Who did the Original Sin? God or man?

[4321lynx]

According to the bible, God is the Author of evil. If A&E failed their so called test of obedience, it is because God made it happen.

I quoted this in another thread recently, but here goes:

There was a young man of Mauritius
Who said 'I'm becoming suspicious
It was God let us in
For Original Sin --
If so, the whole system is vicious'.

T. Lindsay

 

[Learner]

Fear not for there is a plan
to be rid of the sins of man
The system won't last
be a thing of the past
The words of the Holy Lamb

 

[WAB]

Learner,

A&E were supposed to have sex. There was no other reason for Eve to have been created.*** Whatever pastor, reverend or whomever has given you the idea that Original Sin is sex, has led you down the primrose path of total silliness. Original Sin, as it is taught by most denoms, is that all humans, by virtue of the fact that A&E disobeyed God's enjoinder not to eat of the magical fruit, are sinners.

Sounds nice and traditional , the version taught by denoms, but is that not ..er.. silly to you either? If it is, I may agree ...Magical fruit . Its the way you tell em.

A&E were supposed to have sex.

So soon ? I would have said ...reading that they had to leave Eden all of a sudden etc.


There's quite a bit to read and post but I'll do my best (popping in and out)

Yes, the story seems a tad silly to me now. I must be truthful, even if it winds me up in a heap of trouble with the Big Guy. Magical fruit does sound blasphemous, but I don't mean to be. After all, it did have supernatural (hence magical) properties.

Yes, I can only assume that since God prepared for Adam a mate, a female, and endowed them with the capacity for sexual congress and reproduction as a pair, that the obvious intention was for them to copulate and reproduce. "Be fruitful and multiply" need not only apply to the lower creatures. There is no indication that A&E were children; and what purpose would a marriage be when there were no other humans in existence?

I can only wonder what denomination you are, Learner. You don't have to tell me of course, but it might help for us to have a clearer conversation about these things.

Quite frankly, information about what Original Sin means is so easily accessible (though it is not literally scriptural), that I can't help but wonder why a person of the Christian faith would associate it with sex. Naturally, though, fornication, adultery, and sodomy are sins, but they are not Original Sin. Original Sin is a condition, an inheritance; those other things are acts. Untoward and ungodly thoughts are also sins, though they are not acts.

Some of the church fathers, drawing from Paul (and maybe Christ, I don't remember, though I have read all the Gospels in at least two translations, several times through! My memory is shot...) even considered melancholic states to be sinful.

What I really object to in all of this is imputing guilt to someone for a condition that is not their fault. Even though we inherit Original Sin, the way one would inherit the gene for blue eyes, we are somehow blamed for being sinners.

In my view, there are few things less rational, or more an affront to innocence, than infant baptism. How "benevolent" does God appear if we truly believe an infant needs to be "cleansed" of sin, lest it suffer God's wrath and be damned should it die in the cradle? It is beyond the pale.

Even though a great many theologians have updated their view on whether or not unbaptized infants go to hell - in the positive - there are still to this day some believers who think that if you don't baptize your child and they die in infancy, then they are damned. The notion is nearly as unconscionable as the idea of eternal torture itself.

 

[WAB]

Fear not for there is a plan
to be rid of the sins of man
The system won't last
be a thing of the past
The words of the Holy Lamb

Learner, although I'm tryin',
your limerick I'm just not buyin',
for the simple fact
that when Christ comes back
He won't be a Lamb, but a Lion.

 

[DBT]

According to the bible, God is the Author of evil. If A&E failed their so called test of obedience, it is because God made it happen.

I quoted this in another thread recently, but here goes:

There was a young man of Mauritius
Who said 'I'm becoming suspicious
It was God let us in
For Original Sin --
If so, the whole system is vicious'.

T. Lindsay

As described in Genesis....vicious indeed.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

So original sin is perverted sex? Did Adam and Eve have perverted sex?

I mean't sex is not neccessarily wrong . My previous post, what I mean't and "should " have said : it "depends".

No "graphic" detail regarding Adam and Eve's encounter.

If not necessarily wrong, the in could be right. In biblicasl language then, sex can be good or evil and A & E could not have know of anything good or evil till after they had consumed that knowledge from the tree of knowledge. You are putting the cart before the horse.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Fear not for there is a plan
to be rid of the sins of man
The system won't last
be a thing of the past
The words of the Holy Lamb

Learner, although I'm tryin',
your limerick I'm just not buyin',
for the simple fact
that when Christ comes back
He won't be a Lamb, but a Lion.

An intolerant lion who, if not loved by all, kills off those who reject him.

Luke 19:27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.

Qur'an 8:7 "Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: `Wipe the infidels out to the last.'"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFx7WFVP1FI


Regards
DL

 

[Learner]

An intolerant lion who, if not loved by all, kills off those who reject him.

Luke 19:27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.

Jesus was not talking about hinself.

Luke 19: 11,12,14

11 And as they heard these things, He (Jesus) added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Who invented deceiving serpents?

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

An intolerant lion who, if not loved by all, kills off those who reject him.

Luke 19:27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.

Jesus was not talking about hinself.

Luke 19: 11,12,14

11 And as they heard these things, He (Jesus) added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

If Jesus is Yahweh's second third, to think Yahweh, who only has two options, heaven and hell, is tolerant, would be quite the stretch of imagination.

Jesus said, "Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Who invented deceiving serpents?

If there is a supernatural creator, then there can only be one answer.

Liars will put a name to that God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjRy29R4gP8


Regards
DL

 

[WAB]

This calls for another play. I've written a few of these and scattered them about. I intend at some point to cover most of the big events in the Bible, you know, just to ruffle God's feathers and assure my damnation. Nota: The play is a tad long, but on topic, and funny as hell, I might add.

************************************

THE UNPERSONING OF TELEK; or, The Serpent

(A play in one scene)

Dramatis Personae:

God, Creator of the Universe (Lee J. Cobb, deceased, but revived for this role)
Telek, an angel (Dominations) (Ben Stiller)
Shenkel, an angel (Principalities) (Harpo Marx, deceased, but revived for this role)



Scene: God's office. His Ultimate Worthiness sits on a comfy cushioned swivel chair (something He will grant the world at a much later date but is now keeping to Himself in the mysterious council of His own Will). He is alone, except for Shenkel, the attendant angel on duty, who stands with wings furled to the right side of the big door. God is playing with a machine that looks like a laptop, but is in fact much more advanced. He eventually growls and closes it, clears His voice.

God: Shenkel, go and get Telek.

Shenkel goes out the door, and follows Telek in. Telek looks self-assured, even arrogant, and his face looks smug. He is dressed as a man-in-black, with black suit and mirrored sunglasses. Telek stops a few feet in front of the desk, which, naturally, is very large, ennabling God to look down on Telek.

God: (Irritated) Take off the ridiculous eyewear. I've told your department how many times those are for men, and not for a good while, or have I not?

Telek: (Removing sunglasses) Sorry, Lord, I...

God: Listen, I've got a job for you. It's a big job, nothing for beginners, which is why I picked you, Telek. I see you've been doing well. Got good marks in everything but pity. Shame that, but at the same time it's what I need for this job.

Telek: I...

God: (More irritated) Talk when I ask you something, Telek. I know you think I got eternity, so what does it matter you should take up my time, but there's a great deal you angels don't know. I could go on and on. But as for this job, it will require you on the one hand to serve me, which is good; but on the other you must become my enemy. That's the bad part, since already you know what happens to my enemies.

God pauses, as if waiting a response. He sees that Telek will say nothing until asked a question. God rolls His eyes.

God: I meant at that juncture that you should respond, but you didn't, which is good, but at the same time concerns me, because to do this job you will need to learn some chutzpah. Can you show me a little defiance, just a little, mind you, don't get too much carried away.

Telek: Um...Alright. I'm not too sure I want this job, Lord. Maybe you should...no, alright. You should pick som...

God: Good! But like I told you, don't go getting carried away. I haven't had breakfast yet. I like your mettle, Telek, and I can sense you're the angel for the job. Now here it is. I need for you to listen close, Telek. I see your thoughts wandering. Try to pay attention, as I haven't got all morning to explain this, and like I said, this is a big job, a real doozy. You might call it the Mother of all Jobs.

Telek: The mother of al...?

God: (Running out of patience) An expression, is all. They'll be saying it a lot, those people down there. They will love it. But let's move on. As you know so far there are two people, and only two, down there. Adam and Eve. Well, I need more people. And I set it up so there's only one way I get more people. I see your thoughts are wondering what is this? Let's just say those two young people have something you angels haven't got, and they need to use it to get the ball rolling. It's technical, but if you angels were ever to bother noticing such things besides how nice your wings look in the moonlight, you'd see that the ones that creep upon the earth have got the same thing, well, a lot of them, let's say. But none of this is important. All for you to know is that you need to talk to Eve and tell her to go ahead and eat the fruit I told them not to touch. Don't bother with Adam, because he's something of a putz and he's going to do whatever Eve wants him to do, on account of his...but nevermind about that...

Telek: Excuse me, Lor...

God: Listen, angel Know-it-All, I realize how it sounds, trust me, but I got it all worked out. You see Telek, they won't defy me without your help because quite frankly they are too naive, and as you know I can be somewhat off-putting. To you I look simple. To them, I don't look so simple.

Telek: Couldn't you just tel...

God: If I told them to eat the fruit I told them already not to eat, surely I will look like a shlemiel will I not? No, don't answer. Just listen, Telek. Already you begin to annoy me, which is good! You annoy me nearly as much as that loudmouth, Satan. I can see your thoughts are wandering, as if there is some way out of this job. Well, don't think so much, because you're going to do the job. And I can see you're going to do it well, in an effort to please me, which unfortunately for you will be the case on one hand and on the other, not so much.

Telek begins to respond, but God waves His hand and the angel is instantly turned into a snake. A large one with legs and feet. Telek does not recognize the physical change immediately, but when he goes to speak, he realizes that his words are hissy and sibilant.

Telek: Holy moly... (He lifts one of his legs, stares at it, does the same with the other side) I'm hideoussss. She will be too ssscared to lissss...

God: She will listen, because I have already put a dream in the girl's head, and she will welcome you. Listen, just do the job. You talk Eve into eating the fruit, and you go away. Unfortunately for you the legs and feet will be removed once the job is finished, but you'll manage. Also you get to eat a lot. Oh, and I should mention, the name Telek is no longer your name. I will give it to some later on. Not a big problem for you, what with a name like that. (Frowns) Shenkel, show it out and make sure it does the job.

Shenkel opens the door and gestures for the Serpent to exit before him. Shenkel follows the Serpent out. God opens the laptop again, and says to Himself:

God: Now, back to this Hitchens. A goy and a smartypants on top of that, we have. (God rubs His chin, rolls back His eyes) Now what should We use as a title of that book he will write...let me see now...Ah! (Begins typing, a smile spreading across his face) Oy, will that one be in for it.

Curtain.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Thanks for this.

Regards
DL