No, because a small portion of men could very well be responsible for that 81%, while the vast majority of men are not. You don't know either way just from the report that 81% of women reporting said this. And that's before any examination into their sampling method, how "sexual harrassment" is being defined, etc.
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What Do Men Think It Means To Be A Man?
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No, because a small portion of men could very well be responsible for that 81%, while the vast majority of men are not. You don't know either way just from the report that 81% of women reporting said this. And that's before any examination into their sampling method, how "sexual harrassment" is being defined, etc.
Exactly. The rate of victimization basically inevitably will exceed the percentage of the population doing the victimizing. It doesn't really matter what type of victimization we are talking about. To think otherwise would mean you either believe there's only a small pool of victims from which all victimizers pick from, or that each victimizer only has at most one victim, or some combination thereof.
There are more houses burgled than there are burglars.
There are more women harassed than there are harassers.
There are more murder victims than there are murderers.
J842P
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No it doesn't. From what I understand, the vast majority of crime more generally is committed by a relatively small proportion of people in a population. Maybe sexual harassment is different, but it is an empirical question.
laughing dog
Contributor
Nothing you have written rebuts it strongly suggests to the mentally aware that the problem goes way beyond a small portion of men. That conclusion does not require that there is only one different man per instance. Nor does it require that a majority of men are harassers. And you ignore the reality that part of the problem (and the point of the OP) is that "regular" men are not stepping up to stop it.
My guess is that you have not really talked to women about this. Most women I know can point to at least instances of sexual harassment or assault from different men.
Yeah, that's right, take a play out of the misogynist's handbook and quibble about what these women really experienced. After all, they are only women, what do they know about their lives?
zorq
Veteran Member
To be honest, I care. In fact my first thought when reading the title of this thread was "What do you mean by 'what does it mean to be a man?'"
I was pleased when I read to the point in this thread with the little spat about the apparently gender neutral list that indicates "masculinity." Because the thread title spurred in me the desire to try to triangulate myself in terms masculinity. When I ask myself the question, "Do you feel like a man?" I have no hesitation in answering in the affirmative. But I had a difficult time defining aspects of myself which indicate maleness as opposed to femaleness, and NOT responsible and mature as opposed to irresponsible and juvenile.
Is there a test we can use to distinguish "men" in a meaningful way?
Interesting that you would try to go there, when there is no quibbling over what these women really experienced in the text you quoted.
I think in today's and age the only way to define what it means to be a man is that they identify as men.
Harry Bosch
Contributor
Could you provide an example? I know a lot of people who are full of shit. I still prefer to give them a voice. I still support them.
laughing dog
Contributor
I'm not the one who wrote "And that's before any examination into their sampling method, how "sexual harrassment" is being defined, etc." - you did. My guess is you didn't even bother to read the cited article, or even bother to think that was just one example of the extent of the problem.
bilby
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steve_bank
Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
There Is a hormonal difference that affects aggression and strength.
Other than that you are just plain ignorant. Men are not compassionate? Please. You must be watching too many Hollywood movies that accentuate ritual male violence and aggression.
Women can compete if they want to and be aggressive. Many do not know that in her day Lucille Ball was aggressive and competitive and became head of Paramount. She became a Hollywood mogul.
Yes there has been male issues with women entering work. But whay men see in the media everytime a woman has problems it is always due to men.
Sadly Hillary fell back on that excuse to some degree for her political failure. From the Benghazi hearings she to me was impressive, every bit equal to men going toe to toe. Tough, smart, and aggressive.
Yet in the campaign she exhibited none of that and let Trump walk all over her.
Women can't say they have a right to opportunity and then expect to have it made easy.
We see it over and over in the Hollywood revelations of late. Why do women put themselves in potentially compromisng situations? Salma Hayek said tearfully in interview when she refused sexual advances from a director he made her do a lesbian scene. Why did;t she just say kiss my ass and walk off?
To work in a competitive environment one has to be competitive. Are we supposed to cater to women beyond normal workplace civility, ethics, and etiquette?
I watched Joy Behar on The View say it is time for men to start looking out for women. So we are back to what women wanted out of? Male dominance and lack of independence?
Thumpalumpacus
Alive in the Superunknown
And "do the right thing even when it hurts you."
Which isn't a
out of the "misogynist playbook", but nice try. You keep trying to snipe and failing. That must get frustrating for you.
ruby sparks
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ruby sparks
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And not an easy one to answer, apparently, partly because of difficulties in obtaining reliable estimates and partly because of a shortage of studies.
So with both of those as important caveats to keep in mind, I found this:
We Asked 615 Men About How They Conduct Themselves at Work
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/28/upshot/sexual-harassment-survey-600-men.html
So 1 in 25 men (4%) self-identified (anonymously) as harassers.
12% self-reported engaging in at least some (3) of the actions deemed to be 'objectionable'. When 'telling sexual stories or jokes that some might find offensive' is excluded, this went down to 6%.
38% of blue collar workers and 24% of white collar workers admitted to engaging in at least one of the behaviours deemed to be objectionable or potentially objectionable.
Allowing for under-reporting, it's possible these figures are artificially low. On the other hand, they include behaviour which could be said to fall below what might reasonably be described as 'harassment' so they may also be considered high.
Anyhows, at least the study/poll offers some numbers.
It seems to me that whatever way we slice it, it's very likely a small minority of men who are harassers*. Which imo is what makes statements like 'men need to step up and take responsibility for what they perpetuate in the world' deeply problematical, and I have no qualms about using the word deeply.
Added to which, there is recent evidence that a hitherto shortage of studies into harassment/assaults on males (by men or women) or by females (on men or women) indicates that they are both much higher than was commonly supposed, however counterintuitive it seems, especially when prison environments are included, albeit still lower than for men on women. Furthermore, when the criteria are widened to gender harassment/bullying/abuse in general, it seems to be accepted that for instance schoolgirls are as 'bad' as schoolboys (when considering behaviours towards both boys and girls which has a sexually pejorative aspect) albeit in different ways. I can provide links to material I have read on the above if requested.
All the above taken into account, the question still remains as to whether men should try to do more to alleviate the problem. So while it might be awry to say, "men need to step up and take responsibility for the burglaries they perpetuate in the world", it could still be good to say, "if 80% of half the population are getting burgled by at least some members of the other half, it might be useful for the other half generally to pay more attention to that and try to do something about it", and possibly ease back somewhat on the sometimes incessant 'my half of the population gets burgled too' because (a) it's about half as often and (b) not as severe. And because women, it seems, suffer this particular problem disproportionately, the simplistic 'let's not make any group distinctions between the two halves' is of limited use, particularly when it is derived from a position that is bankrupt because it is inconsistently applied to suit.
in other words, it shouldn't be that hard for men to at least offer some, or some more, support (how much is obligated or reasonable is up for grabs) even just in words on an online forum, even if one has reservations (and I have reservations, and many women and indeed some feminists have reservations about things like metoo) instead of mainly focusing on objecting to the particular propositions or aspects of them that one sees as unfair. The OP article in the 'men need to step up' thread is a case in point. In that, the writer makes it explicitly clear that she is only referring to a small minority of men and that she is explicitly not disregarding the suffering of male victims.
* In the 'west' at least. For comparison, this study revealed that 64% of Egyptian men, for example, self-identified as harassers (and the figures were similarly high in Morocco, Lebanon and Palestine):
64% of men admit to harassing women in Egypt’s streets: report
https://www.egyptindependent.com/64-men-admit-harassing-women-egypts-streets-report/
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For reference:
Actual inner-city gang culture is toxically masculine. And many of the people in it know this - the main reason I don't have stronger ties to an actual gang is that the members said "No, you're going to be somebody one day, you don't belong here".
ruby sparks
Contributor
There is some truth in that, and there is a potential contradiction, yes. But it can be overplayed. There isn't necessarily a contradiction either in principle (depending on the specific argument) or in the way it plays out in the real world.
Woman (in general) are smaller and physically weaker than men (in general) and may have different temperaments, urges and dispositions, in which biology and physiology play a role. Also, they live in what is still to some extent a 'man's world' with 'men's rules' having more sway (thankfully much less so in most developed societies). These are things that to a great extent, individual women can't suddenly make equal. As such, I personally feel there is room to make distinctions in terms of outcomes and expectations when discussing whether it is reasonable to ask everyone in society to compete on completely equal terms. For example, try hypothetically substituting 'old people' for 'women' in a version of the burglary analogy above, as in, "if 80% of pensioners are getting (or have been) burgled by at least some non-aged people, it might be good for non-aged people to pay more attention to that and try to do something about it."
There will be exceptions of course, and a spectrum. Some pensioners will be better able to handle a burglar than some non-aged people.
And as an aside, one could take RVonse's apparent route and just say that being old is not much more than tough shit in an unfair world.
Which of course is true, up to a point.
I do agree that some women seem to want to have it both ways, to have the benefits of equality while retaining some of the benefits of inequality.
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Lion IRC
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You forgot include;
A woman in the office (or park or restaurant or apartment building) who joins in
A woman who laughs when he sees it
A woman who sees it and doesn’t think it’s a problem
A woman who sees it and does nothing
A woman who sees it and doesn’t even see it.
A woman who wishes she was getting some of that attention - 'appropriate' sexual overture first moves.
laughing dog
Contributor
Regardless of your intent, it is. There was no relevant reason to bring that up.
I realize that responding with sniping with pathetic passive aggressive insults is how you deal with unpleasant truths. However that does not change the truth.