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Defending HItler

I have been consulting with a construction company to make blueprints based in the "evidence" provided by you, and they told me that those rooms weren't suitable at all for being used as gas chambers.


Great. What's the name and contact information of that company, and would a representative be willing to come here and explain those blueprints in detail? And if they've made those blueprints, can you provide them here?

Back up your claim. I'll wait.

Oh come on. Bring you "witness" here the one who says he saw Germans using gas in rooms making holes in the ceiling of the building.

I'm just not going to engage you in this. But I'd really like to know why you are so obsessed with defending Hitler? What is your motivation? I'm curious. Religious people attack science because it conflicts with their religious books despite incredible evidence. What do you get out of by defending Hitler?
 
Jason said:
I have no idea who you think you are referring to when you mention those who you imagine are my political allies.

[edit]

You know exactly who I imagine your political allies are, because I've told you, repeatedly. You can disagree that they are your allies, but you are well aware of who I think they are, because I've said.

You are a libertarian. I have said, and the two of us have argued at length, that the libertarian movement has been a refuge for white supremacists, and that american white supremacists are essentially nazis. You can disagree with one or both points. You can deny that any such person is your 'ally.' But you know damn well who I am talking about, you only pretend that you don't, because that seems to be the policy of mainstream libertarians towards the seedy underbelly of their movement. The fact that you continually show up to defend rightist racist ideologies, and never hard left opinions, does little to convince me that what I believe isn't so.
 
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How does denying the Holocaust with idiotic analogies help to determine the whether the Holocaust actually occurred?

I don't know. It is his argument, not mine.

And yet you've spent a good portion of this thread basically saying "now hold on here...he might have a point."

No, I didn't. I have not been defending his argument. I have been defending him making the argument. Those are two different things. If he is doing devils advocate I think he chose a weak argument to use, but that doesn't change the essential nature of what is actually going on here. I'm not saying he's right or his argument is right, I'm saying that in a thread specifically about what one might say to defend Hitler, he appears to be making the attempt.

If you could do a better job, I'd like to see it.
 
Jason said:
I have no idea who you think you are referring to when you mention those who you imagine are my political allies.

Deliberate obtuseness again, this time crossing the line to a lie.

You know exactly who I imagine your political allies are, because I've told you, repeatedly. You can disagree that they are your allies, but you are well aware of who I think they are, because I've said.

I have no idea who they are.

You are a libertarian. I have said, and the two of us have argued at length, that the libertarian movement has been a refuge for white supremacists, and that american white supremacists are essentially nazis. You can disagree with one or both points. You can deny that any such person is your 'ally.' But you know damn well who I am talking about, you only pretend that you don't, because that seems to be the policy of mainstream libertarians towards the seedy underbelly of their movement. The fact that you continually show up to defend rightist racist ideologies, and never hard left opinions, does little to convince me that what I believe isn't so.

I'm not defending any racist ideology. You need to fabricate fantasies in order to make that conclusion. As I've pointed out, I'm not defending the argument that humbleman is making, I'm defending him making the argument. Two entirely different things.

I hereby declare that since you are engaging in fantasy, I will apply the same standard to you as you do to me. I say the progressive movement has been a refuge for white supremacists and that makes them your allies. From this point forward whenever the subject comes up, I'll indulge the same fantasy against you that you are indulging against me and declare you to be an ally of Nazis. Because you are.
 
No one denies there are racists in all parties. But I don't hear progressives booing people who say they support the Civil Rights act. Among American political parties, the Civil Rights act is controversial in only one, yours. That is not my fantasy, that is a fact. You can lie until your fingers bleed and you turn blue in the face, but you can't change that.
 
No one denies there are racists in all parties. But I don't hear progressives booing people who say they support the Civil Rights act. Among American political parties, the Civil Rights act is controversial in only one, yours. That is not my fantasy, that is a fact. You can lie until your fingers bleed and you turn blue in the face, but you can't change that.

And you can lie about white supremacists hiding in the Libertarian Party if you want as well, but that doesn't change that you are a defender of Nazis.
 
I can laugh at your lies, because they are lies.

My truths sting you because you know they are true.
 
No one denies there are racists in all parties. But I don't hear progressives booing people who say they support the Civil Rights act. Among American political parties, the Civil Rights act is controversial in only one, yours. That is not my fantasy, that is a fact. You can lie until your fingers bleed and you turn blue in the face, but you can't change that.

And you can lie about white supremacists hiding in the Libertarian Party if you want as well, but that doesn't change that you are a defender of Nazis.
Sarpedon is not lying about anything. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/08/24/libertarians-wrestle-with-the-alt-right/?utm_term=.a09dd7304814 and http://www.wmnf.org/libertarian-party-of-florida-denies-harboring-white-supremacists/ document that there people making those claims based on their observations and on their experiences. It is true that the Libertarian party's formal and public stance is that there is no place for white supremacists or Nazis in the Libertarian party.

But your claim is just another example of the denial of reality.
 
A lot of left ideologies are about removing hierarchies at all levels, institutional, cultural, societal. Big L Libertarianism, on the other hand, is an obtuse ideology that only supports equality at the government level and pretending that passive harm is an intractable problem, thus only dealing with active harm. This allows an indirect support of all unfair, undue hierarchies that are not ordered by government. so, for example, an indirect support of unfair economics. Libertarians would go so far as to support indentured servitude if there were a contract they could refer to. Libertarianism would not support an armed revolution against unfair economics, such as hoarding of wealth by a few elites and indentured servitude by the rabble thru contracts. thats why they do nit support a minimum wage or the civil rights act. this is also why so many right wing racists want to join--to keep the status quo power structure that is institutional and societal, not governmental.

Lets not pretend Hitler was a Libertarian, though. He was authoritarian. Libertarians would not support genocide, just the unfair aftermath of unequal economics as a result generations later and ghettos.
 
I have never intended to imply that, nor do I mean to imply that white supremacists are truly libertarians, only that they make use of the philosophy when it suits them, hiding in the structure along with the other kooks. I'm sorry if I have been unclear about this.
 
I have never intended to imply that, nor do I mean to imply that white supremacists are truly libertarians, only that they make use of the philosophy when it suits them, hiding in the structure along with the other kooks. I'm sorry if I have been unclear about this.

Of course you deny implying it, because you state it directly instead. You are trying to lay at the feet of libertarians the racists and supremaicsts within your progressive ranks.
 
I have hinted that you have a greater sympathy for the movement than may be typical, due to your continual repetition and defense of their talking points. I have also stated that philosophically, libertarian 'thought' is the direct descendant of the 'philosophy' that the Secessionists of the Confederacy subscribed to. But in general, given that the nominee, while booed, did support the Civil Rights act shows that the majority of the party are NOT white supremacists. You see, I take into account things like evidence when forming opinions, instead of just making up slander when someone says something mean. I have always been consistent on this point. The Libertarian party has been infiltrated by white supremacists, but not every libertarian is a white supremacist.

I love how you made up that progressives are now nazis in the course of this thread, just because I said something you didn't like, and are now repeating it in the hopes that people will eventually accept it. Just like a lil' Trump. Ain't you sweet.
 
I have never intended to imply that, nor do I mean to imply that white supremacists are truly libertarians, only that they make use of the philosophy when it suits them, hiding in the structure along with the other kooks. I'm sorry if I have been unclear about this.

Of course you deny implying it, because you state it directly instead.
Please produce the quote where you feel Sarpedon directly states that white supremacists are libertarians.
You are trying to lay at the feet of libertarians the racists and supremaicsts within your progressive ranks.
How do you get from “No one denies there are racists in all parties.” (post 205 in this thread). And why do you feel the need to deny the reality that there have been white surpemacists hiding in the Libertarian party?
 
To be fair to Jason, I have made stronger statements in other threads.

While I have never actually equated them, I do feel it is demonstrable that the modern Libertarian movement IS a direct philosophical descendant of the philosophies that were invented by the pro-Slavery extremists prior to the Civil War, and therefore, Libertarian philosophy and White Supremacy can be said to be, philosophically, cousins. Furthermore, it is also undeniable that American White Supremacist practice and philosophy heavily influenced Nazism.

My feeling is that the average Libertarian probably comes to the party from the anti-government direction, rather than the White Supremacist, probably not understanding the common origin of them both.

The common origin is of course the extreme 'nullification' philosophy that came out of South Carolina, and the South generally, prior to the Civil War. It held that property is the most important basic right, and government can NEVER interfere in a citizens (read, white man's) property (read, slaves). Go through this ideology, remove references to race and slavery, and you will essentially have the Libertarian creed. Go through it and instead remove the legal arguments, and you will have a White Supremacist pamphlet. This is my view on the matter.

The practical effect of this kindred spirit means that white supremacist will feel at home among libertarian groups, and won't be easily detected and rejected by them. Also, one can't help but think with the recent resurgence of white supremacy in this country, that there had to be plenty of people who just a few years ago would have seemed perfectly innocuous to everyone, including myself, but who were in fact hidden white supremacists. (though in hindsight, many signs were there, only I didn't care to see them) I propose that many of them were concealed among the libertarians, though of course the libertarian movement is simply not large enough to have concealed them ALL. Obviously, many were hiding among other groups.
 
Bring you "witness" here the one who says he saw Germans using gas in rooms making holes in the ceiling of the building.
We did. You called them liars. Unfortunately, the only reason you could provide, had you thought to provide one at the time, would have been that they must be liars because the gas chambers did not exist.

So the situation was that you said there were no gas chambers because the structures at the KZs could not have served as gas chambers. Witnesses who have worked with the gas chambers are handwaved aside because you say the structures at the KZs could not have served as gas chambers. Nice piece of circularity.
 
I have hinted that you have a greater sympathy for the movement than may be typical, due to your continual repetition and defense of their talking points.

I have never defended the content of their speech. If you look at my posting history you will discover this. I defend their right to speak, and have done so consistently. It is sad that you can't tell the difference. I do not know if you can't tell the difference because you are unable to or unwilling to.
 
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