Disaster for Ukraine. Rebels route Ukrainian forces at Donetsk

[thief of fire]

Had there not been a coup in Kiev and an illegal government largely controlled by neo nazi elements he would have a point.

So this Neo Nazi government you speak of...got any evidence?


Photo of a swastika or two outside a government building? Some rounding up of Jews?

I mean Nazis have a pretty distinct look and history, so if you're going to claim they've taken over Ukraine you should be able to provide some evidence.


Perhaps a manifesto written in prison by one of their leaders?

There is a heap of stuff on youtube which will give you a good look at them.
Or you could read this as a starter.
Ukraine’s ‘Romantic’ Nazi Storm Troopers

Exclusive: While most civilized people view the Swastika and other Nazi symbols as abhorrent reminders of unspeakable evil, the Washington Post trotted out a new way of seeing them – as “romantic” – a sign that apologists for Ukraine’s coup regime know no limits, reports Robert Parry.

By Robert Parry

The U.S. mainstream media’s deeply biased coverage of the Ukraine crisis – endlessly portraying the U.S.-backed coup regime in Kiev as “the good guys” – reached a new level of absurdity over the weekend as the Washington Post excused the appearance of Swastikas and other Nazi symbols among a Ukrainian government militia as “romantic.”

This curious description of these symbols for unspeakable evil – the human devastation of the Holocaust and World War II — can be found in the last three paragraphs of the lead story in the Post’s Saturday editions, an article about Ukraine’s Azov battalion which has become best known for waging brutal warfare under Nazi and neo-Nazi insignia.

 

[thief of fire]

Non. I am actually good at documenting my point,

What you are good at is comparing apples with oranges. All the rest is fluff.

 

[barbos]

Then give them independence. You know; that thing they've been fighting for.

We did, it cost too much.

You are assuming that russians are at fault there, when in reality the opposite is true.
It was Chenchia who actually invaded Russia during second War, So you fail miserably.

Actually, it was Russia that started the 2nd war. The Invasion of Dagestan served as the trigger for the 2nd Chechen war; this invasion *did*

Right, and Russia attacked Hitler too.

come from elements that were based in Chechnya, but it is a severe distortion of the facts to claim "Chechnya" invaded Russia. The invasion force that entered Dagestan was in fact part of the Islamic International Brigade, who were not affiliated with the Chechnyan government and thus can not be pointed to as "Chechnya invading Russia". The situation is more comparable what the US faced from terrorist groups operating out of Pakistan and striking into Afghanistan; note that the United States did *not* respond by invading Pakistan, the way Russia invaded Chechnya (again).

Right! Russia attacked Perl Harbor too.

Russia's military invasion of Chechnya was completely disproportional to the cassus belli they gave for starting it. Not to mention that if the cassus belli was the IIB's actions in Dagestan, then why was the intent and result of the Russian invasion an end to Chechnyan independence? Again; imperial ambitions at work.

I am surprised you have not blamed War with Nazi Germany on Russia.

No, just the deal they made with the Nazi's to divide up Poland.

Yes, bullshit, these were internal affairs and SU was not the only one member of Warsaw Pact who took part in "helping"

These were not "internal affairs". These were states rightfully reasserting their independence after they had previously been conquered by the Soviet union. These were not part of Russia, and thus were not "internal affairs" (not that that'd justify a damn thing.)

Not as much as Netherlands

Do you REALLY want me to compare the lists, seeing as how you made the exact same claim about the United States only to be shown to be completely wrong?

Absolutely. Not only that but dutch sounds like cursing to russian ear.

We're the darlings of star trek fanatics everywhere; our language makes us sound like Klingons, our history makes us look Ferengi, and our current position in international politics makes us the equivalent of a founding member of the Federation. Not that the sound of our language has anything to do with anything.

And Monarchy, they have a king! In 21st century!

A symbolic figurehead with no real power beats a dictator any day.

You have a monarchy! You have a monarcy!You have a monarcy!You have a monarcy!You have a monarcy!

 

[barbos]

Non. I am actually good at documenting my point, a point you and Thief of Fire pursue to evade. While you, particularly, engage mostly in emotional drivel.

Now try your legalese to justify what you did to native americans, slavery and iran-contras/death squads.

Out of those 3, I would be glad to start a thread as to the effects of the European Commercial Triangle which fueled the enslaving of African natives while setting an antecedent for the abuses of French colonialism in my native continent, Africa. Basically, I am a strong anti colonialist. "Native continent" as I was born in a now ex French colony in Africa. If I had to discuss slavery, that would be the focal point of my argumentation exposing the ills of French colonialism which perpetrated the exploitation of native Africans.

Also, try to remember that I am NOT a US citizen. I am not even remotely close to being a "culturally americanized" long term foreign resident in the US.

Once more, you have NOT addressed the point I have underlined now several times : being that the Russian troops stationed in Crimea violated Article 6 of the Partition Treaty. Instead you adopt the mentality that 2 wrongs somehow make it a right. You keep mentioning wrongs committed by other nations as if it justifies the wrong of Russia violating the terms and conditions of the Partition Treaty. It does not. A point you are refusing to acknowledge in this thread.

Then you address me as if I would be inclined in any way shape or form to rationalize or justify colonialism whether it be in Africa, the Middle East, South East Asia, American continents etc...

As to the British, if I have to, Jo who is a Maori and owner of this board will attest as to my stated positions regarding how the British colonization in the native land of her people, New Zealand, exploited and abused the Maori people and their culture. Get it?


As to your addressing me as if I am some ignorant moron, I am the party here who rubbed your nose into a document you still refuse to acknowledge its content. A document , at this point, I believe you had previously done NO home work on. Just you rehashing the same emotionally prompted drivel.

LOL you really think I have not heard about that worthless piece of paper?
That's why I requested your legalese drivel to help to legally justify US independence from US.
Fucking lease agreement my ass
If you fucking care about legality why don't fucking accept Cuba existence in its present state?
It is very convenient to select what you accept and what not to accept.
Your fucking lease was declared invalid when you decided to fuck new Cuban government.
get it?!
Learn to let it go and cubans will let it go too and maybe start accepting your payments for the base.

 

[barbos]

So this Neo Nazi government you speak of...got any evidence?


Photo of a swastika or two outside a government building? Some rounding up of Jews?

I mean Nazis have a pretty distinct look and history, so if you're going to claim they've taken over Ukraine you should be able to provide some evidence.


Perhaps a manifesto written in prison by one of their leaders?

There is a heap of stuff on youtube which will give you a good look at them.
Or you could read this as a starter.
Ukraine’s ‘Romantic’ Nazi Storm Troopers

Exclusive: While most civilized people view the Swastika and other Nazi symbols as abhorrent reminders of unspeakable evil, the Washington Post trotted out a new way of seeing them – as “romantic” – a sign that apologists for Ukraine’s coup regime know no limits, reports Robert Parry.

By Robert Parry

The U.S. mainstream media’s deeply biased coverage of the Ukraine crisis – endlessly portraying the U.S.-backed coup regime in Kiev as “the good guys” – reached a new level of absurdity over the weekend as the Washington Post excused the appearance of Swastikas and other Nazi symbols among a Ukrainian government militia as “romantic.”

This curious description of these symbols for unspeakable evil – the human devastation of the Holocaust and World War II — can be found in the last three paragraphs of the lead story in the Post’s Saturday editions, an article about Ukraine’s Azov battalion which has become best known for waging brutal warfare under Nazi and neo-Nazi insignia.

If that's true then Washington Post is pretty disgusting.

 

[Ford]

There is a heap of stuff on youtube which will give you a good look at them.
Or you could read this as a starter.
Ukraine’s ‘Romantic’ Nazi Storm Troopers

A heap? I'm sure there is. But why bother searching you tube when you've provided an objective source?


p.s. that's sarcasm.


Do you have anything that's not hopelessly in the bag for Russia?

 

[thief of fire]

There is a heap of stuff on youtube which will give you a good look at them.
Or you could read this as a starter.
Ukraine’s ‘Romantic’ Nazi Storm Troopers

A heap? I'm sure there is. But why bother searching you tube when you've provided an objective source?


p.s. that's sarcasm.


Do you have anything that's not hopelessly in the bag for Russia?

http://www.amazon.com/Right-Wing-Populism-Europe-Politics-Discourse/dp/1780932456

 

[Ford]

A heap? I'm sure there is. But why bother searching you tube when you've provided an objective source?


p.s. that's sarcasm.


Do you have anything that's not hopelessly in the bag for Russia?

http://www.amazon.com/Right-Wing-Populism-Europe-Politics-Discourse/dp/1780932456

Okay, so let me see if I've got you right on this:


Because a few admitted far right militia types fighting against the Russian invasion of Ukraine are sporting swastikas, the Kiev government itself is The Third Reich 2.0.

Then in order to back up this claim, you link to a book which (apparently) tells us something not exactly a secret - that there are some far right types in Europe generally.


Wow. I don't even know how to respond to the rock solid arguments you present.


(yeah, that's more sarcasm)

 

[barbos]

http://www.amazon.com/Right-Wing-Populism-Europe-Politics-Discourse/dp/1780932456

Okay, so let me see if I've got you right on this:


Because a few admitted far right militia types fighting against the Russian invasion of Ukraine are sporting swastikas, the Kiev government itself is The Third Reich 2.0.

Then in order to back up this claim, you link to a book which (apparently) tells us something not exactly a secret - that there are some far right types in Europe generally.


Wow. I don't even know how to respond to the rock solid arguments you present.


(yeah, that's more sarcasm)

There is no russian invasion.
these nazis are fighting ukrainians which happened to be russians, and before that tthey illegally maidaned democrtically elected government out. From a legal standpoint, russian ukrainians are legal power there fighting scambags which managed to take power in Kiev.

 

[Ford]

There is no russian invasion.

Oh, that's right. You believe not a single Russian soldier has even set foot in Ukraine, because in your mind Crimea was never part of Ukraine.


It's all Russia and Nazis to you.

 

[thief of fire]

http://www.amazon.com/Right-Wing-Populism-Europe-Politics-Discourse/dp/1780932456

Okay, so let me see if I've got you right on this:
Because a few admitted far right militia types fighting against the Russian invasion of Ukraine are sporting swastikas, the Kiev government itself is The Third Reich 2.0.
Then in order to back up this claim, you link to a book which (apparently) tells us something not exactly a secret - that there are some far right types in Europe generally.
Wow. I don't even know how to respond to the rock solid arguments you present.
(yeah, that's more sarcasm)

Call me skeptical But I wasn't sure how much edumacation you needed on the issue so wanted to start at the beginning.

 

[thief of fire]

There is no russian invasion.

Oh, that's right. You believe not a single Russian soldier has even set foot in Ukraine, because in your mind Crimea was never part of Ukraine. It's all Russia and Nazis to you.

So glad to have you 'mericans fighting for freedumb all over the world.

 

[Ford]

Serious question: Do you really care?

Serious answer?



I grew up in America during the Cold War. We were led to believe that the Soviet Union was pure evil.


When then USSR collapsed, some of us backed off that premise and thought for awhile that maybe these Russians we'd been told were terrible people were in fact terribly misunderstood.


Your buddy Putin has thrown all that out the window. Putin, for lack of a better term, has become the public face of Russia, and that public face is a country that says "we don't give a fuck one way or another what the international community thinks about us. We're going to conquer as much territory as we can and screw everyone else."


Yeah. I care about despots who don't give a fuck about borders.

 

[Ford]

Oh, that's right. You believe not a single Russian soldier has even set foot in Ukraine, because in your mind Crimea was never part of Ukraine. It's all Russia and Nazis to you.

So glad to have you 'mericans fighting for freedumb all over the world.

Maybe you should move to Russia?

 

[angelo]

It gets a little cold around Moscow in the middle of Winter. Hope anyone planning on moving there knows that.

 

[dystopian]

You have a monarchy! You have a monarcy!You have a monarcy!You have a monarcy!You have a monarcy!

Seems you've finally snapped.

 

[barbos]

There is no russian invasion.

Oh, that's right. You believe not a single Russian soldier has even set foot in Ukraine, because in your mind Crimea was never part of Ukraine.


It's all Russia and Nazis to you.

Oh, I forgot, you are convinced that these poor crimeans voted to leave because they were scared of guns pointed at them.

 

[barbos]

Speaking of Ukraine:

 

[barbos]

http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/...-works-for-a-ukrainian-energy-company/372385/

 

[angelo]

^^Isn't that a coincidence!