also being able to detach oneself from the horrors of the world is sort of like living a heavenly existence. But sadly, that heaven will fall apart one day. It may be due to the loss of health or the loss of one's mate, but as the saying goes,"all good things must come to an end" and that goes for a happy existence as well. For, I'm convinced that this life is the only one we have so we should at least try to make the best of it, assuming we have what it takes to do that. Not everyone has been blessed in that department, not due to some supernatural forces, but due to what genetics and influences have given them.

So, my advice is to be a good person to the best of your ability and stop pretending that an afterlife is going to be the perfect place. Just do the best you can to enjoy this life. Sadly, as I've already said, not everyone will be able to do that, as we are all victims or benefactors of what life has given us.

 

[ideologyhunter]

That's a good piece. My thoughts as I read it:
Paragraph 1 -- You were "thinking too much." There's a ridiculous hard-right book from the 80s called Child Abuse in the Classroom. Mrs. Schlafly wrote it. She carries on about how public schools are assaulting the faith of Christian students, and at one point she says that some parents she knows told her that their kids came home from school saying that "their heads hurt" from critical thinking sessions. I guess because critical thinking demands that you assess your own assumptions. It was my favorite moment in the book, because it was unselfconsciously ridiculous. What a crime, to ask Christian kids or any kids to look at the basis of what they believe.
Paragraph 2 -- The meat brain. Right. How can anyone watch a relative go through Alzheimers, the erasure of memory, knowledge, tasking ability, ultimately personality, and not know that consciousness has a physical basis? But somehow there's a soul that encapsulates all that. Next time a friend has died and someone says, "Well, now he knows the answer to the mystery", consider asking them how he can know anything if his brain is dead.
Paragraph 3 -- Dogs. Wish fulfillment. How can people utter this stuff and not realize how manipulative the heaven story is?
Paragraphs 4 and 5 -- Yes, if only more energy could go from 'the next life' to this life. I know Christians who are utterly passive and unpolitical, who assert that the system is rotten and hopeless, all politicians are crooks, all media figures are liars, things won't change, but "someday Jesus will take me home." It can be used as an excuse to do nothing.

 

[Learner]

Actually it seems impossible for anyone to give a substantive answer. Your "pig in a poke" quote (in an earlier post) was just some negations ("no suffering" et al)

"no suffering" et al is more than just some "technical speak negation". It's the impacting affect it has - when people DO understand the concept described emotionally / compassionately , i.e. Love, Happiness and Joy!!! The comparisons understood from the atrocities et al, which is Being the END OF those atrocities, experienced throughout ALL of mans history that is found to be emotionally detested.

Impossible details and description for example: the types of bricks, largest ever vegetable-pizza sizes in paradise is NOT such an issue.

and the assertion that loved ones and God would be there.

But is there a "there" there?

According to the bible.. (if your still discussing along the hypothetical sense of it). "God ain't real" is a different discussion, but hey no probs arguing on both lanes.

southernhybrid told about Baha'i mythology's "the most great peace" and it was just a series of negations: no wars, no racism, no sexism, no unhappiness, no hate, no disrespect. That's not details of what "the most great peace" is so it's not enough to judge the value of the place, let alone to judge if it's real.

In her post, the closest thing to a detail about the Christian heaven was "worship and sing god's praises 24/7".

It's all too vague to be substantial enough to judge as worth believing or not.

They both have an idea. Paradise or heaven is a Universal concept.. See top paragraph above.

They had a viewpoint on living in Heaven.

Yeah, they found that whatever vague tidbits of information there are don't suffice to make it even appealing, let alone support the case that it might be real.

So why is it that believers react to all the extreme vagueness so very differently? It's understandable if you wish you could go on existing forever and will see deceased loved ones again. But, how do you know if heaven's real without better details about it?

Try to understand the following point if you can: Without sufficient details there's no basis to judge if the idea's worth believing or not.

See the above top paragraph... universal concept easy to understand that relates to a fullfillment of love and compassion.

 

[Rhea]

I don’t get this. I honestly do not get why you are so scared to just describe the heaven you want t ask us whether we’d live in.

Can’t you pray about this or something? ASk for Jesus’ help in describing Heaven? If you’re sincere, I’ve heard he’ll give you what you want.


So far, all we have is this.

There's no more suffering pain, no death or disease, but theres abundance of various things that caters for every need e.g. no more hunger or thirst etc. in the paradise, and not to forget, also seeing your loved ones and above all ... God.

In what way is this different from a coma on a feeding tube?
*Is* it different?


ANSWER to your question: No I would not live in your vague, cagey, deceptive coma world. It describes something that could be truly horrific and you are not making me o anyone feel any more comfortable about it with your terrified fear of describing it.

 

[DBT]

God, as described in the bible, must value suffering, death, decay and destruction. Otherwise why create a world where these things are routine?