My Answer to - No Atheists in Fox Holes

[Ramaraksha]

Funny, you'd think only atheists would be in the foxhole because theists could just use the power of prayer for protection from bullets and shells.

That is the message of my cartoon - all that talk about how wonderful Heaven will be but yet hanging on to dear life when their time approaches. Not one wants to go happily - they have to pushed into "heaven" kicking and screaming - strange, that.

 

[snoiduspoitus]

A deeply religious friend died two years ago, praising his lord and savior Jesus while trying every available drug to keep him alive.

The funeral pretended to be a 'joy of life' kind of thing, but of course it was a grieving moment for all concerned, and was hard on me as well.

I don't know what the believers in attendance felt, but on their behalf I felt cheated.

 

[blastula]

Interesting history of Hume's dying days. He died as he lived: David Hume, philosopher and infidel | Aeon Ideas

Theists at the time were quite angry that he was in good humor in his last days, that he was "a model of wisdom and virtue."

 

[WAB]

We already went over this. They try to sincerely respect the time that their chosen god decides to take them, since death is supposed to come unexpectedly, like a thief in the night.

They mock Atheists - No Atheists in fox holes - is that true? But if they have a right in mocking Atheists, why can't we have some fun?

All i see are people scared of death - Theists, Atheists - we all fear death & religions exploit that fear by promising magic lands where the living is easy but first one has to join their religion and pray to their God. Simple exploitation that has worked wonderfully and continues to do so. And that was the first image, which is in total contrast to the 2nd

I don't fear death in the least. Honest. I'm 53, have no prospects for retirement except waiting it out, and will probably have to work until I'm old. I'm divorced, haven't been with a woman in 12 years, am in a terrible living arrangement, and every day is a struggle. I say, come and get me, sweet Death! Show up at my door and I'll go gladly!

What is so frightening about death? In oblivion, there is no time. Time is only relevant to living beings. Thus, ten trillion years dead is equal to half a second dead. When I had my teeth pulled, they gave me a shot and told me to count backwards from 100. By 98 I was in heaven, by 97 I was out. A snap of the finger later, I was being revived. There was NOTHING in between. Nada.

Death will be exactly like that NOTHING in between being conscious and being awakened, except I will not awaken. BUT - I will not know it, so I will have nothing to worry about.

People who fear death are lucky. It means they are really happy and that they have something to look forward to that keeps them loving life. I don't have that. I have my interests and my hobbies, but when I'm dead, I won't miss not being able to do them, will I? All I have to look forward to at this point in my life is working. Big freakin' deal.

Death be not proud, though some have called thee... - John Donne.

O Grave! where is thy victory?
O Death! where is thy sting?

- Alexander Pope

***Edited in: Which, by the way, is a lot of the reason millions of people cling to religion. For many, oblivion after a life of toil is not much of a reward. They want a reward. The hope of heaven and communing with a divine being makes them happy, gives them solace, gives them comfort. It's really easy to be a militant atheist when you don't have to slave your life away for practically nothing.

I see atheists talking a big storm about empathy, but where is your empathy for the salt of the earth? The unsung millions who work for a pittance, for whom every day is a struggle? For some of these people, they don't even know if they will have enough to eat, or clean water, or even a roof over their heads. For a great many of these people, who are in the millions, their faith is the only thing that keeps them going, that gives them a reason for existing.

Try and have a little sympathy for those people. They are all over the earth.

 

[WAB]

They mock Atheists - No Atheists in fox holes - is that true? But if they have a right in mocking Atheists, why can't we have some fun?

All i see are people scared of death - Theists, Atheists - we all fear death & religions exploit that fear by promising magic lands where the living is easy but first one has to join their religion and pray to their God. Simple exploitation that has worked wonderfully and continues to do so. And that was the first image, which is in total contrast to the 2nd

I don't fear death in the least. Honest. I'm 53, have no prospects for retirement except waiting it out, and will probably have to work until I'm old. I'm divorced, haven't been with a woman in 12 years, am in a terrible living arrangement, and every day is a struggle. I say, come and get me, sweet Death! Show up at my door and I'll go gladly!

What is so frightening about death? In oblivion, there is no time. Time is only relevant to living beings. Thus, ten trillion years dead is equal to half a second dead. When I had my teeth pulled, they gave me a shot and told me to count backwards from 100. By 98 I was in heaven, by 97 I was out. A snap of the finger later, I was being revived. There was NOTHING in between. Nada.

Death will be exactly like that NOTHING in between being conscious and being awakened, except I will not awaken. BUT - I will not know it, so I will have nothing to worry about.

People who fear death are lucky. It means they are really happy and that they have something to look forward to that keeps them loving life. I don't have that. I have my interests and my hobbies, but when I'm dead, I won't miss not being able to do them, will I? All I have to look forward to at this point in my life is working. Big freakin' deal.

Death be not proud, though some have called thee... - John Donne.

O Grave! where is thy victory?
O Death! where is thy sting?

- Alexander Pope

***Edited in: Which, by the way, is a lot of the reason millions of people cling to religion. For many, oblivion after a life of toil is not much of a reward. They want a reward. The hope of heaven and communing with a divine being makes them happy, gives them solace, gives them comfort. It's really easy to be a militant atheist when you don't have to slave your life away for practically nothing.

I see atheists talking a big storm about empathy, but where is your empathy for the salt of the earth? The unsung millions who work for a pittance, for whom every day is a struggle? For some of these people, they don't even know if they will have enough to eat, or clean water, or even a roof over their heads. For a great many of these people, who are in the millions, their faith is the only thing that keeps them going, that gives them a reason for existing.

Try and have a little sympathy for those people. They are all over the earth.

Two hours and no answers.

A bunch of comfortable people with a lot of time on their hands to judge the salt of the earth. A lot of mouthy atheists sitting back with their PCs and their phones, all the luxuries, judging the salt of the earth, as if they are nothing but a bunch of sheep, and mindless "idiots".

How sad. How very sad.

And how many of you consider yourselves humanists? And how many of you so-called "humanists" have animals as avatars, and have no problem valuing animals over human lives?

I know at least ONE of you who is a confessed misanthrope, who has a dog as an avatar. I bet this user thinks of themselves as a 'humanist'.

Humanist, my ass.

 

[Ramaraksha]

***Edited in: Which, by the way, is a lot of the reason millions of people cling to religion. For many, oblivion after a life of toil is not much of a reward. They want a reward. The hope of heaven and communing with a divine being makes them happy, gives them solace, gives them comfort. It's really easy to be a militant atheist when you don't have to slave your life away for practically nothing.
I see atheists talking a big storm about empathy, but where is your empathy for the salt of the earth? The unsung millions who work for a pittance, for whom every day is a struggle? For some of these people, they don't even know if they will have enough to eat, or clean water, or even a roof over their heads. For a great many of these people, who are in the millions, their faith is the only thing that keeps them going, that gives them a reason for existing.
Try and have a little sympathy for those people. They are all over the earth.

Do your comments apply to those who mock Atheists - No Atheists in Fox Holes - as well?

Did you miss the cartoon? Why is it that those who you say are happy that they have something to look forward to fight to the death clinging to life? Whatever happened to all the joy and happiness waiting for them? Why do they head to the hospital when ill instead of waiting at home for death?

Clearly it shows that for all the big talk theists really don't believe in Heaven? They are as scared of death as anyone else

And what's with this - "you are going to hell because you don't pray to Jesus. Only Jesus can get you to heaven" - do you see any empathy here? Billions condemned to a brutal hell simply because they are using the "wrong" name for God or don't have any beliefs?

Where is your empathy?

As for the 2 hours - you seem to have a lot of time on your hands - not everyone is glued to this site

 

[Learner]

Do your comments apply to those who mock Atheists - No Atheists in Fox Holes - as well?

Did you miss the cartoon? Why is it that those who you say are happy that they have something to look forward to fight to the death clinging to life? Whatever happened to all the joy and happiness waiting for them? Why do they head to the hospital when ill instead of waiting at home for death?

There must be variable reasons to your narrow suggestion for a various number of people. Is this your summing of the total for people fighting for life?

I (no doubt others here too) have been at the bedside to close relatives who have not long to go. All of them that I've been with have accepted that death will be upon them shortly. No fear .. some with tears with thoughts that they would be leaving their loved ones behind in a harsh world.

I would myself stay alive as long as possible to make sure /to guide my youngens with my experiences against the bad things I've come across (I doubt they would remember from a previous life to guide them, so to speak). Including not being an idiot like I used to be (once or twice just escaping perilous situations).

Another example; an elderly woman I saw on a doc with hidden camera filming this person having NO family was a typical in cases like this across the world- who was simply tired of life through loneliness , mistreatment - the pains of just existing and so on. There are, not forgetting; even some people who have lived long lives having done everything they wanted who is content to be ready when the time comes.

Anyway this particular person I could not forget who had a fairly sound mind with clear understanding of her situation was shouting to nurses "kill me kill me" - it wasn't mentioned if she was a theist or not but it knocked me for seven with sadness and the anger I felt of mistreatment.

So ...what does this poor woman who wished to die come back as in reincarnation? A fox for tally-ho hunting games?

 

[sharon45]

They mock Atheists - No Atheists in fox holes - is that true? But if they have a right in mocking Atheists, why can't we have some fun?

All i see are people scared of death - Theists, Atheists - we all fear death & religions exploit that fear by promising magic lands where the living is easy but first one has to join their religion and pray to their God. Simple exploitation that has worked wonderfully and continues to do so. And that was the first image, which is in total contrast to the 2nd

I don't fear death in the least. Honest.

It's the unknown, where it can be feared, but there is also a curiosity.

I'm 53, have no prospects for retirement except waiting it out, and will probably have to work until I'm old. I'm divorced, haven't been with a woman in 12 years, am in a terrible living arrangement, and every day is a struggle. I say, come and get me, sweet Death! Show up at my door and I'll go gladly!

What we do doesn't really matter as much for our personal selves as close to what it can mean to possibly many others. My father and mother started a little branch with four kids, all of whom will not continue this growth, so the branch eventually dies, but it could have become numerous other branches. About the same when we talk and work with people, if we keep ourselves largely private, we don't influence others a lot.

People who fear death are lucky. It means they are really happy and that they have something to look forward to that keeps them loving life. I don't have that.

Yet you could have it, if you honestly wanted it, especially without such extremes. I certainly don't love life, but I would have easily no problem living for thousands of years if my health was passable enough.

I have my interests and my hobbies, but when I'm dead, I won't miss not being able to do them, will I? All I have to look forward to at this point in my life is working. Big freakin' deal.

A lot of people can really like or even love their work, and some never want to retire, because their life was actually their work in so many ways.

***Edited in: Which, by the way, is a lot of the reason millions of people cling to religion. For many, oblivion after a life of toil is not much of a reward. They want a reward. The hope of heaven and communing with a divine being makes them happy, gives them solace, gives them comfort.

It's a dream though. They have absolutely no evidence of any such thing.

It's really easy to be a militant atheist when you don't have to slave your life away for practically nothing.

You can't honestly say that when first of all, you aren't one, and second, you can't know personally what everyone else thinks and feels. A lot of reasons why there are militant atheists is because there are militant Christians that must barge into other people's lives talking about their unverifiable beliefs.

I see atheists talking a big storm about empathy, but where is your empathy for the salt of the earth?

I do have empathy for them, and that is why I believe in proper education, and don't believe in charity.

For a great many of these people, who are in the millions, their faith is the only thing that keeps them going, that gives them a reason for existing.

I also think that most of these troubles stem from the blight of religion like a drug addiction. So, the more they cling, the worse it gets, and they continue to drag others down with them.

 

[sharon45]

So ...what does this poor woman who wished to die come back as in reincarnation? A fox for tally-ho hunting games?

Ask the sick god about its amusement.

 

[southernhybrid]

I have been a nurse for 42 years and most of those years were spent caring for older adults. I still work part time, although I'm backing off to one day a week, possibly just 3 days a month. I live in the Bible Belt so most of my patients have been Christians. Most didn't want to die, but eventually life becomes so painful, so difficult and/or so worthless, that death becomes a welcoming blessing. I've had two patients die in the past month.

The first one was a 73 year old man with heart and lung disease. He was a nominal Christian at best. He was poor and sick for the past several years, but he still wanted to live. That all changed when he started having severe bouts of shortness of breath, extreme weakness and also had to use both O2 and a mask that was similar to what people suffering from sleep apnea use. In other words, his life was no longer worth living.

My other patient was an 89 year old woman. She was somewhat religious but not obnoxious about it. She loved life, even when she wasn't feeling well. She had two crazy but very loving daughters. They didn't want her to die. They visited her often and showed her a lot of love. She became infected with Shingles and things went down hill from there. After a month in a rehab unit, she returned to the Assisted Living Facility where I work. She was put on hospice and died two days later. She was ready to go. The strangest thing one of her daughters said to me was, "Mom is now in heaven about to celebrate her 90th birthday surrounded by her former husbands and friends." I just smiled. I suppose her fantasy made her feel better. I don't need that fantasy.

I've cared mostly for poor people over my many years as a home health nurse. I've been in homes with no running water, no heat in the winter and sometimes very little food in the closets. I frequently had to call in a social worker to help out these folks, or to report abuse by family members. Despite all of this, many of my poorest clients were living happy lives. This was very common if the individual had a supportive family or friends. We are social animals. Most of us need others to have satisfactory lives. Religion is often just a way to build community. I find that to be especially true in the southern US, where people often talk more about the charity and friendships they receive from their churches than their wacky beliefs.

I'm often an outspoken atheist but I'm not a militant atheist. Some people really seem to need religion for social reasons or other reasons. I can be tolerant of them if they return the favor. Most of them do. Those that don't have the burden of being judgmental.

 

[Ramaraksha]

I would myself stay alive as long as possible to make sure /to guide my youngens with my experiences against the bad things I've come across (I doubt they would remember from a previous life to guide them, so to speak). Including not being an idiot like I used to be (once or twice just escaping perilous situations).

Another example; an elderly woman I saw on a doc with hidden camera filming this person having NO family was a typical in cases like this across the world- who was simply tired of life through loneliness , mistreatment - the pains of just existing and so on. There are, not forgetting; even some people who have lived long lives having done everything they wanted who is content to be ready when the time comes.

So ...what does this poor woman who wished to die come back as in reincarnation? A fox for tally-ho hunting games?

It's not like one size fits all - i am not there are zero people who view death calmly of course there are but the vast majority of people fight death tooth and nail, do they not? That is what the cartoon is asking

As for Reincarnation - we believe that THIS IS ALL there is - God made this world for us - this universe for us & that's it. Because life is so harsh, people hoped for a nicer aftelife and religions stepped in to tell them what they wanted to hear. Heaven is a religious construct, it is not made by God

So, the person who dreams of a heaven - an easy breezy life of doing nothing - will come back as a pet - a dog or cat maybe or even a lower form of life - they get their wish, they get their heaven. That is the misunderstanding of Reincarnation

 

[Ramaraksha]

I have been a nurse for 42 years and most of those years were spent caring for older adults. I still work part time, although I'm backing off to one day a week, possibly just 3 days a month. I live in the Bible Belt so most of my patients have been Christians. Most didn't want to die, but eventually life becomes so painful, so difficult and/or so worthless, that death becomes a welcoming blessing. I've had two patients die in the past month.
I'm often an outspoken atheist but I'm not a militant atheist. Some people really seem to need religion for social reasons or other reasons. I can be tolerant of them if they return the favor. Most of them do. Those that don't have the burden of being judgmental.

These are legitimate questions - were theists being judgmental when they say "no Atheists in fox holes?" - asking questions even uncomfortable ones is how we progress but religion has always shut down such uncomfortable questions haven't they? From Galileo to Giardano Bruno - those who espoused a different view were condemned by religion - now being on the other side of even a joke doesn't feel so good does it? And yet we get, "you are all going to hell unless you believe as we do" - who is being judgmental?

 

[Learner]

Ask the sick god about its amusement.

The god of reincarnation ? No thanks.

 

[Learner]

It's not like one size fits all - i am not there are zero people who view death calmly of course there are but the vast majority of people fight death tooth and nail, do they not? That is what the cartoon is asking

If you are saying a vast majority of people then this could be true. That would describe and include every human group as a whole on the Earth more or less. The cartoon is ONLY "asking" the theist /Christian sector which is not the vast majority of people fighting tooth or nail as you put it.

And again this becomes an even smaller number ;when amongst the theists only a portion perhaps would be "fighting tooth and nail".

As for Reincarnation - we believe that THIS IS ALL there is - God made this world for us - this universe for us & that's it. Because life is so harsh, people hoped for a nicer aftelife and religions stepped in to tell them what they wanted to hear. Heaven is a religious construct, it is not made by God

People also hope for a better life for other people not just themselves who have NEVER had anything good in life. Born into hardship and sorrow .. dies in hardship and sorrow. I would want them to "experience" happiness and joy that they didn't know existed.

So, the person who dreams of a heaven - an easy breezy life of doing nothing - will come back as a pet - a dog or cat maybe or even a lower form of life - they get their wish, they get their heaven. That is the misunderstanding of Reincarnation

It is far more cruel to keep going round and round in hope that one day they may wish correctly then to slip and start again from the bottom. Reincarnation is a video game.

 

[sharon45]

Ask the sick god about its amusement.

The god of reincarnation ? No thanks.

No, the psycho god that enjoys breaking people's health and spirit enough so that they wish they were dead.

 

[sharon45]

If you are saying a vast majority of people then this could be true. That would describe and include every human group as a whole on the Earth more or less. The cartoon is ONLY "asking" the theist /Christian sector which is not the vast majority of people fighting tooth or nail as you put it.

And again this becomes an even smaller number ;when amongst the theists only a portion perhaps would be "fighting tooth and nail".

Yeah, just a little smaller, since it isn't literal. Almost everyone resists dying. It's virtually hard-wired.

So, the person who dreams of a heaven - an easy breezy life of doing nothing - will come back as a pet - a dog or cat maybe or even a lower form of life - they get their wish, they get their heaven. That is the misunderstanding of Reincarnation

It is far more cruel to keep going round and round in hope that one day they may wish correctly then to slip and start again from the bottom. Reincarnation is a video game.

It is about as cruel as normal random life, because we don't have the actual memories of past lives.

 

[Learner]

No, the psycho god that enjoys breaking people's health and spirit enough so that they wish they were dead.

There are many gods.. which god are you referring to then?

 

[Learner]

Yeah, just a little smaller, since it isn't literal. Almost everyone resists dying. It's virtually hard-wired.

It is about as cruel as normal random life, because we don't have the actual memories of past lives.

Ram had to hear it sooner or later but at least by the 37th post - (giving heaven a break) you thought this time to mention it.

 

[sharon45]

No, the psycho god that enjoys breaking people's health and spirit enough so that they wish they were dead.

There are many gods.. which god are you referring to then?

Obviously the god that is a contradiction which Christians assert they believe in.

 

[sharon45]

Yeah, just a little smaller, since it isn't literal. Almost everyone resists dying. It's virtually hard-wired.

It is about as cruel as normal random life, because we don't have the actual memories of past lives.

Ram had to hear it sooner or later but at least by the 37th post - (giving heaven a break) you thought this time to mention it.

I've been attacking much of his latest threads, some of why he kept thinking that I was also a Christian.