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Green New Deal wildly popular with all population segments

Underseer

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atheism, resistentialism
https://earther.gizmodo.com/new-poll-shows-basically-everyone-likes-alexandria-ocas-1831158171

[YOUTUBE]v=3-4Bffxoevk[/YOUTUBE]

It would mean more jobs for non-wealthy people, it would mean cheaper energy in the future, and it would mean less economic damage from climate change in the far future. Even among fascists conservatives, this idea is favored.

So, of course, all Republicans and most Democrats (namely the conservadems) will be against this. They aren't interested in doing what the people want, they only want to do what campaign donors want.
 
I watched more than half of the video. First of all these results were based on one small online poll. It's pretty stupid to make a statement that most people back her plan based on one unscientific poll. Secondly, getting off of all fossil fuels by 2030 sounds very unrealistic. Let them do more accurate polling and then they can start making claims that most people want this. 900 or so people answering an online poll is pretty meaningless, imo.

Don't get me wrong. It's a lovely idea, but a lot of the most progressive ideas seem to be based on wishful thinking. I didn't watch the entire video as I strongly prefer to read information, rather than watch someone on a video. Did it give any details as to how such a plan could be accomplished? Do you have a link that explains the details of her plan in writing?
 
You know what? This will sound odd, but I say wishful thinking is good here. I don't think Ocasio-Cortez is a genius. I don't think she will come up with the best ideas, policies, etc. Same with Bernie before her. But I think the mere balls of them trying in the face of the resistance to it all, is the mustering of the political will to make a real effort, and that WILL bring progress. She also strikes me as somebody who will listen to scientists and other real experts and not put her own ego first. I hope she can hold onto that. I could see her as a future President if she does in 15 to 20 or so years after a long career of pushing forward the progressive movement.
 
Jobs--yes.

Cheaper energy--nope.

Less economic damage--questionable.

People favor the goal she favors, that doesn't mean her road gets us there.

Sky-pie usually looks yummy.
 
In other news: America's Oil And Gas Reserves Double With Massive New Permian Discovery

https://www.forbes.com/sites/arielc...ouble-with-massive-new-permian-discovery/amp/

It looks like cheap fossil fuels will be with us for quite some time.

The reality is that the US is now the #1 oil and gas producer in the world, with plenty of reserves. People will be reluctant to spend billions more in taxpayer money on pie in the sky when energy is cheap and likely to remain so for the foreseeable future.
 
I watched more than half of the video. First of all these results were based on one small online poll. It's pretty stupid to make a statement that most people back her plan based on one unscientific poll. Secondly, getting off of all fossil fuels by 2030 sounds very unrealistic. Let them do more accurate polling and then they can start making claims that most people want this. 900 or so people answering an online poll is pretty meaningless, imo.

Don't get me wrong. It's a lovely idea, but a lot of the most progressive ideas seem to be based on wishful thinking. I didn't watch the entire video as I strongly prefer to read information, rather than watch someone on a video. Did it give any details as to how such a plan could be accomplished? Do you have a link that explains the details of her plan in writing?

Yeah. These progressives. Next they'll want to go to the Moon in a decade!
 
In other news: America's Oil And Gas Reserves Double With Massive New Permian Discovery

https://www.forbes.com/sites/arielc...ouble-with-massive-new-permian-discovery/amp/

It looks like cheap fossil fuels will be with us for quite some time.

The reality is that the US is now the #1 oil and gas producer in the world, with plenty of reserves. People will be reluctant to spend billions more in taxpayer money on pie in the sky when energy is cheap and likely to remain so for the foreseeable future.

Yeah, if only there were something that could be done to lower the cost of some of these and raise the cost of the others :consternation1:

I guess it's impossible. Efficient markets, Pareto, blah blah blah.

Nope. The government can't do anything.
 
In other news: America's Oil And Gas Reserves Double With Massive New Permian Discovery

https://www.forbes.com/sites/arielc...ouble-with-massive-new-permian-discovery/amp/

It looks like cheap fossil fuels will be with us for quite some time.

The reality is that the US is now the #1 oil and gas producer in the world, with plenty of reserves. People will be reluctant to spend billions more in taxpayer money on pie in the sky when energy is cheap and likely to remain so for the foreseeable future.
I agree. The paradox though, is this should precisely be the times during fossil fuel abundance when green infrastructure should be begun. Because of the means to build what it takes today with cheap fuel. This same green infrastructure will be much more expensive perhaps even impossible in the future if/when oil becomes scarce and expensive again.
 
In other news: America's Oil And Gas Reserves Double With Massive New Permian Discovery

https://www.forbes.com/sites/arielc...ouble-with-massive-new-permian-discovery/amp/

It looks like cheap fossil fuels will be with us for quite some time.

The reality is that the US is now the #1 oil and gas producer in the world, with plenty of reserves. People will be reluctant to spend billions more in taxpayer money on pie in the sky when energy is cheap and likely to remain so for the foreseeable future.

It's much less expensive for me to dump my trash and sewage out into the street.
 
I agree. The paradox though, is this should precisely be the times during fossil fuel abundance when green infrastructure should be begun.
I agree. Unfortunately the ecomentalists are sold on demanding to "keep it in the ground" and "no pipelines" instead of using this to push for a deal that would use some of the windfall to invest in future energy sources.

Because of the means to build what it takes today with cheap fuel. This same green infrastructure will be much more expensive perhaps even impossible in the future if/when oil becomes scarce and expensive again.
Or if we kill domestic oil/gas industry and have to send vast amount of dollars abroad just to get it.
 
Yeah. These progressives. Next they'll want to go to the Moon in a decade!

Compared to fundamentally changing the way 4,000,000,000,000 kWh of electricity are produced each year in the US, sending three guys to the moon is child's play.
And electricity production does not even address the other major emitters of carbon, transportation and industry.
total_electricity.png


Another issue is that of course many people will be supportive of the idea of the Green New Deal in principle. But the devil is in the details. What when people are told that the aggressive AOC timetable would cause gasoline to go to $10/gal and electricity to 30-40 cents/kWh? (numbers are examples, but I think realistic)
 
Another issue is that of course many people will be supportive of the idea of the Green New Deal in principle. But the devil is in the details. What when people are told that the aggressive AOC timetable would cause gasoline to go to $10/gal and electricity to 30-40 cents/kWh? (numbers are examples, but I think realistic)

Gasoline? There’d be no gasoline in AOCtopia.

The fumes scare away the unicorns, and we need their farts to power our devices.
 
Another issue is that of course many people will be supportive of the idea of the Green New Deal in principle. But the devil is in the details. What when people are told that the aggressive AOC timetable would cause gasoline to go to $10/gal and electricity to 30-40 cents/kWh? (numbers are examples, but I think realistic)

Gasoline? There’d be no gasoline

Of course there would be no gasoline, that's the whole point of getting rid of fossil fuel.
 
In other news: America's Oil And Gas Reserves Double With Massive New Permian Discovery

https://www.forbes.com/sites/arielc...ouble-with-massive-new-permian-discovery/amp/

It looks like cheap fossil fuels will be with us for quite some time.

The reality is that the US is now the #1 oil and gas producer in the world, with plenty of reserves. People will be reluctant to spend billions more in taxpayer money on pie in the sky when energy is cheap and likely to remain so for the foreseeable future.

Yeah, if only there were something that could be done to lower the cost of some of these and raise the cost of the others :consternation1:

I guess it's impossible. Efficient markets, Pareto, blah blah blah.

Nope. The government can't do anything.
Well, French government tried to do something.
But yes, government can easily reduce health/education costs and increase cost of energy at the same time.
 
Another issue is that of course many people will be supportive of the idea of the Green New Deal in principle. But the devil is in the details. What when people are told that the aggressive AOC timetable would cause gasoline to go to $10/gal and electricity to 30-40 cents/kWh? (numbers are examples, but I think realistic)

Gasoline? There’d be no gasoline

Of course there would be no gasoline, that's the whole point of getting rid of fossil fuel.

I think unicorn piss is similar to gasoline. But it’s renewable.
 
https://earther.gizmodo.com/new-poll-shows-basically-everyone-likes-alexandria-ocas-1831158171

[YOUTUBE]v=3-4Bffxoevk[/YOUTUBE]

It would mean more jobs for non-wealthy people, it would mean cheaper energy in the future, and it would mean less economic damage from climate change in the far future. Even among fascists conservatives, this idea is favored.

So, of course, all Republicans and most Democrats (namely the conservadems) will be against this. They aren't interested in doing what the people want, they only want to do what campaign donors want.

It is an online poll which you would expect to attract people interested in alternative power. That being said I don't doubt that it would be popular with the broader population, perhaps just behind an infrastructure program in popularity.

However, as I always caution, alternative power is not ready to be anything but an auxiliary carbon reducing power source. It can only reduce the carbon emissions for the six to eight hours that it runs. It can't replace base power generating, which currently is majority coal and minority nuclear. And it can't replace the large gas-fired peak generating stations either, because the power peak consumption is after the workday is over and PV solar panels and wind aren't producing anywhere near capacity. We still will need full capacity base power and peak power generation from natural gas, coal and nuclear.

And no, there is no miracle battery technology that will change this equation. The current best battery technology, LiFePO4, costs more than three times more than the PV solar panels over the lifetime of the system. And PV panels have only just reached cost parity with coal on a kW basis but they can only generate at full capacity for eight hours a day meaning you have to have 2.5 to 4 times the PV generated kW installed to replace coal and nuclear with power storage of 1.5 to 3 times the kWh of storage. These numbers have to be on the higher side to allow for cloudy days and at this, it wouldn't negate the need for a full fossil fuel back up and a dramatically beefed up power distribution for the US. This is frightfully expensive.

Once again, the only cost-effective alternative, carbon-free, base power generating technology that can be installed today is nuclear. It has problems that are largely the result of stepping on our own dicks. We have stopped effectively any research into new safer and more efficient generations of reactors. We have abandoned a perfectly viable storage system for nuclear waste because it is only 99.98% safe while tolerating coal-fired power plants that emit radioactive waste into the environment daily.

The construction of nuclear power plants in the US has huge cost overruns and delays. I can't help but believe that many of these problems are due to the way that we finance and build the plants. Our model of for-profit monopolies for generating power rewards companies for construction overruns and delays by allowing these costs into the rate base paying the company as much as ten percent a year for screwing up in the construction of the plant. The production of power should be by a non-profit government held entity.

We should have a standard reactor and power station designs that incorporate all possibilities of secure structural design for soil conditions and earthquake zone. That is building all of the plants as if they are in earthquake zone 5 and on a spread foundation with or without piles. Having a standard design and only one or two sizes of plants, say 600 and 1200 MW, means that we aren't re-inventing the whole plant every time, so the different plants can share operating experience with one another, and can provide a solid base for incremental improvements.

Reactors design research should be concentrated on inherently safe designs that don't require cooling water in normal or in emergencies, molten salt reactors for a start. Future reactors should be gas cooled, not the thermally inefficient water and steam cooled that requires the huge containment structure. A hot gas turbine's exhaust has enough extractable heat for secondary applications like cracking water for hydrogen production for powering automobiles, for example. The reactor design that is picked will be built and installed in all of the new plants no matter who builds the reactor with the reactor builders bidding on the same design.
 
And no, there is no miracle battery technology that will change this equation. The current best battery technology, LiFePO4, costs more than three times more than the PV solar panels over the lifetime of the system. And PV panels have only just reached cost parity with coal on a kW basis but they can only generate at full capacity for eight hours a day meaning you have to have 2.5 to 4 times the PV generated kW installed to replace coal and nuclear with power storage of 1.5 to 3 times the kWh of storage. These numbers have to be on the higher side to allow for cloudy days and at this, it wouldn't negate the need for a full fossil fuel back up and a dramatically beefed up power distribution for the US. This is frightfully expensive.
You assume that power use is constant during day/night. It is not and does not have to be. Also, as far as cost of generating concerned, PV have reached the parity already, so, it's done and not a factor anymore. The only problem is cost of batteries and to cover for night use you need 20kwh battery per person which costs $1 per w*h (current prices for lithium batteries), so it will cost you $20K. That battery with careful use will last 10 years. so it's $2K a year for 100% solar electricity, no nukes, no coal, no gas turbines.

This is a worst case scenario calculation using off the shelf batteries costs, current electricity use and being constant throughout 24 hours.
In reality everything can be improved without much effort by simply not wasting electricity by a factor of 2 at least. The only limiting factor is amount of lithium, but it's not the only element which can be used for batteries and it's not consumable.
 
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