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Eliminating Qualia

That which generates is categorically superior to that which it generates.

The word "superior" in that sentence has no meaning.

The brain generates a decision making device.

It makes decisions using ideas in the mind.

If you generate a decision making device you most certainly can be directed by the decisions made by that device.

There is no reason to think you can't.

What is generated is therefore a subcategory of the generator, part and parcel to it. They can not be separate “things.”

Nonsense.

My heater generates heat.

My heater and heat are two different things.

Heat is not a subcategory of the device.

“Experience” must be exhaustively defined. You have chosen no such definition, favoring instead equivocation at every step.

Experience means one thing has awareness of another thing.

If there is no awareness you do not have experience. You have mere reaction.

What needs an exhaustive explanation is how a brain generates that which experiences and how it generates the things experienced.
 
The word "superior" in that sentence has no meaning.

You are not allowed to talk about words and their meaning. Case in point:

The brain generates a decision making device.

The “device” you’re referring to is the illusion of a bird in a cage. The illusion of the bird in the cage is not a “device.”

Stop equivocating terms.

Heat is not a subcategory of the device.

Yes, it is, unless you are talking about a completely different context of the concept of “heat” removed from the discussion of what happens when you turn a heater on.

Nor is “heat” a “device.” The heater (brain) is the device. “Heat” is not.

Nor is “Heat” a “thing” in the same sense that a physical object (like a “device”) is a “thing” or a BRAIN is a “thing.” Heat in this context is “that which the heater generates.”

They cannot be separated. The heat is only generated when the heater is active. When the heater is not active, it is no longer a heater, it is merely a collection of metal coils and electrical components.

You are conflating form and function in order to justify starting with a pet conclusion and then working backwards for the proof.

To say a heater is a thing that generates another thing (or worse, something truly assinine like a heater creates “heat presentations” for the “heat” to experience, but the heater does not experience the heat) is just sophomoric drivel.

Experience means one thing has awareness of another thing.

Equivocation of “thing” once again, but set that aside since you always do, it is not possible that the brain create both “presentations” AND the “thing” it’s creating presentations for and it not be aware of either the presentations or the “thing” it’s generating presentations for, so by your own still not exhaustive definition, brain has awareness of another “thing” (that is not a thing in the same sense you’re equivocating) and thus experiences.

Q.F.E.D.
 
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It is an arbitrary transformation into something completely different.

Again setting aside the question of whether or not 'something completely different' is 'created', what is an 'arbitrary' transformation? Are you sure you mean arbitrary? As in haphazard, random or erratic?

Mix up with the quote, Mr Untermensche made that remark
 
It is not arbitrary. Not at all. The subjective brain generated experience music is based on the vibration of air that is related to external objects and their activity, this is information acquired by the senses. Information, by self definition, is not arbitrary.

You have no understanding of evolution.

The external world cannot force an evolving brain to create anything.

All brain products are arbitrary creations.

Vibrating air has nothing to do with the experience of sound.

EM radiation has nothing to do with the experience of color.

Skin damage has nothing to do with the experience of pain.

All experiences are arbitrary creations of the brain.

You are making up stuff to suite yourself.

At no time did I say or imply that the external world forces an evolving brain to create. However, organisms either adapt to environmental conditions or they suffer the consequences.

History is full of species that have gone extinct due to a failure to adapt.

Brains have evolved to gather information about their environment and respond to it. This is not forced. It is an evolved function.

You have no understanding of evolution.

Somebody sure hasn't. Judging by your remarks, it is quite clear on who that happens to be. ;)
 
What do you think forced evolving brains to create the experiences they create?

How come vibrating air causes a human to make a "sound" but a bat to make a "sight"?

It's the same stimulus.

Really?

Light is vibrating air? An the same stimulus as sound? It’s good to know your physics is better than your philosophy.
 
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To experience requires having something to experience with.

"Mind" is just a word to fill in for something we do not understand: "That which experiences".

I know I am experiencing. It is the only thing I cannot doubt.

Therefore I must have a mind.

A mind cannot just exist. It must be created in some way by some thing.

That is the brain.

Ok, I agree with a lot of that, but how do you know you have a mind?

It is experienced. Otherwise it could not be known to exist.

So what is it that experiences mind?
 
You are not allowed to talk about words and their meaning. Case in point:

As I said. No definition. Pretending to know something.

The “device” you’re referring to is the illusion of a bird in a cage. The illusion of the bird in the cage is not a “device.”

You just used the "device" to put those ideas together. Device simply means "something that does something".

Heat is not a subcategory of the device.

Yes, it is, unless you are talking about a completely different context of the concept of “heat” removed from the discussion of what happens when you turn a heater on.

Nor is “heat” a “device.” The heater (brain) is the device. “Heat” is not.

True. All phenomena are not the same thing.

Other than that you have no point. You worthless ramblings about "subcategories" is a piece of nonsense pulled from your backside.

They cannot be separated. The heat is only generated when the heater is active. When the heater is not active, it is no longer a heater, it is merely a collection of metal coils and electrical components.

They are ALWAYS separated.

The heat is ALWAYS a completely different thing from the device that creates it.

All you are saying is there cannot be heat with something to create it.

And that is true. There cannot be a mind without a brain to generate it.

Experience means one thing has awareness of another thing.

Equivocation of “thing” once again..

You don't seem to understand what the word "equivocating" means.

It does not mean using a general word because the specifics are completely unknown.

You have no point anywhere.

Just a lot of sloppy understandings and poor usage of words.
 
To experience requires having something to experience with.

"Mind" is just a word to fill in for something we do not understand: "That which experiences".

I know I am experiencing. It is the only thing I cannot doubt.

Therefore I must have a mind.

A mind cannot just exist. It must be created in some way by some thing.

That is the brain.

Ok, I agree with a lot of that, but how do you know you have a mind?

It is experienced. Otherwise it could not be known to exist.

So what is it that experiences mind?

In that I concluded, I MUST have a mind.

The issue is not debatable.
 
What do you think forced evolving brains to create the experiences they create?

How come vibrating air causes a human to make a "sound" but a bat to make a "sight"?

It's the same stimulus.

Really?

Light is vibrating air? An the same stimulus as sound? It’s good to know your physics is better than your philosophy.

In a bat vibrating air creates a visual experience. It is turned into a "sight".

To navigate as quickly as a bat navigates you have to "see". And it navigates in the absence of light.

The vibrating air is not a sight or a sound.

It is a stimulus that causes an evolved brain to make an arbitrary evolved product. The product is just something that arose randomly since an external stimulus cannot direct an evolving nervous system to do things.

It takes an understanding of evolution and how change can possibly occur.

All change takes place from within the organism. The external world just gives the grade. Pass or Fail.

Many of these crazy ideas arise because of poor understandings of how the things the brain does arose. They all arose randomly. Nothing was planned. The external world did not rearrange the genes to it's liking.

The EM radiation did not say: "Now this is the experience of "red". The experience of "red" is just something that became randomly associated to the stimulus. It was not created by the stimulus.

Nothing the brain does was created. It all arose randomly.
 
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In that I concluded, I MUST have a mind.

The issue is not debatable.

Sure.

You have a mind. It is experienced. Otherwise you could not know you even had one. I think we agree on that.

So what is it that experiences mind?

Who said there was something?

Mind is known by the fact that experience is happening.

For experience to be happening something must be experiencing things.
 
For experience to be happening something must be experiencing things.

Ok, sure, but what is experiencing mind? You are, right? You experience mind. Thoughts and stuff. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to tell if you even had a mind. You know you have thoughts, right?

The mind 'thing' experiences qualia, and you experience the mind 'thing'. What's wrong with that?
 
Smoke rising in the hills above untermenche's place. Is he trying to signal something? Might he need a blanket?

Go learn a little evolution then come back.

The external world does not tell the genes how to arrange and rearrange.

It cannot cause an evolving brain to make any specific thing.

"Red" is a random brain product that has become associated with a specific stimulus.

But that stimulus is only associated with the experience of "red". It had nothing to do with the creation of "red" in the first place.
 
For experience to be happening something must be experiencing things.

Ok, sure, but what is experiencing mind? You are, right? You experience mind. Thoughts and stuff. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to tell if you even had a mind. You know you have thoughts, right?

The mind 'thing' experiences qualia, and you experience the mind 'thing'. What's wrong with that?

There is no experience of mind.

There are experiences of things that are not mind.

A vision is not a mind. A sound is not a mind. Proprioception is not a mind. Emotions are not a mind. Memories and opinions are not a mind.

All experiences are something a mind has.

You have no experience of your mind.

A "self" in not a mind. A "self" is a collection of arbitrary but specific memories and associations and proclivities that has formed over a lifetime with some things dependent on genetic endowment and is somewhat stable as long as the nervous system remains intact.
 
"Red" is a random brain product that has become associated with a specific stimulus.

But that stimulus is only associated with the experience of "red". It had nothing to do with the creation of "red" in the first place.
Ok time for an interlude. A game. Ontology is tricky and we all need a break now and again.

So, can anyone spot Untermensche in this picture?

View attachment 15731
 
"Red" is a random brain product that has become associated with a specific stimulus.

But that stimulus is only associated with the experience of "red". It had nothing to do with the creation of "red" in the first place.
Ok time for an interlude. A game. Ontology is tricky and we all need a break now and again.

So, can anyone spot Untermensche in this picture?

View attachment 15731

I can't see the picture.

I also see no argument.

Are you saying you finally understand or do I have to repeat it some more.

"Red" is associated with a stimulus.

It was not created by the stimulus nor does it reflect anything about the stimulus.

It has by contingent chance become associated with a stimulus.
 
The experience of a thought is an experience a mind has.

So....thoughts. Are they different things from qualia, in your ontology, I wonder. And what creates them. I dread to ask.

- - - Updated - - -

I can't see the picture.

Somehow, that does not surprise me. :D

- - - Updated - - -

do I have to repeat it some more.

Yeah, go on. Why stop now? Who knows, if you keep saying it, maybe someday, somewhere, someone might agree with you. Never give up hope.
 
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