ALL LIVES MATTER

[ruby sparks]

What is appalling exactly?

I think it's the part where you seem to be saying it's not OK for police to murder black people and as long as they continue to do so, it's OK for black people to murder police. That's appalling.

No, it's not that, because she didn't say that. I personally find what she did say somewhat appalling, that's she's totally fine with people shouting that they hope two individual police officers who got shot, apparently in an instance of attempted cold-blooded murder, die of their injuries. How understandable or not that might be seen to be because of circumstances generally (and there will be disagreement about that) I do not think we should be effectively condoning that sort of thing in that way.

 

[Angry Floof]

What is appalling exactly?

I think it's the part where you seem to be saying it's not OK for police to murder black people and as long as they continue to do so, it's OK for black people to murder police. That's appalling.

No, it's not that, because she didn't say that. I personally find what she did say somewhat appalling, that's she's totally fine with people shouting that they hope two individual police officers who got shot, apparently in an instance of attempted cold-blooded murder, die of their injuries. How understandable or not that might be seen to be because of circumstances generally (and there will be disagreement about that) I do not think we should be effectively condoning that sort of thing in that way.

I don't condone it. I just don't care about black people saying shocking things while police murder them for sport.

 

[ruby sparks]

I don't condone it.

You regard the behaviour as acceptable. That's a form of condoning.

 

[Harry Bosch]

No, it's not that, because she didn't say that. I personally find what she did say somewhat appalling, that's she's totally fine with people shouting that they hope two individual police officers who got shot, apparently in an instance of attempted cold-blooded murder, die of their injuries. How understandable or not that might be seen to be because of circumstances generally (and there will be disagreement about that) I do not think we should be effectively condoning that sort of thing in that way.

I don't condone it. I just don't care about black people saying shocking things while police murder them for sport.

Do you have a link or some statistics that show that police shoot black people for sport? BTW: the vast majority of police never touch their gun while on duty let alone shoot. You've been watching too much TV!

 

[Angry Floof]

No, it's not that, because she didn't say that. I personally find what she did say somewhat appalling, that's she's totally fine with people shouting that they hope two individual police officers who got shot, apparently in an instance of attempted cold-blooded murder, die of their injuries. How understandable or not that might be seen to be because of circumstances generally (and there will be disagreement about that) I do not think we should be effectively condoning that sort of thing in that way.

I don't condone it. I just don't care about black people saying shocking things while police murder them for sport.

Do you have a link or some statistics that show that police shoot black people for sport? BTW: the vast majority of police never touch their gun while on duty let alone shoot. You've been watching too much TV!

You really need every single cop to murder a black person before you grasp that there is a massive problem with how police treat black people? That they do indeed harass, brutalize, and kill black people at an alarming rate that does not come close to how many unarmed white people they shoot or even bother to pull over on the highway. Blacks are targeted by police. There's plenty of good cops in the world, but obviously they are irrelevant to this issue. They either cower and do nothing or they get fired for speaking out or they retire and then maybe speak out. That good cops exist doesn't erase the glaring racism and brutality of police in the US.

 

[Angry Floof]

I don't condone it.

You regard the behaviour as acceptable. That's a form of condoning.

Oh, for fuck's sake. No, I'm not. I'm saying stop clutching the fucking pearls about shit that just distracts from the very real problem of police, with the power of badges and weapons and public support, harass, brutalize, and murder black people across the country and get away with it. "But some black people said mean fings to teh cops." I don't fucking care. Why are you so worried about hateful words coming from people who are targets of corrupt violent police? If you were their target, you'd probably be saying worse. You are just determined to put words in my mouth with your every response.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Do you have a link or some statistics that show that police shoot black people for sport? BTW: the vast majority of police never touch their gun while on duty let alone shoot. You've been watching too much TV!

You really need every single cop to murder a black person before you grasp that there is a massive problem with how police treat black people? That they do indeed harass, brutalize, and kill black people at an alarming rate that does not come close to how many unarmed white people they shoot or even bother to pull over on the highway. Blacks are targeted by police. There's plenty of good cops in the world, but obviously they are irrelevant to this issue. They either cower and do nothing or they get fired for speaking out or they retire and then maybe speak out. That good cops exist doesn't erase the glaring racism and brutality of police in the US.

This is where you and I greatly disagree. First off, I don't think that it's necessarily a black person problem. I think that people of darker skin are generally treated worse than those with lighter skin. I think that that people of darker skin for whatever reason are treated as potentially more dangerous, shifty, and etc. I'm very light skinned. But my brother is very dark skinned. Other than that we are same size, roughly the same age. We always joke that I get off easier than he. It's anecdotal. But he's treated differently than I. I will do some research on this to see if I'm correct.

Secondly, we disagree that it's only a police person problem. I think that all people and all professions harbor some of these tendencies. I think that there is biased in schools, in hospitals, in banks, in the military, at restaurants, and in every institution. I don't think that police are special. Police tend to be from more working families as their pay is low and a degree is not required.

But the above is what bothers me about your line of argument. By singling out police officer treatment of black people only you are missing the wider problem. Secondly, your solution, defunding (as you mean it) takes resources away from officers. But it does nothing to correct their behavior. It will not make black people safe. I'd argue that it will make them less safe. And finally, it only applies a temporary band aide over a much wider problem that won't get corrected just by "defunding".

With respect, I think that attacking the police makes for a convenient target to make us feel good, but misses the wider problem. My opinion.

 

[ruby sparks]

Why are you so worried about hateful words coming from people who are targets of corrupt violent police?

How worried I am is not the issue, but unlike you, I would not say that such words are of no concern in the slightest. Imo, you are going way overboard with the 'cops shooting blacks for sport makes it ok' thing. That there are worse things happening (and I'm not sure how many if any police actually kill for sport) is essentially whataboutism, and a case of two wrongs not making a right.

Finally, I find it a bit odd that you have seemed far more bothered that some people here (quite reasonably imo) object to those words being said after this shooting than you were about explicitly condemning the shooting itself. Unusual priorities, imo.

I find your attitude distasteful and your remarks unhelpful. You disagree. Let's leave it at that.

 

[Worldtraveller]

Why are you so worried about hateful words coming from people who are targets of corrupt violent police?

Unlike you, I would not condone such words, that's all.

Would you like some pearls to clutch? They're over on the fainting couch.

Fuck that. I will go ahead and actually condone retaliation before I get upset about people being upset because they are systematically killed by an unjust police and court system.

And to address Harry's dumbass point about racism in general, most professions don't have the opportunity to kill people on their job and face almost no retribution.

 

[Angry Floof]

Why are you so worried about hateful words coming from people who are targets of corrupt violent police?

How worried I am is not the issue, but unlike you, I would not say that such words are of no concern in the slightest. Imo, you are going way overboard with the 'cops shooting blacks for sport makes it ok' thing. That there are worse things happening (and I'm not sure how many if any police actually kill for sport) is essentially whataboutism, and a case of two wrongs not making a right.

Finally, I find it a bit odd that you have seemed far more bothered that some people here (quite reasonably imo) object to those words being said after this shooting than you were about explicitly condemning the shooting itself. Unusual priorities, imo.

I find your attitude distasteful and your remarks unhelpful. You disagree. Let's leave it at that.

Got it. You condone police brutality.

 

[ruby sparks]

Got it. You condone police brutality.

No, because I am not saying police brutality does not concern me in the slightest. If I was, you could reasonably say I was essentially condoning it, yes.

 

[Angry Floof]

Got it. You condone police brutality.

No, because I am not saying police brutality does not concern me in the slightest. If I was, you could, yes, say I was essentially condoning it.

By focusing on the words of brutalized people, you condone the state sanctioned violence against them. At the very least, you equate brutalized people's ugly comments with murder.

 

[ruby sparks]

At the very least, you equate brutalized people's ugly comments with murder.

No I don't equate them at all. Ugly comments are obviously much less of an issue than murder, and on this forum you will have seen me condemning police actions many times. That doesn't mean I would say that death-wish slogans are of no concern in the slightest, especially in response to this attempted brutal murder.

And I definitely would not tar all police officers with the same brush.

 

[Angry Floof]

At the very least, you equate brutalized people's ugly comments with murder.

No I don't equalise them at all. Ugly comments are obviously much less of an issue than murder, and on this forum you will have seen me condemning police actions many times. That doesn't mean I would say that death-wish slogans are of no concern in the slightest, especially in response to this attempted brutal murder.

And I definitely would not tar all police officers with the same brush.

I find your pearl clutching and equivocation distasteful, appalling even, and not at all helpful to the very real human rights violations by law enforcement across the country.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, it's not that, because she didn't say that. I personally find what she did say somewhat appalling, that's she's totally fine with people shouting that they hope two individual police officers who got shot, apparently in an instance of attempted cold-blooded murder, die of their injuries. How understandable or not that might be seen to be because of circumstances generally (and there will be disagreement about that) I do not think we should be effectively condoning that sort of thing in that way.

I don't condone it. I just don't care about black people saying shocking things while police murder them for sport.

Do you have a link or some statistics that show that police shoot black people for sport? BTW: the vast majority of police never touch their gun while on duty let alone shoot. You've been watching too much TV!

Disagree on touch--felony stops, clearing a building with a suspect inside or thought to be inside.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Do you have a link or some statistics that show that police shoot black people for sport? BTW: the vast majority of police never touch their gun while on duty let alone shoot. You've been watching too much TV!

You really need every single cop to murder a black person before you grasp that there is a massive problem with how police treat black people? That they do indeed harass, brutalize, and kill black people at an alarming rate that does not come close to how many unarmed white people they shoot or even bother to pull over on the highway. Blacks are targeted by police. There's plenty of good cops in the world, but obviously they are irrelevant to this issue. They either cower and do nothing or they get fired for speaking out or they retire and then maybe speak out. That good cops exist doesn't erase the glaring racism and brutality of police in the US.

You do your position an injustice when you keep claiming they kill black people unreasonably. The data clearly shows they don't. When you keep claiming this obviously false point you distract from the actual problem--but the problem is mostly mistreatment of criminals regardless of race.

 

[Angry Floof]

Do you have a link or some statistics that show that police shoot black people for sport? BTW: the vast majority of police never touch their gun while on duty let alone shoot. You've been watching too much TV!

You really need every single cop to murder a black person before you grasp that there is a massive problem with how police treat black people? That they do indeed harass, brutalize, and kill black people at an alarming rate that does not come close to how many unarmed white people they shoot or even bother to pull over on the highway. Blacks are targeted by police. There's plenty of good cops in the world, but obviously they are irrelevant to this issue. They either cower and do nothing or they get fired for speaking out or they retire and then maybe speak out. That good cops exist doesn't erase the glaring racism and brutality of police in the US.

You do your position an injustice when you keep claiming they kill black people unreasonably. The data clearly shows they don't. When you keep claiming this obviously false point you distract from the actual problem--but the problem is mostly mistreatment of criminals regardless of race.

They don't kill black people unreasonably? WTF is wrong with you? OK, Loren, whatever you say from over there in whitewashed lalaland.

 

[bigfield]

You do your position an injustice when you keep claiming they kill black people unreasonably. The data clearly shows they don't. When you keep claiming this obviously false point you distract from the actual problem--but the problem is mostly mistreatment of criminals regardless of race.

I like how Loren frequently refers to "data", "figures", "numbers" etc. But never actually cites a source. Like we're all supposed to take his word for it that whatever this "data" is, it exists and his interpretation of it is accurate. (I'm pretty sure that whenever Loren says "when you control for" he really means "when I generalise this thing that happened when I was at the supermarket with my wife".)

Loren's just some guy fixated on a classical liberal narrative that says that everyone's on a level playing field, and these silly claims he makes every damn day are just a lame bluff.

 

[Worldtraveller]

You do your position an injustice when you keep claiming they kill black people unreasonably. The data clearly shows they don't. When you keep claiming this obviously false point you distract from the actual problem--but the problem is mostly mistreatment of criminals regardless of race.

I like how Loren frequently refers to "data", "figures", "numbers" etc. But never actually cites a source. Like we're all supposed to take his word for it that whatever this "data" is, it exists and his interpretation of it is accurate. (I'm pretty sure that whenever Loren says "when you control for" he really means "when I generalise this thing that happened when I was at the supermarket with my wife".)

Loren's just some guy fixated on a classical liberal narrative that says that everyone's on a level playing field, and these silly claims he makes every damn day are just a lame bluff.

He doesn't need to show data. Every time, and I mean EVERY, when the data is presented, he will claim that the study 'didn't take into effect' some bullshit made up by him and dismiss it. So that's his 'evidence'.

 

[Gospel]

I think an All lives matter movement that lived up to it's name had the potential to be very effective in making a change. Too often these days do people find a reason to take an us verse them approach either as a scapegoat or means to mask bigotry. If an all lives matter movement can show that it seeks justice for those unjustly killed, whether it's a police officer or civilian (of all races) it will be difficult for anyone from either side of the issue to say it doesn't speak to/for them. This would serve to unify rather than divide people. Regrettably that's not the case and it is a complete waste of an opportunity since All Lives Matter hasn't done a damn thing for anyone.