Crazy Bible Stories

[Keith&Co.]

Lack of evidence for pure-luck existence of the physical universe.

That's quite funny. What do you think would be different about how the universe looks, operates, is formed if it were an undirected process?

I have no idea because so far, I believe God .... MADE THIS ONE.

Then I'm confused. Didn't you JUST SAY that a reason you reject atheism is because there's no evidence for an undesigned universe? So, what is it you don't see that tells you this?

Now your turn ...

After you fail to support you claim, it's my turn to support a claim i have not made...

What do you (plural) think a universe would like, if GOD, or a god formed this universe with directed processes?

Kinda depends on the god, doesn't it?
A goddess of healing would make a much more robust immunity system.
A god of harmony would probably not have the cycle of life we see.
A god of volcanos would have a universe with a lot more active volcanos.
David Warner's god in 'Time Bandits.' "What good is a slug? Can't talk. Can't write. Can't operate heavy machinery. If i had created this universe, I'd have bloody well started with computers. Day one. Eight o'clock!" (lightning strike for emphasis, distant cry of pain.) Sorry."

If nothing else, it seems likely that there would be at least one aspect that cannot be explained without all research coming to a stop until every scientist agrees it can ONLY be explained by divine action. An orbiting golden plate that doesn't obey the laws of physics. The Chosen people not being subject to cancer, rabies, or being one of those people who think Cilantro tastes like soap, which is not genetic or environmental, but strictly a function of accepting the messiah into your heart. Unimpeachable prophecy. Something.

 

[Learner]

Whales and humans would have internal systems that could repel cancers instead of just whales, and our ability to synthesize vitamin C by ourselves wouldn't have shut off. Also, an 'attaboy' for reaching the moon.

That tells you what, in relation to conflictions to the bible? Perfection?

This world isn't according to the bible. God has left the building .. and He is building one that is...(as its written) ...reservation hotline through Jesus.

 

[James Brown]

Whales and humans would have internal systems that could repel cancers instead of just whales, and our ability to synthesize vitamin C by ourselves wouldn't have shut off. Also, an 'attaboy' for reaching the moon.

That tells you what, in relation to conflictions to the bible? Perfection?

This world isn't according to the bible. God has left the building .. and He is building one that is...(as its written) ...reservation hotline through Jesus.

What makes you think that Heaven is going to be any better than this world, given that you believe the same architect designed them both?

Will there be devastating tsunamis in Heaven? Will the people there endure cosmic radiation that causes cancers? Will they be plagued with disease-carrying mosquitoes, smallpox, and hurricanes?

Your metaphor of a reservation hotline is telling. Would you buy a retirement time-share, sight unseen, from the same builder who built your sub-standard home?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Whales and humans would have internal systems that could repel cancers instead of just whales, and our ability to synthesize vitamin C by ourselves wouldn't have shut off. Also, an 'attaboy' for reaching the moon.

That tells you what, in relation to conflictions to the bible? Perfection?

This world isn't according to the bible. God has left the building .. and He is building one that is...(as its written) ...reservation hotline through Jesus.

This is called a hand wave.

Just say it... there is nothing about this world that you think demonstrates evidence against design.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Heaven has both fleas and bedbugs, courtesy of ascetic, unhygienic Christian yogis, mystics, and eremites, and due to the lack of extermination businesses up there. (There are Starbucks. Too many, in fact.) So deal with it.
This, by revelation. Challenge my revelation and you are hostile to religion (Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission.)

 

[skepticalbip]

In a completely undesigned universe we wouldn't be able to detect any difference between a sand dune and a sand sculpture. We wouldn't know the difference between chaos and order.

Well you finally got something right. The parts of the universe that were designed by humans (like watches and sand sculptures) are obviously designed because they are nothing like the rest of the undesigned universe.

 

[Learner]

in no particular order, quick respnse.

What makes you think that Heaven is going to be any better than this world, given that you believe the same architect designed them both?

Will there be devastating tsunamis in Heaven? Will the people there endure cosmic radiation that causes cancers? Will they be plagued with disease-carrying mosquitoes, smallpox, and hurricanes?

I'm surprised Mr. Brown. Usually you bring up quotes from the bible, high-lighting to theist's supposedly contradictions.

Your metaphor of a reservation hotline is telling. Would you buy a retirement time-share, sight unseen, from the same builder who built your sub-standard home?

I take it as a rather high-level upgrade with all the percs and furnishings, if you will.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

in no particular order, quick respnse.

What makes you think that Heaven is going to be any better than this world, given that you believe the same architect designed them both?

Will there be devastating tsunamis in Heaven? Will the people there endure cosmic radiation that causes cancers? Will they be plagued with disease-carrying mosquitoes, smallpox, and hurricanes?

I'm surprised Mr. Brown. Usually you bring up quotes from the bible, high-lighting to theist's supposedly contradictions.

Your metaphor of a reservation hotline is telling. Would you buy a retirement time-share, sight unseen, from the same builder who built your sub-standard home?

I take it as a rather high-level upgrade with all the percs and furnishings, if you will.

Pretty much revisiting the Exodus here. Fool me once... etc...

God: I'm taking my people from here...
Moses: ...to somewhere better than Egypt!
God: ...
Moses: ???
God: To the land of their forefathers, Abram, Issac, and Jacob.
Moses: Abraham, Issac, and Israel?
God: Yeah... their land.
Moses: Didn't their people wander down to Egypt to begin with because of famine and other issues?
God: ... It was a couple hundred years ago, so I'm fuzzy on the details. But trust me, the rivers flow with milk and honey.
Moses: What does that even mean?!
God: You'll love it!

 

[atrib]

In a completely undesigned universe we wouldn't be able to detect any difference between a sand dune and a sand sculpture. We wouldn't know the difference between chaos and order.

You have it backwards. The fact that we are able to distinguish between a man-made object (the sand sculpture) and an object that does not appear to be the product of design (the sand dune), tells us that the natural world was NOT designed. The sculpture stands out from the rest of the environment because it looks designed. We have had this discussion before.

It's not so much that mathematics and logic and laws of physics etc etc are elegant proofs of a Designer - which they are - but rather, that we can detect their conspicuous presence and appreciate what might happen in their absence.

Math and logic are man-made constructs. They cannot exist outside an intelligent brain. The laws of nature are man made models for how reality behaves. Reality does what it does, and we try to understand it through these models. None of these are indicative of a grand designer.

In other words, Paleys watch might have been the result of completely spontaneous and unguided evolution. But we know the difference between it and a 500 million year old lump of rock.

Paley's watch was created by the brains of humans, which are themselves the products of many millions of years of undirected evolution. So much for a supreme creator.

In an unintentional evolutionary universe the term "fine tuned" wouldn't exist in any language. (If there even was such a thing as language.)

Fine tuned implies conscious intent. What is our universe fine tuned for? And how do you know it? Again, you have been challenged on this assertion in the past, and you have run away instead of defending your position.

 

[atrib]

Lack of evidence for pure-luck existence of the physical universe.

That's quite funny. What do you think would be different about how the universe looks, operates, is formed if it were an undirected process?

I have no idea because so far, I believe God .... MADE THIS ONE.

Now your turn ... What do you (plural) think a universe would like, if GOD, or a god formed this universe with directed processes?

I don't have a fucking idea. Why don't you tell us, since this god can't be bothered to show up and explain its position?

Also ask yourself this: why would god have knowingly created a universe in which babies are sometimes born with microcephaly?

 

[atrib]

I like Kent Hovind,

You would. He makes up shit and lies his ass off for his god. What's not to like?

I've still got to address a few questions from Atrib. Its not that I'm avoiding its merely that I put him at the end of the que.

I have no expectation that you will provide a meaningful response. And that's fine. The point to take away is that the Genesis flood story is a fabrication. We have known this since the early 19th century when Christian naturalists like Adam Sedgwick and William Buckland (both Reverands in the church, no less) set out to find evidence for the Genesis flood, and discovered instead that this flood could not have happened. And they were honest enough to admit it. Creationists today could learn a thing or two about integrity from Sedgwick and Buckland.

Unlike many claims Christians make, the Genesis flood claim IS falsifiable, and that is important. Because everything we know about the history of our planet tells us the Genesis flood did not happen.

 

[atrib]

Whales and humans would have internal systems that could repel cancers instead of just whales, and our ability to synthesize vitamin C by ourselves wouldn't have shut off. Also, an 'attaboy' for reaching the moon.

That tells you what, in relation to conflictions to the bible? Perfection?

This world isn't according to the bible. God has left the building .. and He is building one that is...(as its written) ...reservation hotline through Jesus.

God fucked up on earth, and now he's working on another project? Wonder how that will turn out. Maybe it will be wonderful, like a celestial North Korea, where you spend eternity singing the praises of the Beloved Supreme Leader and his Beloved Clone Son (who got himself into quite a bit of bother on earth about 2,000 years ago, as the story goes).

 

[Lion IRC]

Lack of evidence for pure-luck existence of the physical universe.

That's quite funny. What do you think would be different about how the universe looks, operates, is formed if it were an undirected process?

I have no idea because so far, I believe God .... MADE THIS ONE.

Come on Learner! I expect better of you.
You've been asked to explain what the universe would be like if God didn't create it.
How hard can that be?

OK - I'll make it a little easier for you.
Imagine a birthday cake that nobody baked. Nobody went to the store and bought the ingredients. Nobody mixed the flour and eggs and sugar. Nobody baked it. Nobody took it out of the oven and decorated it. Nobody...[you get the idea]

Now please! Just tell us all what that cake looks like. Simple.
Piece of cake.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I have no idea because so far, I believe God .... MADE THIS ONE.

Come on Learner! I expect better of you.
You've been asked to explain what the universe would be like if God didn't create it.
How hard can that be?

OK - I'll make it a little easier for you.
Imagine a birthday cake that nobody baked. Nobody went to the store and bought the ingredients. Nobody mixed the flour and eggs and sugar. Nobody baked it. Nobody took it out of the oven and decorated it. Nobody...[you get the idea]

Now please! Just tell us all what that cake looks like. Simple.
Piece of cake.

The trouble here is that there is a positive claim being made by theists that the universe is designed. When one makes a claim, they need to provide some backup. Asking what an undesigned universe would look like, to differentiate between what is allegedly designed is very fair game.

So when a theist says the "universe is designed", what they actually mean is that because it exists, it must be designed! Much like how snowflakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, and glacial pot holes are designed.

 

[atrib]

I have no idea because so far, I believe God .... MADE THIS ONE.

Come on Learner! I expect better of you.
You've been asked to explain what the universe would be like if God didn't create it.
How hard can that be?

OK - I'll make it a little easier for you.
Imagine a birthday cake that nobody baked. Nobody went to the store and bought the ingredients. Nobody mixed the flour and eggs and sugar. Nobody baked it. Nobody took it out of the oven and decorated it. Nobody...[you get the idea]

Now please! Just tell us all what that cake looks like. Simple.
Piece of cake.

I think you missed a step. For this "baker" analogy to work, you would also have to:
1. produce the "baker" who put the ingredients together and "baked" this universe, and
2. show us where he got the ingredients, and
3. provide the recipe used.

Piece of cake.

Your pal Lumpy was telling us recently that we should believe the Jesus resurrection story because a dog can apparently play a piano. Not to be outdone, you have come up with your own entry for the "Creationists Say the Dumbest Things" award for 2019. We look forward to your continued participation, and the unique insights you bring to these forums.

 

[Lion IRC]

The trouble here is that there is a positive claim being made by theists that the universe is designed. When one makes a claim, they need to provide some backup. Asking what an undesigned universe would look like, to differentiate between what is allegedly designed is very fair game.

So when a theist says the "universe is designed", what they actually mean is that because it exists, it must be designed! Much like how snowflakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, and glacial pot holes are designed.

This is ontological special pleading.
...a brute fact claim that things which exist have no causal explanation.

Why is the universe exempt from the need to explain its own (finely tuned) existence?

When we say why is there something rather than nothing, even a past eternal, perpetual motion universe still exists.

Same with a past-eternal God. God exists because He wants to. The cake He baked for Learner exists because God designed it and baked it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The trouble here is that there is a positive claim being made by theists that the universe is designed. When one makes a claim, they need to provide some backup. Asking what an undesigned universe would look like, to differentiate between what is allegedly designed is very fair game.

So when a theist says the "universe is designed", what they actually mean is that because it exists, it must be designed! Much like how snowflakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, and glacial pot holes are designed.

This is ontological special pleading.

Well yeah... but not in how you want it to be.

...a brute fact claim that things which exist have no causal explanation.

That isn't the argument being made. The argument being made is that the Universe is Designed. And when I say "argument", I'm being kind as it is more of an empty assertion that has in very little way looked to defend itself.

Why is the universe exempt from the need to explain its own (finely tuned) existence?

Oh look, that assertion was made again.

When we say why is there something rather than nothing, even a past eternal, perpetual motion universe still exists.

If you'd like to argue a beginning of the universe or lack of a beginning or what not, that is another discussion. This is specifically about Design... not shifting goalposts. Ultimately, this is the greatest weakness in these "arguments". Three is little substance behind the apologism, therefore, we get the goalposts shifting in order to make the "argument" appear more substantial, when in fact, all that is being done is going from one set of baseless assertions to another to another... and then circling back around.

The universe is designed.
How so?
Well, you need to prove it isn't designed.
But you made the initial claim.You need to back it up.
And it has always existed? That is no different than saying there is a god.
Wait, what are we arguing about now?
I'm saying you are a hypocrite if you say an eternal universe exists, but an eternal god can't, it is the same thing!
...

Same with a past-eternal God. God exists because He wants to.

That again has nothing to do with Design.

 

[atrib]

The trouble here is that there is a positive claim being made by theists that the universe is designed. When one makes a claim, they need to provide some backup. Asking what an undesigned universe would look like, to differentiate between what is allegedly designed is very fair game.

So when a theist says the "universe is designed", what they actually mean is that because it exists, it must be designed! Much like how snowflakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, and glacial pot holes are designed.

This is ontological special pleading.
...a brute fact claim that things which exist have no causal explanation.

Why is the universe exempt from the need to explain its own (finely tuned) existence?

When we say why is there something rather than nothing, even a past eternal, perpetual motion universe still exists.

Same with a past-eternal God. God exists because He wants to.

This is ontological special pleading.
...a brute fact claim that things which exist have no causal explanation.

Do you even read what you write?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Lack of evidence for pure-luck existence of the physical universe.

That's quite funny. What do you think would be different about how the universe looks, operates, is formed if it were an undirected process?

I have no idea because so far, I believe God .... MADE THIS ONE.

Now your turn ... What do you (plural) think a universe would like, if GOD, or a god formed this universe with directed processes?

Consider yourself lucky.

Is there any kind of quantifiable difference between being lucky and god?

I have no idea because so far, I believe God .... MADE THIS ONE.

Come on Learner! I expect better of you.
You've been asked to explain what the universe would be like if God didn't create it.
How hard can that be?

OK - I'll make it a little easier for you.
Imagine a birthday cake that nobody baked. Nobody went to the store and bought the ingredients. Nobody mixed the flour and eggs and sugar. Nobody baked it. Nobody took it out of the oven and decorated it. Nobody...[you get the idea]

Now please! Just tell us all what that cake looks like. Simple.
Piece of cake.

It's like a christian god.

 

[skepticalbip]

Lack of evidence for pure-luck existence of the physical universe.

That's quite funny. What do you think would be different about how the universe looks, operates, is formed if it were an undirected process?

I have no idea because so far, I believe God .... MADE THIS ONE.

Now your turn ... What do you (plural) think a universe would like, if GOD, or a god formed this universe with directed processes?

It would depend on the nature of this supposed god.

If he were a sadistic bastard then I could imagine it would be kinda like what we see here on Earth now. Creatures killing other creatures to survive, hatred, war, disease, pain, suffering, etc.

If he were an inept designer then again I could imagine much of the 'design' we see now; poor anatomical human design that causes choking on food, severe back problems, cancers, use of 3rd class levers (the least efficient). severely limited senses, etc.

If he were anything like Christians describe him then I could imagine the world would be where there is no pain or suffering, where wishing makes it so, where there was no hate, etc.