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Hillary Clinton - Economicus Ignorissimus

We've been over this before. You submitted a link to an economics site which defined "demand." But evidently you didn't read the definition very carefully because the site YOU referred to said the demand is a product or service. So go find that site, and you'll have the reference you are seeking.
Again you are mistaken. That did not happen. It is up to you to substantiate your claims, not me.
Your desire for mushrooms is not demand. Demand is whatever you have of value that can be exchanged for the mushrooms you desire. If desire were demand, there would never be a shortage, and we would have not demand-side theories to deal with.
Utter nonsense. Demand is the relationship between the amount someone(s) wish to purchase and the price. It does not require exchange. See http://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/demand.asp or  Demand.
 
Why Economic Demand is a Product or Service

Some people seem to be confused by my claim that in economics the term "demand" is a product or service. In light of the way that economics is taught in schools these days this is understandable, but I would contend that logic dictates that this term does, indeed, refer to a product or service and does not apply, as seems to be the assumption of most people, merely to the medium exchange.

I have already given an example of this. If I am a farmer and I have three chickens and I exchange those chickens with my neighbor for a goat, which is the supply and which is the demand? It depends entirely on the point of view of the person in the exchange. For me, demand is what I have available to exchange for what I desire. I desire a goat. For me that is the supply that I am seeking. My demand, therefore, is the three chickens that I am willing and able to part with to acquire the goat. But for my neighbor, the situation is reversed. His demand is the goat, and his supply is the three chickens.

Now let us introduce money into the transaction. My neighbor does not have a goat, but he is willing to give me a gold coin in exchange for the chickens. I know that I can go to the village market and acquire a goat for the gold coin so I make the deal. Thus far I have exchanged one commodity, the chickens, for another commodity, the gold coin. I now take the coin to the market and acquire a goat. I submit that it is aburd to claim that the gold coin, being a currency, represents demand where the chickens did not. I agree that the coin, the medium of exchange, represents demand, but it doesn't do so in any way that the chickens did not also represent demand.

Now most people will agree that the gold coin is also a commodity and that is why people accept it as a medium of exchange. Even though they have little use for the gold itself, they know that someone, somewhere, does want it and so it has value in an exchange. But gold is a commodity and therefore derives its value from that fact. It is useful to someone, somewhere. And being scarce, it has a relatively high value for its weight. In a fiat money system, the medium of exchange has no value it itself. It merely represents a value. Somewhere, somebody wants it. Typically that somebody is the government which declares its fiat money to be acceptable as legal tender in the settlement of debts in a court of law and/or also accepts these representations as fulfillment of a tax obligation.

Fiat money is a contract rather than a commodity. It is essentially an IOU that is generally accepted within the community because of its usefulness in payment of taxes and as legal tender. How does this change the status of products or services in an exchange? Not at all. The fiat money is useful in an exchange because, like gold, it represents a product or service that I desire not because it has any value in itself that the seller himself is anxious to acquire.

If, however, I seek to introduce more money into the system that does not represent a product or service, as governments often do through the printing press or, more often, through manipulation of the banking system; I have not introduced any new products or services, and if I have not introduced any new products or services, I have not increased demand. What I have done is to reduce the value of the existing currency. I have cheated on the contract.

This is why I contend that the "demand-side" economic theories (basically Keynesianism and Monetarism) are doomed to fail. The problem is that the approaches they recommend do not actually increase demand because demand is a product or service. It is not a medium of exchange. Such policies may succeed up to a point in that they allow producers to unload excess inventory without reducing prices at the onset of a recession, and this is good for corporate profits. But the ultimate effect of this is merely to delay the necessary re-structuring of those enterprises and of the economy as a whole, and this delay resuts in an even greater downturn in the future.

The result of this, in turn, is the destruction of capital. As the necessary reforms are delayed the enterprise continues to advance in the wrong direction and the inefficiencies mount up. So when the next downturn hits, an enterprise that might have survived a mild retrenchment early on now faces bankruptcy. And this problem is magnified many times over within the banking system because the finances there are so highly leveraged. If banks are suffering from solvency problems, a $10,000 loss can become a $100,000 loss or even a million dollar loss because of all the leveraged investments. This is the situation that the nation faces today.

So the demand-side approaches don't merely fail to solve the problem, they make matters worse. The more they delay the required restructuring, the more capital becomes destroyed, and we have to start over again at a lower level than we were at when the downturn began.

I hope this clarifies the point that I am making, and I also hope it clarifies why this distinction is significant. If demand is not a product or service, what is it? If it is a medium of exchange, what is it about that function that makes it demand? Are we to assume that a direct exchange that does not involve a medium is lacking in supply and demand altogether? I don't think these questions can be answered intelligibly without acknowledging that demand is a product or service, but I invite the posters here to try.
 
Again you are mistaken. That did not happen. It is up to you to substantiate your claims, not me.
Your desire for mushrooms is not demand. Demand is whatever you have of value that can be exchanged for the mushrooms you desire. If desire were demand, there would never be a shortage, and we would have not demand-side theories to deal with.
Utter nonsense. Demand is the relationship between the amount someone(s) wish to purchase and the price. It does not require exchange. See http://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/demand.asp or  Demand.

My, my, how easily we forget our faux pas'. Frankly, your thinking on this subject is so fuzzy headed that I don't think I need to take the trouble to look up that post.

I contend that mainstream thinking on this subject is also fuzzy headed and so you propose to refute my point by referencing a fuzzy headed, mainstream site. Since I've already contended that mainstream economic education is illogical, your reference is off-point entirely.

An economic principle that describes a consumer's desire and willingness to pay a price for a specific good or service. Holding all other factors constant, the price of a good or service increases as its demand increases and vice versa.

So the above "definition" claims that demand is both your desire and your willingness to pay. How are you paying? The definition does not address that at all. If I try to buy a new car with monopoly money, the seller is going to reject it. He is going to want other pieces of paper. But why does he accept those. Is he fond of pictures of dead presidents?

Even worse, the claim here is that demand is both a desire and a willingness to pay, which presumably is a willingness to part with someone of some value. But if I am willing to part with it, how is it desire? No. Demand is not desire. What I desire is the supply. What I desire is what I DON'T have. So this mainstream definition that you offer here simply doesn't make any sense.
 
Why Economic Demand is a Product or Service

Some people seem to be confused by my claim...

No one is confused by your claims. We are simply pointing out that you are wrong.

That entire wall of text you wrote did not contain a single link to any reputable source to support your claim.

If you are going to continue to insist you are correct, you are going to have to support it with a reputable source.
 
Why Economic Demand is a Product or Service

Some people seem to be confused by my claim...

No one is confused by your claims. We are simply pointing out that you are wrong.

That entire wall of text you wrote did not contain a single link to any reputable source to support your claim.

If you are going to continue to insist you are correct, you are going to have to support it with a reputable source.

You're making and argument from authority or, more correctly in this case, you are making an argument from the lack of authority. I am making an argument from logic. Logic trumps authority any day of the week. Your failure even to attempt a refutation of my claim and to turn to the question of authority clearly suggests that you are unable to refute my analysis.

I did not invite posters here to offer expert testimony against my position. I invited them to refute it. It seems clear that you are unable respond to the questions I asked at the end. It also seems clear that you have no intention of thinking for yourself since you have clearly declined the opportunity. Galileo you are not!

This doesn't mean I can't site authority on this. It is the standard view in Austrian theory so there are many Austrian economists that I could cite, but I'm also confident that there are mainstream economists who would agree with this. It isn't any way-out position. Unfortunately, the way economics is taught, the distinction is simply glossed over.
 
No one is confused by your claims. We are simply pointing out that you are wrong.

That entire wall of text you wrote did not contain a single link to any reputable source to support your claim.

If you are going to continue to insist you are correct, you are going to have to support it with a reputable source.

You're making and argument from authority... I am making an argument from logic.

I'm not making any sort of argument. I am pointing out that your claims are utterly false, utterly unsupported & utterly illogical. Now you can either attempt to support your claims with credible sources, or your failure to do so will prove that your claims are complete nonsense.

Here is your claim:

boneyard bill said:
Demand is created by workers making things. Demand is a product or service.

Now support it with credible sources.
 
You're making and argument from authority... I am making an argument from logic.

I'm not making any sort of argument. I am pointing out that your claims are utterly false, utterly unsupported & utterly illogical. Now you can either attempt to support your claims with credible sources, or your failure to do so will prove that your claims are complete nonsense.

Here is your claim:

boneyard bill said:
Demand is created by workers making things. Demand is a product or service.

Now support it with credible sources.

Credible sources is a demand for authority. So you're claiming that we must rely upon others to decide this issue instead of reasoning it out for ourselves. If my claims are illogical, you should be able to refute them without referencing authority at all. Do you understand the difference between a logical argument and an empirical one?
 
I'm not making any sort of argument. I am pointing out that your claims are utterly false, utterly unsupported & utterly illogical. Now you can either attempt to support your claims with credible sources, or your failure to do so will prove that your claims are complete nonsense.

Here is your claim:

boneyard bill said:
Demand is created by workers making things. Demand is a product or service.

Now support it with credible sources.

Credible sources is a demand for authority.
Not necessarily. You are the only one claiming that demand is a product or a service. Your argument does not appear to have a basis in logic or fact. Perhaps someone else's presentation of the argument might be persuasive.
 
Do you understand the difference between a logical argument and an empirical one?

Do you understand the difference between a supported argument vs a bunch of bullshit you've pulled out of your ass?

You don't get to pretend now that you are making some sort of "logical" argument because a few posts up you tried to use this same type of false bravado and faux-condescension to bluff your way out when Laughing Dog also wanted you to support your claim. You insisted that he himself had posted a source that defined "demand" the same way you did months ago, except then you refused to provide that source.

In any case, it is clear you aren't going to support your incredibly ignorant claim that "Demand is created by workers making things. Demand is a product or service" so there is no point in continuing this exchange. Bye bye.
 
Do you understand the difference between a logical argument and an empirical one?

Do you understand the difference between a supported argument vs a bunch of bullshit you've pulled out of your ass?

You don't get to pretend now that you are making some sort of "logical" argument because a few posts up you tried to use this same type of false bravado and faux-condescension to bluff your way out when Laughing Dog also wanted you to support your claim. You insisted that he himself had posted a source that defined "demand" the same way you did months ago, except then you refused to provide that source.

In any case, it is clear you aren't going to support your incredibly ignorant claim that "Demand is created by workers making things. Demand is a product or service" so there is no point in continuing this exchange. Bye bye.

It is clear that you don't have a logical refutation of my argument in spite of your claim that it is illogical.

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I'm not making any sort of argument. I am pointing out that your claims are utterly false, utterly unsupported & utterly illogical. Now you can either attempt to support your claims with credible sources, or your failure to do so will prove that your claims are complete nonsense.

Here is your claim:

boneyard bill said:
Demand is created by workers making things. Demand is a product or service.

Now support it with credible sources.

Credible sources is a demand for authority.
Not necessarily. You are the only one claiming that demand is a product or a service. Your argument does not appear to have a basis in logic or fact. Perhaps someone else's presentation of the argument might be persuasive.

If my argument is not supported by logic, you should be able to tear it apart logically yourself. But apparently you're afraid to try.
 
Do you understand the difference between a supported argument vs a bunch of bullshit you've pulled out of your ass?

You don't get to pretend now that you are making some sort of "logical" argument because a few posts up you tried to use this same type of false bravado and faux-condescension to bluff your way out when Laughing Dog also wanted you to support your claim. You insisted that he himself had posted a source that defined "demand" the same way you did months ago, except then you refused to provide that source.

In any case, it is clear you aren't going to support your incredibly ignorant claim that "Demand is created by workers making things. Demand is a product or service" so there is no point in continuing this exchange. Bye bye.

It is clear that you don't have a logical refutation of my argument in spite of your claim that it is illogical.
Claiming your argument is logical does not make it so. Since you are unable or unwilling to find any support for it anywhere, there is little evidence it is logical. The fact you are unable or incapable of understanding the generally accepted definition of demand suggests the problem is with your view of what constitutes a "logical" argument.

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Do you understand the difference between a supported argument vs a bunch of bullshit you've pulled out of your ass?

You don't get to pretend now that you are making some sort of "logical" argument because a few posts up you tried to use this same type of false bravado and faux-condescension to bluff your way out when Laughing Dog also wanted you to support your claim. You insisted that he himself had posted a source that defined "demand" the same way you did months ago, except then you refused to provide that source.

In any case, it is clear you aren't going to support your incredibly ignorant claim that "Demand is created by workers making things. Demand is a product or service" so there is no point in continuing this exchange. Bye bye.

It is clear that you don't have a logical refutation of my argument in spite of your claim that it is illogical.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not making any sort of argument. I am pointing out that your claims are utterly false, utterly unsupported & utterly illogical. Now you can either attempt to support your claims with credible sources, or your failure to do so will prove that your claims are complete nonsense.

Here is your claim:

boneyard bill said:
Demand is created by workers making things. Demand is a product or service.

Now support it with credible sources.

Credible sources is a demand for authority.
Not necessarily. You are the only one claiming that demand is a product or a service. Your argument does not appear to have a basis in logic or fact. Perhaps someone else's presentation of the argument might be persuasive.

If my argument is not supported by logic, you should be able to tear it apart logically yourself. But apparently you're afraid to try.
I've done it. Your inability to understand the refutation reflects on your limits in reasoning not on the argument.
 
It is clear that you don't have a logical refutation of my argument in spite of your claim that it is illogical.
Claiming your argument is logical does not make it so. Since you are unable or unwilling to find any support for it anywhere, there is little evidence it is logical. The fact you are unable or incapable of understanding the generally accepted definition of demand suggests the problem is with your view of what constitutes a "logical" argument.

- - - Updated - - -

Do you understand the difference between a supported argument vs a bunch of bullshit you've pulled out of your ass?

You don't get to pretend now that you are making some sort of "logical" argument because a few posts up you tried to use this same type of false bravado and faux-condescension to bluff your way out when Laughing Dog also wanted you to support your claim. You insisted that he himself had posted a source that defined "demand" the same way you did months ago, except then you refused to provide that source.

In any case, it is clear you aren't going to support your incredibly ignorant claim that "Demand is created by workers making things. Demand is a product or service" so there is no point in continuing this exchange. Bye bye.

It is clear that you don't have a logical refutation of my argument in spite of your claim that it is illogical.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not making any sort of argument. I am pointing out that your claims are utterly false, utterly unsupported & utterly illogical. Now you can either attempt to support your claims with credible sources, or your failure to do so will prove that your claims are complete nonsense.

Here is your claim:

boneyard bill said:
Demand is created by workers making things. Demand is a product or service.

Now support it with credible sources.

Credible sources is a demand for authority.
Not necessarily. You are the only one claiming that demand is a product or a service. Your argument does not appear to have a basis in logic or fact. Perhaps someone else's presentation of the argument might be persuasive.

If my argument is not supported by logic, you should be able to tear it apart logically yourself. But apparently you're afraid to try.
I've done it. Your inability to understand the refutation reflects on your limits in reasoning not on the argument.

No where have you offered a logical reference to my claims. In fact, you haven't even addressed a single claim except for my initial one. My position is not an unconventional definition. The claim that you haven't heard it doesn't make it so. In fact, it isn't even true since you linked to a site which supported my claim.

Look. We're going around in circles. If you aren't going to address the substance of my points there's no point is discussing this with you.
 
No where have you offered a logical reference to my claims. In fact, you haven't even addressed a single claim except for my initial one. My position is not an unconventional definition.
If it is not an unconventional definition, then you ought to be able to provide a link to substantiate that claim. The fact you have not done so suggests your definition is not unconventional.
The claim that you haven't heard it doesn't make it so. In fact, it isn't even true since you linked to a site which supported my claim.
That is untrue. No link to a site has supported your bizarre claim that demand is a product or service. After wading through your "reasoning", the best I can decipher is that you confuse the object of demand (a product or service) with the demand for it.
 
If it is not an unconventional definition, then you ought to be able to provide a link to substantiate that claim. The fact you have not done so suggests your definition is not unconventional.
The claim that you haven't heard it doesn't make it so. In fact, it isn't even true since you linked to a site which supported my claim.
That is untrue. No link to a site has supported your bizarre claim that demand is a product or service. After wading through your "reasoning", the best I can decipher is that you confuse the object of demand (a product or service) with the demand for it.

It's a fucking stupid claim. Why are we entertaining him?
 
If it is not an unconventional definition, then you ought to be able to provide a link to substantiate that claim. The fact you have not done so suggests your definition is not unconventional.
The claim that you haven't heard it doesn't make it so. In fact, it isn't even true since you linked to a site which supported my claim.
That is untrue. No link to a site has supported your bizarre claim that demand is a product or service. After wading through your "reasoning", the best I can decipher is that you confuse the object of demand (a product or service) with the demand for it.

You didn't even get that right. I clearly stated that the object of demand is supply, and supply is certainly a product or service. If you've really studied my argument, you would be able to answer the questions I posed. In a non-monetary exchange, which is demand and which is supply? And, if demand isn't a product or service, what is it?

If you were a serious debater like Simple Don, for example, I might consider taking the trouble to look up sources, but I know you are not. You are all about splitting hairs and raising irrelevant issues. Unless you address the specific issue raised I will put you on my ignore list for the rest of this thread.
 
If it is not an unconventional definition, then you ought to be able to provide a link to substantiate that claim. The fact you have not done so suggests your definition is not unconventional.
That is untrue. No link to a site has supported your bizarre claim that demand is a product or service. After wading through your "reasoning", the best I can decipher is that you confuse the object of demand (a product or service) with the demand for it.

It's a fucking stupid claim. Why are we entertaining him?

What's stupid is demanding empirical evidence for a logical claim. What's stupid is insisting that only authority can decide an issue based on logic. The study of market economics begins with the study of the nature of an exchange. That is where I started, and I have let the logic take me where it goes. A head in the sand claim, "That's not what I learned in economics class," is about as know-nothing as it can get.
 
You didn't even get that right. I clearly stated that the object of demand is supply, and supply is certainly a product or service.
Then you are equating the object of demand with demand. And you equate supply with the object of supply (a good or service).
If you've really studied my argument, you would be able to answer the questions I posed. In a non-monetary exchange, which is demand and which is supply? And, if demand isn't a product or service, what is it?
Your questions are silly and have been answered before. The fact is that you appear incapable of understanding simple logical responses in this discussion.
If you were a serious debater like Simple Don, for example, I might consider taking the trouble to look up sources, but I know you are not. You are all about splitting hairs and raising irrelevant issues. Unless you address the specific issue raised I will put you on my ignore list for the rest of this thread.
Translation: You have no sources to substantiate your claims and you realize your argument is crapola. It is abundantly your grasp of economics is much weak that Ms. Clinton's.

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It's a fucking stupid claim. Why are we entertaining him?

What's stupid is demanding empirical evidence for a logical claim. What's stupid is insisting that only authority can decide an issue based on logic. The study of market economics begins with the study of the nature of an exchange. That is where I started, and I have let the logic take me where it goes. A head in the sand claim, "That's not what I learned in economics class," is about as know-nothing as it can get.
What is even more stupid is creating straw men to derail the discussion and then promising to put posters on ignore who call you on your nonsense.
 
If you were a serious debater like Simple Don, for example, I might consider taking the trouble to look up sources, but I know you are not.

Speaking as a follow board member (not a mod), I suggest you remember that "When members create a thread making claims, they are required to support those claims. Remembering that FRDB promotes rational thought and discussion"

and

Not to goad, harass, insult, flame, spam, or invade the privacy of any the owners or any other registered member of this board

Now, will you choose to stop trying to insult Laughing Dog and instead post a link to a credible source that supports your position, or not?
 
If you were a serious debater like Simple Don, for example, I might consider taking the trouble to look up sources, but I know you are not.

Speaking as a follow board member (not a mod), I suggest you remember that "When members create a thread making claims, they are required to support those claims. Remembering that FRDB promotes rational thought and discussion"

and

Not to goad, harass, insult, flame, spam, or invade the privacy of any the owners or any other registered member of this board

Now, will you choose to stop trying to insult Laughing Dog and instead post a link to a credible source that supports your position, or not?

I am NOT required to make factual claim with respect to a logical argument. That makes no sense whatsoever. My point does not depend on what any expert or all experts happen to say. If the experts say 2+2=5, they are wrong. Logic is logic. If you can't follow the logical progression that is your problem.

With respect to laughing dog. I am not insulting him. I pointed out, as I have many times before, that he is not arguing in good faith. He makes trivial and irrelevant points and won't accept the most obvious of claims if it means he would have to concede a point. I should ignore him all the time.
 
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