Venezuela: la mierda hits el ventilador

[untermensche]

Things did not get worse for the general population under Chavez.

He ended decades of apartheid policies and millions were lifted by his policies.

AFTER he died corrupt leaders took over and they basically began looting.

That's not completely fair. Chavez was strongly opposed by a rightist opposition that had a lot of money invested in media and the military and were doing everything they could to disrupt his political/social agenda. He tried to go the egalitarian route and seek compromise with them, and when they told him what to go do with himself, he sort of sank to their level and started fighting dirty (started forcing opposition stations off the air, nationalized companies controlled by his critics, seized assets of people lobbying against him, etc). To be equally fair, this is the kind of bullshit Obama went through for 8 years WITHOUT being a socialist; imagine of the Obama Administration pulled FOX News' broadcast license and froze Trump's assets over the whole "birther" thing, eventually forcing both of them to the brink of bankruptcy.

Chavez was no stranger to opposition and he was perfectly willing to accept it (his constitutional reforms were defeated in referendum two or three times) but he dropped the hammer on his enemies with a certain gleeful vindictiveness that his rivals and even a few of his successors interpreted as merely self-interest. So after Chavez, self-interest became state policy, and that's where Venezuela is today. It's just as corrupt as any other south american country, except its government is slightly more powerful.

How many US media outlets directly supported a traitorous and bloody coup?

How do you think the US government would deal with people who plotted to replace it?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

That's not completely fair. Chavez was strongly opposed by a rightist opposition that had a lot of money invested in media and the military and were doing everything they could to disrupt his political/social agenda. He tried to go the egalitarian route and seek compromise with them, and when they told him what to go do with himself, he sort of sank to their level and started fighting dirty (started forcing opposition stations off the air, nationalized companies controlled by his critics, seized assets of people lobbying against him, etc). To be equally fair, this is the kind of bullshit Obama went through for 8 years WITHOUT being a socialist; imagine of the Obama Administration pulled FOX News' broadcast license and froze Trump's assets over the whole "birther" thing, eventually forcing both of them to the brink of bankruptcy.

Chavez was no stranger to opposition and he was perfectly willing to accept it (his constitutional reforms were defeated in referendum two or three times) but he dropped the hammer on his enemies with a certain gleeful vindictiveness that his rivals and even a few of his successors interpreted as merely self-interest. So after Chavez, self-interest became state policy, and that's where Venezuela is today. It's just as corrupt as any other south american country, except its government is slightly more powerful.

How many US media outlets directly supported a traitorous and bloody coup?

Just about all of them, if memory serves...

Wait, you a mean a traitorous and bloody coup against AMERICA?

How do you think the US government would deal with people who plotted to replace it?

Depends on who's in the white house.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

[YOUTUBE]HHTe2Pn7ACg[/YOUTUBE]

Chomsky replies here. Entirely useless capitalists apparently undermined the Venezuelan economy by...leaving. Maybe be a little kink to sort out in the ol' ideology there Noam.

Chomsky praised the work of Chavez.

He never praised the work of the people that replaced him.

All that changed was the name of the guy on top. What we are seeing now is the same looting under the guise of reform that socialists everywhere engage in.

 

[untermensche]

All that changed was the name of the guy on top. What we are seeing now is the same looting under the guise of reform that socialists everywhere engage in.

You're wrong.

You have no ability to make distinctions.

Chavez did one thing the people who took over after he was DEAD did their own thing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

All that changed was the name of the guy on top. What we are seeing now is the same looting under the guise of reform that socialists everywhere engage in.

You're wrong.

You have no ability to make distinctions.

Chavez did one thing the people who took over after he was DEAD did their own thing.

You don't want to accept that Chavez was also bad.

 

[untermensche]

You're wrong.

You have no ability to make distinctions.

Chavez did one thing the people who took over after he was DEAD did their own thing.

You don't want to accept that Chavez was also bad.

He was not a crook. Not looting the treasury.

He lifted millions of Venezuelans who had been ignored and abused for decades from poverty and gave them an education and health care.

But then again perhaps you think this is "bad"?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You don't want to accept that Chavez was also bad.

He was not a crook. Not looting the treasury.

He lifted millions of Venezuelans who had been ignored and abused for decades from poverty and gave them an education and health care.

But then again perhaps you think this is "bad"?

The looting just wasn't as obvious because the pile was bigger.

 

[untermensche]

He was not a crook. Not looting the treasury.

He lifted millions of Venezuelans who had been ignored and abused for decades from poverty and gave them an education and health care.

But then again perhaps you think this is "bad"?

The looting just wasn't as obvious because the pile was bigger.

Sure.

You have no real evidence but that of course never seems to bother you.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The looting just wasn't as obvious because the pile was bigger.

Sure.

You have no real evidence but that of course never seems to bother you.

The problem is you focus on the stealing as a good thing and overlook what he was doing with the money he stole. It was mostly going to his cronies even then, he was making the companies pay for the largess. As their coffers ran dry the theft became more obvious.

 

[skepticalbip]

He was not a crook. Not looting the treasury.

He lifted millions of Venezuelans who had been ignored and abused for decades from poverty and gave them an education and health care.

But then again perhaps you think this is "bad"?

The looting just wasn't as obvious because the pile was bigger.

Well, it sorta becomes fairly obvious if the outrageous wealth his family accumulated while he was in charge of the country is examined.

 

[untermensche]

The looting just wasn't as obvious because the pile was bigger.

Well, it sorta becomes fairly obvious if the outrageous wealth his family accumulated while he was in charge of the country is examined.

You have any REAL evidence of this?

 

[Jayjay]

Well, it sorta becomes fairly obvious if the outrageous wealth his family accumulated while he was in charge of the country is examined.

You have any REAL evidence of this?

Chavez's daughter is the richest person in Venezuela. You think that's a coincidence?

 

[untermensche]

You have any REAL evidence of this?

Chavez's daughter is the richest person in Venezuela. You think that's a coincidence?

Oh what evidence!!!

Do you know what evidence is?

Hint: Mere claims are not evidence.

What reputable source do you have that has confirmed this wealth?

List of Venezuelan billionaires by net worth

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Venezuelan_billionaires_by_net_worth

Is that Chavez's daughter?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The looting just wasn't as obvious because the pile was bigger.

Well, it sorta becomes fairly obvious if the outrageous wealth his family accumulated while he was in charge of the country is examined.

It's not just his family but his cronies also. Seized stuff is given to cronies to run. The billions he amassed is only a small part of the total looting.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, it sorta becomes fairly obvious if the outrageous wealth his family accumulated while he was in charge of the country is examined.

You have any REAL evidence of this?

Try googling "Chavez net worth". Plenty of links. He didn't start with any large amount of money, he didn't grow a corporation, thus he has no legitimate source for the money. It's from looting.

 

[untermensche]

Well, it sorta becomes fairly obvious if the outrageous wealth his family accumulated while he was in charge of the country is examined.

It's not just his family but his cronies also. Seized stuff is given to cronies to run. The billions he amassed is only a small part of the total looting.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, it sorta becomes fairly obvious if the outrageous wealth his family accumulated while he was in charge of the country is examined.

You have any REAL evidence of this?

Try googling "Chavez net worth". Plenty of links. He didn't start with any large amount of money, he didn't grow a corporation, thus he has no legitimate source for the money. It's from looting.

I asked YOU for a link to a reputable source.

You obviously don't have one and have never seen this from one.

The Wikipedia link is from Forbes. They say there is only ONE Venezuelan billionaire.

You are full of shit and simply believe this nonsense about looting because it suits your insanity.

 

[skepticalbip]

It's not just his family but his cronies also. Seized stuff is given to cronies to run. The billions he amassed is only a small part of the total looting.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, it sorta becomes fairly obvious if the outrageous wealth his family accumulated while he was in charge of the country is examined.

You have any REAL evidence of this?

Try googling "Chavez net worth". Plenty of links. He didn't start with any large amount of money, he didn't grow a corporation, thus he has no legitimate source for the money. It's from looting.

I asked YOU for a link to a reputable source.

You obviously don't have one and have never seen this from one.

The Wikipedia link is from Forbes. They say there is only ONE Venezuelan billionaire.

You are full of shit and simply believe this nonsense about looting because it suits your insanity.

Yeah, it's a bitch when you find that god has warts.

 

[untermensche]

It's not just his family but his cronies also. Seized stuff is given to cronies to run. The billions he amassed is only a small part of the total looting.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, it sorta becomes fairly obvious if the outrageous wealth his family accumulated while he was in charge of the country is examined.

You have any REAL evidence of this?

Try googling "Chavez net worth". Plenty of links. He didn't start with any large amount of money, he didn't grow a corporation, thus he has no legitimate source for the money. It's from looting.

I asked YOU for a link to a reputable source.

You obviously don't have one and have never seen this from one.

The Wikipedia link is from Forbes. They say there is only ONE Venezuelan billionaire.

You are full of shit and simply believe this nonsense about looting because it suits your insanity.

Yeah, it's a bitch when you find that god has warts.

Only there is no finding out here.

There are these bogus made up claims with no evidence.

And the children that believe them.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

For what it's worth, the rumor about Chavez's daughter originally came from a spanish-language newspaper, the Diario las Americas in Miami that primarily caters to (and is edited by) central and south American expats. The report listed anonymous sources with little or no evidence in support, promising documentation that never materialized. Of course, this same newspaper and the sources that cited it (e.g. "Fox News") also claimed that Alejandro Andrade had $11 billion in personal assets in a Swiss Bank Account when even a cursory reading of the whistleblower reports suggests those were public funds being sheltered by the government itself for its own use.

As for all verifiable data: The three riches people in Venezuela right now are:
Gustavo Cisneros (worth $3.6 billion)
Juan Carlos Escotet (worth $3.3 billion)
Lorenzo Mendoza (worth $2.7 billion)

For the record, Gustavo Cisneros is NOT a close Chavez supporter and is believed to be involved in the coup to overthrow him. When Chavez was cracking down on opposition media stations, Cisneros' networks were among those targeted, and they wound up having to switch to satellite networks to circumvent the embargo on the use of Venezuelan architecture.

In this sense, Venezuela isn't all that different from any other Latin American country: it's three wealthiest men are bankers, monopolists and telecom tycoons.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's not just his family but his cronies also. Seized stuff is given to cronies to run. The billions he amassed is only a small part of the total looting.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, it sorta becomes fairly obvious if the outrageous wealth his family accumulated while he was in charge of the country is examined.

You have any REAL evidence of this?

Try googling "Chavez net worth". Plenty of links. He didn't start with any large amount of money, he didn't grow a corporation, thus he has no legitimate source for the money. It's from looting.

I asked YOU for a link to a reputable source.

You obviously don't have one and have never seen this from one.

The Wikipedia link is from Forbes. They say there is only ONE Venezuelan billionaire.

You are full of shit and simply believe this nonsense about looting because it suits your insanity.

Forbes doesn't go looking for billionaires that don't want to admit their wealth.

 

[untermensche]

Forbes doesn't go looking for billionaires that don't want to admit their wealth.

Nor do they claim somebody is rich with NO evidence.