Christians, about your persecution complex

[Underseer]

Dear Christians,

First, not all Christians display this particular persecution complex, so I am not applying this to all Christians. But we've all heard variations on this one, haven't we?

1. Christians in country X are being persecuted.
2. I am Christian.
3. Therefore, I am being persecuted.

Please let me try and explain why this is dangerous and wrong by showing how some Muslims in Muslim-majority countries abuse the same argument in the same way.

1. Muslims in country X are being persecuted.
2. I am Muslim.
3. Therefore, I am being persecuted.
4. Therefore, I am justified in persecuting this or that minority group in my own country.

I have heard Pakistanis use this very argument to rationalize persecuting religious minorities in Pakistan. I don't doubt that Muslims in other Muslim-majority countries also use this rationalization, but I don't talk to that many Muslims. Certainly Muslim terrorists and those who rationalize Muslim terrorism use similar arguments.

If you are Christian, you are probably not aware that you are also using a similar rationalization. Maybe to justify your attempts to deport all Muslims. Maybe to justify persecuting homosexuals or transgendered people. The Christians who bomb gay night clubs or shoot doctors almost certainly use rationalizations like this.

Here's the thing: Christianity and Islam are both very populous religions. No matter what, at any given moment, there are going to be places in the world where Muslims are being persecuted and places in the world where Muslims are doing the persecuting. No matter what, there are going to be places in the world where Christians are being persecuted and places in the world where Christians are doing the persecuting. Obviously, we should work to reduce such incidents as much as possible, but I doubt we could completely eliminate any of it.

The fact that Muslims in country X are subjected to injustice does not justify Muslims in country Y committing injustices. The fact that Christians in country X are subjected to injustice does not justify Christians in country Y committing injustices. Someone else's wrong can't turn your wrong into a right. That's just not how morality works. There are times when we commit one wrong to prevent or reduce another wrong, but that's still not right; it is merely the least awful option.

If you want to rationalize an immoral action or decision you have made, you had better be able to show the immediate injustice you prevented or diminished by your action. If you are using the "but people in my religion are persecuted in that other country" argument, this is almost certainly not the case.

 

[repoman]

I will not make distinctions between different sects of Christianity or Islam here. That is for another place, but I think that there IS justification for some sects to call others heretical even if they are all still talking to imaginary friends. If not the label Christian or Muslim will mean nothing.

But even though Christian populations in Indonesia or Nigeria are being attacked should not at first glance concern one in the US, there are "rational" reasons to care. If all Christians didn't care about these or aid in these situations and Muslims did care, then after a period of time the numbers game would favor the Muslims and finally it could have an effect on Christian/Muslim dynamics in the US.

On the list of priorities this ranks well below overpopulation, resource stripping and climate change. In fact worry about another religion (or ethnic group) taking over may make people want to have too many kids.

 

[Underseer]

I will not make distinctions between different sects of Christianity or Islam here. That is for another place, but I think that there IS justification for some sects to call others heretical even if they are all still talking to imaginary friends. If not the label Christian or Muslim will mean nothing.

But even though Christian populations in Indonesia or Nigeria are being attacked should not at first glance concern one in the US, there are "rational" reasons to care. If all Christians didn't care about these or aid in these situations and Muslims did care, then after a period of time the numbers game would favor the Muslims and finally it could have an effect on Christian/Muslim dynamics in the US.

On the list of priorities this ranks well below overpopulation, resource stripping and climate change. In fact worry about another religion (or ethnic group) taking over may make people want to have too many kids.

My point is that the fact that Muslims are being persecuted in Palestine and Myanmar does not justify Muslims in Pakistan persecuting Hindus and other religious minorities in Pakistan.

 

[Lion IRC]

Jesus Christ says do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
How then would a Christian who dislikes being persecuted think it's ok to persecute others?

 

[repoman]

To Christians god is REAL (hard to believe, I know) so we first have to put ourselves into that silly mindset and then figure out what and why they do what they do.

 

[steve_bank]

In the 50s/60s I went to a Catholic grammar school. The church was a small cathedral in New England Gothic style. Above the alter was a ;arge cross with Jessus nailed and a crown of thorns, bright red bloos on the white Jesus.

Around the church were Staions Of The Cross. Periodicaally we were marched around the stations each picturing some physical abuse of Jesus.

The Catholic Church in particular is a cult of pain and suffering. In the Catholic tradition we are born victims, to be saved through baptism.

Evangelicans are hell bent on pulling us all into their misery and victimhood.

The Opus Dei, the Catholic wack jobs, wear pain spikes on the thighs. A recent pope was known to whip himself.

 

[Underseer]

To Christians god is REAL (hard to believe, I know) so we first have to put ourselves into that silly mindset and then figure out what and why they do what they do.

Yes, I get that.

It's also patently obvious why Christians and Muslims pull this particular "persecution" act.

And yes, I get that real persecution happens elsewhere in the world. Indeed, in the wake of the post-Trump violence, I would argue that America is now one of the places that can be said to be persecuting Muslims, but just because Muslims in America are experiencing violence at the hands of Christians, that does not justify Muslims in Pakistan doing awful things to the Hindu minority there.

Ditto for Christians in Christian-majority countries playing the same game.

 

[fast]

What's the quantifier in the first premise? "All" or "some"? That can change the validity of the argument.

 

[Underseer]

What's the quantifier in the first premise? "All" or "some"? That can change the validity of the argument.

Doesn't matter to the kind of people who make this argument.

If any Christians anywhere are being persecuted, then all Christians are being persecuted, therefore Christians are justified in persecuting anyone they please. Ditto with Muslims willing to use this same argument.

 

[steve_bank]

Certainly the irony of claiming 'they are out to get us' is starkly and blatantly obvious.

The iconic Pilgrims were not fleeing atheists, Muslims, or Hindus. They were fleeing other Christians.

In the 19th centuryy Catholics were viewed much as Muslims are viewed today.

The guarentee of relgious freedom and the prohibition of using office to promote religion in the times was intended to protect minority Christians from majority Christians.

In colonial times you could get into trouble preaching contrary to colony versions of the faith, and preaching wothout authorization.

What they percieve as persecution is the rest of us declaring our right to be free of intrusive religion of any kind. Your right to extend your elbow ends at my nose so to speak.

Watched a PBS show on an atheist family in the early 1900s. Atheists faced physical threats for publicy speaking against Christian oppression.

 

[Lion IRC]

Your average Christian today;
- is poor
- lives in a developing country
- speaks a non-European language
- lives under the very real (and disproportionately high) threat of rape, murder, political imprisonment.

 

[Jobar]

Jesus Christ says do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
How then would a Christian who dislikes being persecuted think it's ok to persecute others?

One way- declare that God hates the others. (Warning, that's the official site of Westboro Baptist, and a nasty place indeed.)

I'm sure you'll object that's diametrically opposed to the injunction to love thy neighbor as thyself, and I would very much agree. But this is a case of defining what a 'true Christian' is; Fred Phelps could quote plenty of Bible verses which backed up his own hateful theology.

 

[ideologyhunter]

God does hate "the others", at least in "his" book. The Book of Joshua is a blueprint for genocide, making Biblegod the ultimate racist.

 

[repoman]

This is made by a Christian about why this movie is about a persecution complex.

 

[steve_bank]

Your average Christian today;
- is poor
- lives in a developing country
- speaks a non-European language
- lives under the very real (and disproportionately high) threat of rape, murder, political imprisonment.

That is incorrect. Catholocism has always preyed on the disadvntaged, and is growing in 3rd wotld cultures. But look at South Korea, it shifted from Bhuddism to Christianity.


Catholics are around 25 percent of the USA and is growing witj Latino immigration.

 

[steve_bank]

As to the Golden Rule, it is a common Christian take to say Christians only need be Christian to other Christians.

From a passage in the bible Christians justfied slavery because those with black skin are being punished by god. Again the irony of the persecution complex.

 

[southernhybrid]

While it's true that some Christians have been persecuted in countries other than the US, so have members of other minority religions in those same countries. But, white American evangelicals believe they are being persecuted, and that has no basis in reality.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/democracy-post/wp/2017/12/12/no-christians-do-not-face-looming-persecution-in-america/?utm_term=.bf4f223fc11e

The word is “persecution.” According to a survey by the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI), a majority of white evangelicals believe that Christians face discrimination in the United States and are more likely to say that Christians, rather than Muslims, experience discrimination.

But evangelical Christians have long chafed at the strictures of that social contract. Now, with the election of Trump and the rise of Moore, they are in open rebellion against it. They want their beliefs to extend outside the walls of their churches and into bakeries, businesses, doctor’s offices, public bathrooms, Congress, the court system and the presidency — and they don’t want these actions to be subjected to legal and social scrutiny. They take such scrutiny, and any resulting opposition, as persecution. It’s a powerful rallying cry that has now swelled into a force capable of rewriting laws and oppressing the truly vulnerable.

When Christians make factually untrue claims that then go on to influence elections, law-making and eventually the lives of people outside the walls of the church, that social contract has been violated.

Please read the article for more details.

So, in other words, the high percentage of evangelical American Christians who think they are being persecuted is because they can no longer inject their personal beliefs and values onto the rest of us. The linked piece does a pretty decent job of explaining why so many white evangelicals supported Trump. They think he has their back and I tend to think that when he said MAGA, they took it too mean, make American White and evangelical again. The percentage of evangelicals in the country has been gradually waning. Some Christians apparently see that as persecution.

Let me share something that I saw prior to the presidential election. I live in an extremely conservative small city, with a fairly high percentage of evangelicals. I saw a white woman with a bumper sticker on her car that said, "I'm Christian and I Vote." Was she implying that most Christians don't vote? Was her sticker a subtle way of saying that she felt isolated or discriminated as a Christian? I have no idea, but I thought it was very weird considering the makeup of my city. I'll have to hand to our black Christian residents, who make up almost half of the local population. None of the black folks that I'm friendly with have ever told me that they feel persecuted for being Christians. They're not that stupid.

 

[Lion IRC]

...Christians only need be Christian to other Christians.

Yeah, that just how those homeless shelters and soup kitchens and HIV AIDS charities roll.
They screen out all non-Christians at the front door.

.....Christians justfied slavery because those with black skin are being punished by god.

Is this the point at which I chime in about Stalin and Mao and atheism?

 

[steve_bank]

...Christians only need be Christian to other Christians.

Yeah, that just how those homeless shelters and soup kitchens and HIV AIDS charities roll.
They screen out all non-Christians at the front door.

.....Christians justfied slavery because those with black skin are being punished by god.

Is this the point at which I chime in about Stalin and Mao and atheism?

I never said religion is patently evil.

I went to Catholic schools in the 50s-60s. My family situation was awful and the school environment looking back kept me from getting into serious trouble.

In my senior year a charitable group paid my last semester tuition. In the 80s I sent a 1000 dollar check o the school to help a kid out.

Many are inspired by religion to do good things. I read Mother Teresa's book. She had her detractors, I think she was a remarkable woman. Some Christians based on Leviticus treat gays horribly. Uganda is an extreme example.

Organized religion throughout history has been a prime source of conflict and destruction.

And finally, one of my major issues with religion is the notion the secular by definition are immoral. One does not need religion to be a good person.

And the OP on the ridiculous persecution complex.

When the Soviet Union collaped and the Russian Othrodox Church came back ut moved quickly to secure power and suppress competing sects.

Mormon missionaries were persona non grata as were Evangelical preachers. It took a while, eventually Biily Gram had one of his crusades in Russia.

The religious need to practice introspection.

Atheists and the secular in the USA have never been a threat to religion, it was the otter way around. The secular is now demanding its rights. The right to be free from religious coercion and dominance in any form. It is why the Constitution prohibits religious tests for public office and prevents Congress from passing laws enabling religion. It protects the secular and protects religion from itself. Colonial Christianity was not tolerant. Jefferson himself was a Deist not a Christian and had no regard for the Vatican

 

[Juma]

...Christians only need be Christian to other Christians.

Yeah, that just how those homeless shelters and soup kitchens and HIV AIDS charities roll.
They screen out all non-Christians at the front door.

.....Christians justfied slavery because those with black skin are being punished by god.

Is this the point at which I chime in about Stalin and Mao and atheism?

You mean that atheists are stalinists or maoists?