Difference between Catholics and "men" is that "men" don't have high priests and popes they agree to be perfect and exemplary and representative in their maleness, who then rape children/women. "Men" don't have the choice but to be born male and remain male (at least biologically). "Men" have no codified doctrines of maleness, no matter how much you may try to label something you dislike "male culture".
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What Do Men Think It Means To Be A Man?
- Thread starter RavenSky
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Cheerful Charlie
Contributor
No codified doctrine for being a real American man? Maybe that is our problem.
Maybe we atheists should write one?
1. Don't commit stupid crimes.
2. Be kind to small animals.
3. Don't rape.
4. Don't be a pederast.
Maybe we atheists should write one?
1. Don't commit stupid crimes.
2. Be kind to small animals.
3. Don't rape.
4. Don't be a pederast.
Cheerful Charlie
Contributor
It's simply that in America, we have such a problem with toxic males that need a good bitch slapping. You can bitch slap the Aussie toxic males.
WAB
Contributor
It's simply that in America, we have such a problem with toxic males that need a good bitch slapping.
I agree. There are so many swaggering, chest-beating men whom I have seen show fear and literally back down when being confronted (even by me, thanks wholly to my appearance and loud voice). I'm not the one to do the bitch-slapping, since, as I've confessed, I could be beaten up by a chipmunk; but weak men (who are then ones who pretend the most to be strong) are often put in their place by much stronger, more physically capable, and far more rational men.
At least, this has been my experience in life.
ruby sparks
Contributor
What Charlie and you say makes me (again) curious about whether there is a markedly (or even slightly) different form of 'male culture' and/or if you like, 'what men think it means to be a man' in, for example, the USA (where most posters here live) than, say, here in the UK, or in other places. Are men more.....'masculine' (see also: 'swaggering' perhaps)....forward (perhaps in their courting/sexual behaviour)........
In general terms, obviously. Trends. Norms. Expectations, etc. I do not see much of it here, for example, in this forum.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting men here are angels by any stretch of the imagination, or that women (for example, to talk about heteros only for a moment) don't face similar problems.
I have, for most of my life, gotten most of my impressions via tv and films you see, often fiction, and I suppose I detect a difference, but that might not represent real life.
WAB
Contributor
IMO, the USA is diseased by a corrupt and malevolent sense of what it is to be a man. Just look at American television. They are ALL bad-asses, and all of them hold their gun (puke) sideways, to look even more badass. It's a national cancer.
I live in Arizona, the great bastion of men who walk around with guns in holsters. Men here see everyone as a potential threat. It's toxic.
Which reminds me: why was my post the last in your (ruby's) thread about masculine toxicity? There is SO much more to be said about that.
https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?16278-When-does-masculinity-become-toxic
Cheerful Charlie
Contributor
Feminazi! Feminazi! Hur! Hur! Rush said "Faminazi!". Say feminazi again, Rush! Hur! Hur! Hur!
We have had a number of sub-cultures of toxic masculinity in the US for quite some time. Patriarchal Christians that take 1 Timothy 2:11-15 seriously. Right wingers like Wretch Limpbrain that have played the toxic masculinity game for decades. Gangsta rapper morons. Abusive, perpetually angry men, bullies and wife beaters. The type who is seemingly kind and soft spoken and polite but has no real regard for women, minorities, or anybody not a protestant, conservative male. The type who make good Republican ratfucking Senators. Psychopaths and sociopaths. Drunks and meth heads. The young male swine who think taking a women out to dinner means she is obligated to give them sex, and gets angry when she doesn't.
There is a lot to this toxic masculinity problem. Besides murderous incels serial rapists and child porn producers.
We have had a number of sub-cultures of toxic masculinity in the US for quite some time. Patriarchal Christians that take 1 Timothy 2:11-15 seriously. Right wingers like Wretch Limpbrain that have played the toxic masculinity game for decades. Gangsta rapper morons. Abusive, perpetually angry men, bullies and wife beaters. The type who is seemingly kind and soft spoken and polite but has no real regard for women, minorities, or anybody not a protestant, conservative male. The type who make good Republican ratfucking Senators. Psychopaths and sociopaths. Drunks and meth heads. The young male swine who think taking a women out to dinner means she is obligated to give them sex, and gets angry when she doesn't.
There is a lot to this toxic masculinity problem. Besides murderous incels serial rapists and child porn producers.
WAB
Contributor
Agreed to all, but like I mentioned, there was a thread about male toxicity: I linked to it (see my prior post). I thought ruby's thread was strangely foreshortened. It's a great topic, and deserves more responses. Tell the truth, I'm really surprised it ended so soon.
Learner
Veteran Member
Vunerables can also (in situations) be "protected" by masculines-types from the not-so-nice masculine-types. (not forgetting)
bilby
Fair dinkum thinkum
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It's simply that in America, we have such a problem with toxic males that need a good bitch slapping. You can bitch slap the Aussie toxic males.
Is he going to come here, or do we need to send them to Canada?
Cheerful Charlie
Contributor
Let him straighten out the toxic Canadian males then. Who can handle the Saudis?
bilby
Fair dinkum thinkum
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SAC?
I don't see any short term way of eliminating toxic masculinity from Arabia other than a massive thermonuclear strike.
Actually, you may need to take the same approach in the Western Suburbs of Sydney, Outer suburban Melbourne, and most of South East Queensland.
WAB
Contributor
Of course. Good point, Learner.
Cheerful Charlie
Contributor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemonic_masculinity
In gender studies, hegemonic masculinity is part of R. W. Connell's gender order theory, which recognizes multiple masculinities that vary across time, culture and the individual. Hegemonic masculinity is defined as a practice that legitimizes men's dominant position in society and justifies the subordination of women, and other marginalized ways of being a man.[1] Conceptually, hegemonic masculinity proposes to explain how and why men maintain dominant social roles over women, and other gender identities, which are perceived as "feminine" in a given society.
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In gender studies, hegemonic masculinity is part of R. W. Connell's gender order theory, which recognizes multiple masculinities that vary across time, culture and the individual. Hegemonic masculinity is defined as a practice that legitimizes men's dominant position in society and justifies the subordination of women, and other marginalized ways of being a man.[1] Conceptually, hegemonic masculinity proposes to explain how and why men maintain dominant social roles over women, and other gender identities, which are perceived as "feminine" in a given society.
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WAB
Contributor
Yeah, but the Oils... makes good on everything, mate.
If you don't listen to this song, all the way through, then may your socks be tainted with disteria, and your whelsome be stricken by Delivelitia.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
I like the evolutionary psychological theory that most men aren't necessary for reproduction. Since humans have evolved to raise kids communally. It doesn't really matter that much who is the father. So women have every incentive to only have sex with the best men. Women also want love, so the effect isn't completely extreme. But it will have an effect. This will effect behaviour. So men will have more of an incentive to be aggressive, to take risks, to be brave, be dominant... etc. There's a high yield/high return on taking risks for a man. Not so much for a woman. Women's primary incentive is to be liked by people around them.
This is why nuclear families are so problematic. It creates a two person "tribe". So women aren't going to get the social network they've evolved for. But worse, it puts pressure on the man to be something he's probably not, an alpha type. That's going to lead to all kinds of insecurities and unhelpful, and often probably dangerous behaviour.
A man always leading the tribe is less problematic than a man always leading a family. The tribe will select the best man. Since the top men will try harder than the top women, the leaders will always be men. But there's no reason to think that an average man will be a better leader than an average woman.
I think me have evolved for keeping tabs on each other. To keep them from, let's say, hurt women. This mechanic is out of play in nuclear families. And can explain how nuclear families leads to patriarchal oppression. I think men naturally have violent tendencies that we need other men to control.
In short, it's the nuclear family ideal that fucks it up for us.
ruby sparks
Contributor
Yes. Everything is nunaced and multi-faceted.
Worth noting (again, I think I posted something similar elsewhere, possibly in the toxic masculinity thread) that many women (in fact I think it's fair to call it a widespread tendency even if it's not at all universal) exercise preferences for stronger, more masculine men (and/or more high status men, which brings in preferences for more competitive men) and have done for most of recorded human history, and are still doing it today. It even extends to men who fight in wars for goodness sake. The saying 'women like a man in uniform' is for example borne out in recent polls.
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Well, you may want to ask yourself why it makes you feel that. Because defining the "culture" of a gender/race by only the bad behaviour of some of that gender/race says nothing of anyone else of that gender/race trying or not trying to change that behaviour.
ruby sparks
Contributor
I agree.
If only I could get to to see that Identity Politics is similarly nuanced and variegated...............
