Consciousness

[DBT]

The ''hard problem'' being how a brain forms conscious experience.....

It is a hard problem.

It is total mystery.

Nobody has the slightest clue how it could happen.

We can't even begin to explain it.

The connection between brain activity and conscious experience is a complete blank.

To claim you know how the consciousness could work on the brain is ridiculous.

You say that, you say it repeatedly...yet you yourself claim knowledge - you claim to know that the brain is stupid and that consciousness has a life and autonomy of its it own and is therefore smart. That 'mind' is an independent agent working within a dumb brain. That is what you have said and claimed.

 

[untermensche]

It is a hard problem.

It is total mystery.

Nobody has the slightest clue how it could happen.

We can't even begin to explain it.

The connection between brain activity and conscious experience is a complete blank.

To claim you know how the consciousness could work on the brain is ridiculous.

You say that, you say it repeatedly...yet you yourself claim knowledge - you claim to know that the brain is stupid and that consciousness has a life and autonomy of its it own and is therefore smart. That 'mind' is an independent agent working within a dumb brain. That is what you have said and claimed.

The brain is dumb.

The consciousness is smart.

And I am not the only thing telling you about autonomy. Every decision you make tells you.

You simply do not listen for some strange reason.

 

[fromderinside]

If one considers evolution as a winnowing process for producing more and more faithful representations of the world about the living organism then all present life is smarter than previous life. It's there in the competition for resources requirement for fitness. A human brain is much smarter than an ape brain because the human brain is required to do more thinking, thinking about past and present, thinking about weapons, thinking about language, about all those myriad other capacities considered as being smart.

It's not the output devices, those capacities that produce experience that are smart. Rather it is is in those devices that permit one to get on a target, to distinguish threat from non thread, that permit translation of image data to language data, that are smart. These are the exquisite capacities that permit one to experience which is, after all, just a movie being played based on the work these, as you call them, dumb brain activities. Outputs are consequences of sensing, perceiving, thinking, memory formation, production, and recall, and just the sounds, feelings, movements, generated by that highly evolved smart brain in that wonderfully adept human being.

Consciousness is an evolved social capacity primarily evolved to sustain fitness within species. It's not the executive. It is product running the results of the true executive integrated thinking processes.

 

[DBT]

You say that, you say it repeatedly...yet you yourself claim knowledge - you claim to know that the brain is stupid and that consciousness has a life and autonomy of its it own and is therefore smart. That 'mind' is an independent agent working within a dumb brain. That is what you have said and claimed.

The brain is dumb.

The consciousness is smart.

And I am not the only thing telling you about autonomy. Every decision you make tells you.

You simply do not listen for some strange reason.

Absurd. What you are telling me is that you have, to put it kindly, virtually no understanding of what is actually understood about cognition through experimentation, case studies of dysfunction (which tells us about brain function), evidence and reason. So regardless of the body of information we have, you maintain a belief that is contrary to everything that has been acquired through observation and testing.

A parietal-premotor network for movement intention and motor awareness
''It is commonly assumed that we are conscious of our movements mainly because we can sense ourselves moving as ongoing peripheral information coming from our muscles and retina reaches the brain. Recent evidence, however, suggests that, contrary to common beliefs, conscious intention to move is independent of movement execution per se. We propose that during movement execution it is our initial intentions that we are mainly aware of. Furthermore, the experience of moving as a conscious act is associated with increased activity in a specific brain region: the posterior parietal cortex. We speculate that movement intention and awareness are generated and monitored in this region. We put forward a general framework of the cognitive and neural processes involved in movement intention and motor awareness.''


''The amygdala interacts with the cortical sensory systems in the assessment of fear-related stimuli and modulates the reflex responses through projections to the hypothalamus and brainstem. The ventromedial prefrontal cortex, especially the medial prefrontal network, is connected to the amygdala, hypothalamus, and PAG, and allows cortical control over the system in relation to a wider set of emotions. This cortical region is involved both in the assessment of reward and in mood disorders and it plays a central role in the ability to discern the consequences of one's actions and make appropriate behavioral choices. It also forms an interconnected circuit with specific cortical areas in the rostral superior temporal cortex, posterior parahippocampal cortex, and retrosplenial/posterior cingulate cortex.''
J. Comp. Neurol. 493:132-139, 2005. © 2005 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

 

[untermensche]

Not more brain stimulation dog shit!!!

Yes you can get all kinds of strange sensations and experiences when you introduce electricity into an exposed brain. Something that never happens in normal function.

They mean absolutely NOTHING!!!!

And it explains absolutely NOTHING!!!!

 

[fromderinside]

Amazing. All that claimed useless information gleaned by electro and fMRI, and chemical scientists doing their 'ueless' brain experiments and we still treat brain trauma, brain dysfunction, behavioral maladaptation and dysfunction better every day. I guess knowledge increases about nervous system function and action without useful results then. Quite a thing that pseudo-scientific thinking you do.

 

[untermensche]

Amazing. All that claimed useless information gleaned by electro and fMRI, and chemical scientists doing their 'ueless' brain experiments and we still treat brain trauma, brain dysfunction, behavioral maladaptation and dysfunction better every day. I guess knowledge increases about nervous system function and action without useful results then. Quite a thing that pseudo-scientific thinking you do.

We treat brain trauma with drugs like steroids and sometimes with cryotherapy. Experiments where the BP is highly elevated after stroke have been done and I have seen patients that had good recovery after such treatment.

We have a greater understanding of how to treat brain trauma.

But not a greater understanding of brain function.

As far as behavior problems we use drugs, and we have little idea beyond what receptor they bind to as far as why they work.

A lot of it is just sedating people to the point they can't act out.

No greater understanding of brain function. I have no idea what medical interventions you are talking about.

 

[fromderinside]

Are you replying to my statements? I didn't think so.

I'll do you the favor of responding as you did to my post.

1. Not relevant
2. Agreed
3. Wrong see reference
4. Wrong see reference
5. Wrong see reference
6. Wrong see reference - what medical interventions am I talking about?

For a little refresher try Understanding the brain https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/understanding-the-brain.html introduction and chapter summaries. They'll give you a fairly good feel for where we are versus your "know nothing" position.

 

[DBT]

Not more brain stimulation dog shit!!!

Yes you can get all kinds of strange sensations and experiences when you introduce electricity into an exposed brain. Something that never happens in normal function.

They mean absolutely NOTHING!!!!

And it explains absolutely NOTHING!!!!

That's just sad.

 

[untermensche]

Not more brain stimulation dog shit!!!

Yes you can get all kinds of strange sensations and experiences when you introduce electricity into an exposed brain. Something that never happens in normal function.

They mean absolutely NOTHING!!!!

And it explains absolutely NOTHING!!!!

That's just sad.

What's sad is the idea that eliciting a sensation artificially by applying electricity to an exposed brain is some kind of evidence of normal function.

 

[untermensche]

Are you replying to my statements? I didn't think so.

I'll do you the favor of responding as you did to my post.

1. Not relevant
2. Agreed
3. Wrong see reference
4. Wrong see reference
5. Wrong see reference
6. Wrong see reference - what medical interventions am I talking about?

For a little refresher try Understanding the brain https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/understanding-the-brain.html introduction and chapter summaries. They'll give you a fairly good feel for where we are versus your "know nothing" position.

You don't have any medical training.

You have never worked with one patient.

Don't tell me some bullshit that there have been advancements in the treatment of brain trauma because we understand brain function better.

You don't have a clue.

 

[DBT]

That's just sad.

What's sad is the idea that eliciting a sensation artificially by applying electricity to an exposed brain is some kind of evidence of normal function.

What's sad is you have no comprehension of the nature of the research, which is far broader than just electrical brain stimulation. What is sad is you ignoring all research, all evidence, all analysis, all that has been gained in regard to understanding the brain, and just repeating that nobody knows anything....except you. You claim to know the brain is dumb but consciousness is smart because it has autonomy from the brain.

 

[untermensche]

You have not demonstrated any understanding of brain activity.

You post studies that stimulate the brain and then have some reports of sensation.

You don't seem to comprehend that these reports are meaningless. Every one of them.

They are a strange phenomena that occurs under very unnatural conditions. Not any explanation of normal function.

 

[fromderinside]

I do have a little medical training and I taught premed students. Worked at Santa Ana State Hospital in LA area for a year as as scientist responsible for putting together treatment protocols for patient drug therapy. Taught premed students at FSU and UCLA.
That's one.

I didn't, I provided an article that did.

Enough on credentials.

Did you even try to read the small print introduction or any of the chapter summaries in the citation? I thought not. Got to keep that pristine vessel full of BS in tact, right bucko.

The article again. Understanding the brain https://www.thegreatcourses.com/cour...the-brain.html

 

[untermensche]

That's not medical training or working with patients.

What advancement in therapy that has arisen because of our increased knowledge of brain function are you talking about?

 

[fromderinside]

I don't see the relationship to your question and the thread topic so I'm not taking the bait for further derail.

Why are you trying to establish yourself as an expert on anything if all you have done is pander to patients?

 

[untermensche]

I know that when a person has a stroke you need to engage their will to get them better.

You need to reattach their will to their body.

This idea that the body moves without the will directing it defies any observation.

 

[DBT]

You have not demonstrated any understanding of brain activity.

According to you. Which doesn't mean much. According to you nobody has any understanding of the brain and its function, not neurologists, not researchers, nobody.....,only you. You know the brain is dumb while consciousness, being an independent agent, is smart. That'd credibility for you.

You post studies that stimulate the brain and then have some reports of sensation.
.

Also not true. You conveniently overlook case studies of injury and pathologies like underdeveloped neural structures which alter personality, behaviour and how the subject sees themselves and the world, sociopathy, etc...all of which adds to the body of information relating to brain function. But of course, none of that suits your beliefs. You know better than the researchers.

 

[DBT]

This idea that the body moves without the will directing it defies any observation.

Hilarious....never heard of involuntary movement? Motor neuron conditions? No? Obviously not, otherwise you wouldn't make these remarks.

 

[untermensche]

This idea that the body moves without the will directing it defies any observation.

Hilarious....never heard of involuntary movement? Motor neuron conditions? No? Obviously not, otherwise you wouldn't make these remarks.

Motor neuron conditions?

Like Stephen Hawking?

Not a lot of movement there.

I am talking about productive movement not reflexive movement. A distinction only somebody who never had to do anything productive could miss.