Green New Deal wildly popular with all population segments

[barbos]

An interesting side note to this: until very recently our power would cut out about 2x a month for a couple of hours or a couple of days. This is not actually the end of the world, you know. Luckily for us, they strung some new wire or fixed a connection at some point about two years ago. We are still susceptible to power outages during storms, of course, but now it’s 2x/yr instead of 2x/mo.

Point being that brown-outs or blackouts are not actually apocolyptic, while global warming could be.

Yes, LP thinks that everything must be powered no matter what, when in reality, if a factory can be stopped when there is a predicted reduction of power then it should be stopped and everybody get time off. Some places can not be stopped, for them you have to have backups, for everybody else you don't to do laundry and would have walk down instead of using the elevator. Not the end of the world, You just sit the "apocalypse" out at home. And yes, stores should not be open at night, it's a stupid American invention, they should be closed and lights should be off.

You realize how expensive it will be for the economy when you can't count on production anymore?

I do, it will be less expensive.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The point is your numbers require 100% efficiency and then some. I'm looking at what we realistically can do.

No, my numbers don't require that, they assume it for the sake of calculation. They also assume that outside temperature is +35C which is not usually the case. The point is, you can run house on tiny amount of electricity.

Lets assume your walls are perfect insulators. You still can't run the house on the power you envision because of leakage through the windows and doors and the required air exchange. (Seal a house too tightly and CO2 builds up.)

And that's not considering the heat produced by the people inside and whatever they might be doing. (Say, cooking...)

 

[barbos]

The point is your numbers require 100% efficiency and then some. I'm looking at what we realistically can do.

No, my numbers don't require that, they assume it for the sake of calculation. They also assume that outside temperature is +35C which is not usually the case. The point is, you can run house on tiny amount of electricity.

Lets assume your walls are perfect insulators. You still can't run the house on the power you envision because of leakage through the windows and doors and the required air exchange. (Seal a house too tightly and CO2 builds up.)

Why? I calculated about 1 kw of heat needed to be transferred in or out. during cold or hot day. That's way more than cooking or windows can five you. Well unless your window is open during winter or not shaded during hot day. Yes, regenerative ventilation is required.
So 1 KW at 15-20C difference is equal to about 50 watt heat pump.

And that's not considering the heat produced by the people inside and whatever they might be doing. (Say, cooking...)

The average human, at rest, produces around 100 watts of power.
So during winter it will reduce heating requirements and during summer increase it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Lets assume your walls are perfect insulators. You still can't run the house on the power you envision because of leakage through the windows and doors and the required air exchange. (Seal a house too tightly and CO2 builds up.)

Why? I calculated about 1 kw of heat needed to be transferred in or out. during cold or hot day. That's way more than cooking or windows can five you. Well unless your window is open during winter or not shaded during hot day. Yes, regenerative ventilation is required.
So 1 KW at 15-20C difference is equal to about 50 watt heat pump.

And that's not considering the heat produced by the people inside and whatever they might be doing. (Say, cooking...)

The average human, at rest, produces around 100 watts of power.
So during winter it will reduce heating requirements and during summer increase it.

1) I see you're still ignoring the losses of the air exchange. It's not anything like 100%.

2) Lets look at windows, specifically bedroom windows. The minimum size is 5 sq ft on the ground floor, almost 6 on higher floors. Lets take that minimal window and see what happens. Local weather data says about 2000 degree days of heating and about 3200 of cooling. The best windows I can find have an R-value of 5. That gives a heating requirement of about 48,000 BTU and cooling of 76,800 BTU, for a total power use of 36 kWh for one small window. .1 kWh per small window per day. Your 1 kWh thus covers 50 sq ft of windows. Few houses have that little in the way of windows. And that's not counting any other use of power.

 

[barbos]

Why? I calculated about 1 kw of heat needed to be transferred in or out. during cold or hot day. That's way more than cooking or windows can five you. Well unless your window is open during winter or not shaded during hot day. Yes, regenerative ventilation is required.
So 1 KW at 15-20C difference is equal to about 50 watt heat pump.

The average human, at rest, produces around 100 watts of power.
So during winter it will reduce heating requirements and during summer increase it.

1) I see you're still ignoring the losses of the air exchange. It's not anything like 100%.

They are negligible compared to walls. (1000 watts)

2) Lets look at windows, specifically bedroom windows. The minimum size is 5 sq ft on the ground floor, almost 6 on higher floors. Lets take that minimal window and see what happens. Local weather data says about 2000 degree days of heating and about 3200 of cooling. The best windows I can find have an R-value of 5. That gives a heating requirement of about 48,000 BTU and cooling of 76,800 BTU, for a total power use of 36 kWh for one small window. .1 kWh per small window per day. Your 1 kWh thus covers 50 sq ft of windows. Few houses have that little in the way of windows. And that's not counting any other use of power.

R-value of 5.5=0.97 m^2*K/(W*inch)
that means 1 watt for 1m^2 1 inch thick window at 1K difference,
for 20 degrees and typical 2 m^2 it will be 40 watts.
We will have 4 windows for my 70m^2 house. that's additional 160 watt to 1000 watt from the walls.
Conclusion - windows are negligible.
With all these additions I can give you 2000 watts of heat transfer. That's 100 watt for heat pump.
I just measured a typical window it's closer to 1 m^2, but that's OK, you can have 2m^2.
And then there are VIP windows, and if they are expensive (which they should not be) then you can still close your windows with additional thermal protection on a hot day. make it computerized/motorized

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They are negligible compared to walls. (1000 watts)

2) Lets look at windows, specifically bedroom windows. The minimum size is 5 sq ft on the ground floor, almost 6 on higher floors. Lets take that minimal window and see what happens. Local weather data says about 2000 degree days of heating and about 3200 of cooling. The best windows I can find have an R-value of 5. That gives a heating requirement of about 48,000 BTU and cooling of 76,800 BTU, for a total power use of 36 kWh for one small window. .1 kWh per small window per day. Your 1 kWh thus covers 50 sq ft of windows. Few houses have that little in the way of windows. And that's not counting any other use of power.

R-value of 5.5=0.97 m^2*K/(W*inch)
that means 1 watt for 1m^2 1 inch thick window at 1K difference,
for 20 degrees and typical 2 m^2 it will be 40 watts.
We will have 4 windows for my 70m^2 house. that's additional 160 watt to 1000 watt from the walls.
Conclusion - windows are negligible.
With all these additions I can give you 2000 watts of heat transfer. That's 100 watt for heat pump.
I just measured a typical window it's closer to 1 m^2, but that's OK, you can have 2m^2.
And then there are VIP windows, and if they are expensive (which they should not be) then you can still close your windows with additional thermal protection on a hot day. make it computerized/motorized

I've never seen a 70m^2 house around here, the smallest I've seen is about 100m^2. And I've never seen a house with only 4 windows. 70m^2/4 windows sounds like an apartment or condo.

And I wasn't trying to compare windows to walls, I was trying to show that the heat load of the windows themselves will exceed your threshold. While this isn't the most moderate of climates it's actually a lower demand than much of the US.

 

[barbos]

They are negligible compared to walls. (1000 watts)

2) Lets look at windows, specifically bedroom windows. The minimum size is 5 sq ft on the ground floor, almost 6 on higher floors. Lets take that minimal window and see what happens. Local weather data says about 2000 degree days of heating and about 3200 of cooling. The best windows I can find have an R-value of 5. That gives a heating requirement of about 48,000 BTU and cooling of 76,800 BTU, for a total power use of 36 kWh for one small window. .1 kWh per small window per day. Your 1 kWh thus covers 50 sq ft of windows. Few houses have that little in the way of windows. And that's not counting any other use of power.

R-value of 5.5=0.97 m^2*K/(W*inch)
that means 1 watt for 1m^2 1 inch thick window at 1K difference,
for 20 degrees and typical 2 m^2 it will be 40 watts.
We will have 4 windows for my 70m^2 house. that's additional 160 watt to 1000 watt from the walls.
Conclusion - windows are negligible.
With all these additions I can give you 2000 watts of heat transfer. That's 100 watt for heat pump.

I just measured a typical window it's closer to 1 m^2, but that's OK, you can have 2m^2.
And then there are VIP windows, and if they are expensive (which they should not be) then you can still close your windows with additional thermal protection on a hot day. make it computerized/motorized

I've never seen a 70m^2 house around here, the smallest I've seen is about 100m^2. And I've never seen a house with only 4 windows. 70m^2/4 windows sounds like an apartment or condo.

Windows can be ignored. And you can easily scale my results to 100m^2. Even though I don't see any explanation why it can't be 70m^2.

And I wasn't trying to compare windows to walls, I was trying to show that the heat load of the windows themselves will exceed your threshold. While this isn't the most moderate of climates it's actually a lower demand than much of the US.

What threshold?


Fact is, 5 m^2 solar panel gives you 200 watts budget, which is 2 times higher than my 100 watts requirements for running a well insulated and designed house.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I've never seen a 70m^2 house around here, the smallest I've seen is about 100m^2. And I've never seen a house with only 4 windows. 70m^2/4 windows sounds like an apartment or condo.

Windows can be ignored. And you can easily scale my results to 100m^2. Even though I don't see any explanation why it can't be 70m^2.

And I wasn't trying to compare windows to walls, I was trying to show that the heat load of the windows themselves will exceed your threshold. While this isn't the most moderate of climates it's actually a lower demand than much of the US.

What threshold?


Fact is, 5 m^2 solar panel gives you 200 watts budget, which is 2 times higher than my 100 watts requirements for running a well insulated and designed house.

200 watts won't provide the heating and cooling you're looking for.

 

[barbos]

Windows can be ignored. And you can easily scale my results to 100m^2. Even though I don't see any explanation why it can't be 70m^2.

What threshold?


Fact is, 5 m^2 solar panel gives you 200 watts budget, which is 2 times higher than my 100 watts requirements for running a well insulated and designed house.

200 watts won't provide the heating and cooling you're looking for.

It will, according to calculations it will. In fact passively heated homes has been a thing for quite some time. So heating is lesser problem than cooling.