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Outrage as faculty caught conspiring to reward less qualified minorities

She didn't evaluate Latinxes as a group. She evaluated 3 specific individuals. With a clear positive bias toward including more Latinxes on the team

That's not what I wrote. The "group" to which I was referring was the group of 3, presumably but not necessarily the Latinxers in the pool of students. How do you know they were the Latinxers?

Person#1 -- alleged to be Latinx -- took critical look at their qualifications
Person#2 -- alleged to be Latinx -- took critical look at their qualifications
Person#3 -- alleged to be Latinx -- took critical look at their qualifications
Person#4 -- alleged NOT to be Latinx -- did NOT take critical look at their qualifications
Person#5 -- alleged NOT to be Latinx -- did NOT take critical look at their qualifications
Person#6 -- alleged NOT to be Latinx -- did NOT take critical look at their qualifications
Person#7 -- alleged NOT to be Latinx -- did NOT take critical look at their qualifications
...
...
Person#N -- alleged NOT to be Latinx -- did NOT take critical look at their qualifications

There is a group difference here. You claim that the intent behind taking the critical look is reverse discrimination. The young lady who was called the "mediocre" one claims that singling them out and the negative assessment of them was biased negatively, to include an evaluation of them as not having mock trial experience though for this particular course it is not a requirement. So, is the young lady only mediocre? Are the other two terrible? Is one of the others unmotivated? Are they all actually Latinx or were assumptions made because the evaluator looked at stereotyped behaviors when she wrote "obviously" to her father?

What evidence is there that her assessment was fair or unfair? The student says unfair.

I have no idea what you are trying to communicate. Can you explain in a way that seems at least slightly consistent with her actual email?

I will retype the parts not mentioned in the article so it's available outside the link.

She says:

"I need your opinion on something. I've started sorting the unregistered students. Looks like we should take 10-11. I have my top 6 or so and my bottom 4, with 7 lumped in the middle-ish. The question I have is about diversity. There were 3 (obviously) latino students who came; 1 was mediocre, 2 were pretty bad (1 of the 2 bad ones didn't seem to take it especially seriously). But we have almost no latino students on the team. If I were to rank purely on performance, I would probably only take 1 of them. Should I take 2? All three? None have mock trial experience. The mediocre one is extremely involved in community activism/organizing (she’s the one I would probably take no matter what, what she lacks in skill she makes up in confidence, although she may be too busy for this commitment."

What exactly leads you to believe she did not look at the qualifications of all the students?
 
That's not what I wrote. The "group" to which I was referring was the group of 3, presumably but not necessarily the Latinxers in the pool of students. How do you know they were the Latinxers?

Person#1 -- alleged to be Latinx -- took critical look at their qualifications
Person#2 -- alleged to be Latinx -- took critical look at their qualifications
Person#3 -- alleged to be Latinx -- took critical look at their qualifications
Person#4 -- alleged NOT to be Latinx -- did NOT take critical look at their qualifications
Person#5 -- alleged NOT to be Latinx -- did NOT take critical look at their qualifications
Person#6 -- alleged NOT to be Latinx -- did NOT take critical look at their qualifications
Person#7 -- alleged NOT to be Latinx -- did NOT take critical look at their qualifications
...
...
Person#N -- alleged NOT to be Latinx -- did NOT take critical look at their qualifications

There is a group difference here. You claim that the intent behind taking the critical look is reverse discrimination. The young lady who was called the "mediocre" one claims that singling them out and the negative assessment of them was biased negatively, to include an evaluation of them as not having mock trial experience though for this particular course it is not a requirement. So, is the young lady only mediocre? Are the other two terrible? Is one of the others unmotivated? Are they all actually Latinx or were assumptions made because the evaluator looked at stereotyped behaviors when she wrote "obviously" to her father?

What evidence is there that her assessment was fair or unfair? The student says unfair.

I have no idea what you are trying to communicate. Can you explain in a way that seems at least slightly consistent with her actual email?

I will retype the parts not mentioned in the article so it's available outside the link.

She says:

"I need your opinion on something. I've started sorting the unregistered students. Looks like we should take 10-11. I have my top 6 or so and my bottom 4, with 7 lumped in the middle-ish. The question I have is about diversity. There were 3 (obviously) latino students who came; 1 was mediocre, 2 were pretty bad (1 of the 2 bad ones didn't seem to take it especially seriously). But we have almost no latino students on the team. If I were to rank purely on performance, I would probably only take 1 of them. Should I take 2? All three? None have mock trial experience. The mediocre one is extremely involved in community activism/organizing (she’s the one I would probably take no matter what, what she lacks in skill she makes up in confidence, although she may be too busy for this commitment."

What exactly leads you to believe she did not look at the qualifications of all the students?

Why are you only reading what the professor's daughter wrote and not what the "mediocre" student wrote about it?
 
I have no idea what you are trying to communicate. Can you explain in a way that seems at least slightly consistent with her actual email?

I will retype the parts not mentioned in the article so it's available outside the link.

She says:

"I need your opinion on something. I've started sorting the unregistered students. Looks like we should take 10-11. I have my top 6 or so and my bottom 4, with 7 lumped in the middle-ish. The question I have is about diversity. There were 3 (obviously) latino students who came; 1 was mediocre, 2 were pretty bad (1 of the 2 bad ones didn't seem to take it especially seriously). But we have almost no latino students on the team. If I were to rank purely on performance, I would probably only take 1 of them. Should I take 2? All three? None have mock trial experience. The mediocre one is extremely involved in community activism/organizing (she’s the one I would probably take no matter what, what she lacks in skill she makes up in confidence, although she may be too busy for this commitment."

What exactly leads you to believe she did not look at the qualifications of all the students?

Why are you only reading what the professor's daughter wrote and not what the "mediocre" student wrote about it?

I'm reading the email the daughter sent privately to her father because that actually contains information about what the daughter did and was thinking. It's also what got her and her father fired.

If you think the student has some relevant knowledge about how the process worked and what the daughter was thinking feel free to add it to the discussion.
 
I've taken her word what her opinion was of 3 individuals, yes. But where does she say anything whatsoever against latinos in general? She's unimpressed with these particular people and bemoans not having better latinos to fill her ideal quota with.

Maybe she misidentified the Latinx persons. Maybe the evaluations are wrong. Maybe they are part of a bias. Why only try to guess people's social construct category of Hispanic race and then evaluate them as a group but not any others?

Because that is what affirmative action type culture indoctrinates; the placement of importance and special attention on race. Race shouldn't matter, but some cling to it like their guns and bibles and push it as important. See the frustrating thread I recently had with Crazy Eddie where he pushed "racial pride" as a good thing. He's not alone. This is the basis of a regressive cultural movement going on right now.

When people are told over and over and over to "appreciate race" etc and regard people with race in mind, this is what you get. People may just pay attention to race and want their "latinxes" to look good.
 
What evidence is there that her assessment was fair or unfair?

It is implied by the phrases "students who came", "were pretty bad" (referring to specific prior event), and "take it seriously" that her evaluation of them was based not merely on their prior experience but on in person interaction at some kind of screening exercise where they have them show their debate chops.

IOW, she had way more predictive information of their actual skills and their ethnic category than almost all University administrators do about either trait when applying AA policies. She had their name, she saw them, heard their speech and accents, etc.. Yes, the stuff that 100% humans use on a constant basis to infer ethnic groups and can do so with high accuracy when the groups are as broad as "Latinx".
Oh, and she knew that this student who complaining was the head to of the Latinx Student Council, because she clearly knew about the extra curricular activities as referenced in her email. AA administrators regularly use the same type of information or much worse, rely on inaccurate and incomplete checking of ethnic identity boxes on applications.

The "obviously" obviously refers to the fact that felt most confident that these 3 students were latinx but recognized she couldn't be sure that were others with a less predictive combo of name, skin tone, accent, and membership in Latinx student groups.

Other relevant evidence is that never having taken a mock trial course is a good predictor of ability to do well at the most advanced course at the nation's premiere University for Mock Trial competition (they have won more than all other schools).
The coach outright lying about their prior course experience in a private email to her dad is implausible, given that it is an easily verifiable fact that the complaining student would have refuted if not true.

The fact that the intro courses we're not listed as formal pre-recs means nothing. The instructor completely determines the pre-recs and they could not register without the coaches permission, which clearly includes come type of of trial/interview. So it merely means that the coach wants to reserve the ability to bring in the occasional student that either has other debate experience or shows exceptional skill in the trial. In doesn't imply they don't and shouldn't regular use prior course experience as a critical factor. They wouldn't have the Intro 200 level course if it wasn't generally thought to be an important stepping stone for most students.

Finally, the daughter is the one who raised the issue of wanting to have a more diverse team. If she had motive to judge these students unfairly negative, then she'd never have raised the diversity issue, just give her Dad her rank order list and put them down at the bottom. She raised this in a private email, not some public statement where she might feign diversity concerns.

This leaves the only plausible inference that any bias was one in favor of assessing these students as more capable than they are. While that doesn't mean she engaged in reverse discrimination, it largely rules out that she unfairly assessed their ability as too low based on inferred race.


The student says unfair.
There is zero information supporting an unfair assessment. That students' feelings have no relevance, because they proved their opinion invalid irrationally inferring the email to be racist based on her fallacious reasoning. In fact, that student's own comment is yet another piece of good evidence that she is "mediocre" at best concerning the kind of rational discourse and argumentation required for this high level advanced course.
 
What is the advantage of using mock trial in a general student population if one isn't going to teach mock trial processes?

They do teach it in their Intro course and another lower level course, but reasonably expect some already developed skill for the most advanced course at the nations #1 competitive Mock Trial school. This advanced course is what these students were trying to get permission to register for.
 
So, take that people who claim that Universities are bubbles of leftist identity politics. The school insta-fired these faculty for their efforts to promote diversity.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...f46c1e2_story.html?nid&utm_term=.8c640bf85e7e

They only got fired because they exposed the scam. And it is perfectly logical extension of the logic of "affirmative action". I wonder what the endgame is. Giving preferred racial and gender groups points not only in admissions but also on tests and assignments?
And after that? Who knows ...


There is nothing associated with affirmative action about this whole kerfuffle.


I've been married to a university professor (although not a professor at this university) for several decades. Trust me: at the beginning of every semester, there is a lot of moaning and groaning about the general quality of students in classes, in any program, etc. This does not center around race, gender, national origin, ethnicity, etc. As the semester goes on, there might be mention that a small group of students (insert gender, ethnicity, race, national origins, etc.) are especially good, especially unprepared, obviously working together on projects (this is allowed), one in the group is obviously stronger/weaker than the other(s), etc. whatever quality you want to insert. Professors notice patterns in their classes--and they notice if a couple of students or a group of students seems to be friends, seem to belong to the same sports team, seem to be from the same home town, same high school, whatever. Sometimes, there is some discussion about a student/small cluster of students who are struggling because of lack of math skills, or lack of language skills or lack of English language skills, etc. Aside from any deficits in English language skills, I've never noticed that it is associates with any race/gender/ethnic group, although sometimes it's noted that the top students are generally female, or sometimes, generally male. It's noticed when there seem to be a pipeline of students from (insert location within the US or outside the US). Not just my spouse, but most professors. Frankly teachers in general make similar level appropriate observations for high school and elementary students as well. They never seem to be as prepared as the teacher expected/remembered past classes being. Generally, this is something that professors bitch about: lack of/poor quality of preparation of students for (whatever).

I didn't see this as being crude. I saw it as an informal exchange between a volunteer and a professor about how to allocate a small number of openings among a large group of applicants that was never intended to be shared further. Please note: the volunteer was informally seeking guidance from an instructor who was familiar with the goals of the university and of the program, obviously thought one of the three applicants would have a lot to offer if she could find time to participate and simply was asking for guidance. The Latino applicants had not had mock trial experience. Most high school students have not, at least not outside of east coast prep schools. The question is whether students who did not attend east coast prep schools can bring as much as prep school students to the team or whether they must be perpetually left behind because they were not fortunate enough to be born near an east coast prep school or to have wealthy parents.
 
They only got fired because they exposed the scam. And it is perfectly logical extension of the logic of "affirmative action". I wonder what the endgame is. Giving preferred racial and gender groups points not only in admissions but also on tests and assignments?
And after that? Who knows ...


There is nothing associated with affirmative action about this whole kerfuffle.


I've been married to a university professor (although not a professor at this university) for several decades. Trust me: at the beginning of every semester, there is a lot of moaning and groaning about the general quality of students in classes, in any program, etc. This does not center around race, gender, national origin, ethnicity, etc. As the semester goes on, there might be mention that a small group of students (insert gender, ethnicity, race, national origins, etc.) are especially good, especially unprepared, obviously working together on projects (this is allowed), one in the group is obviously stronger/weaker than the other(s), etc. whatever quality you want to insert. Professors notice patterns in their classes--and they notice if a couple of students or a group of students seems to be friends, seem to belong to the same sports team, seem to be from the same home town, same high school, whatever. Sometimes, there is some discussion about a student/small cluster of students who are struggling because of lack of math skills, or lack of language skills or lack of English language skills, etc. Aside from any deficits in English language skills, I've never noticed that it is associates with any race/gender/ethnic group, although sometimes it's noted that the top students are generally female, or sometimes, generally male. It's noticed when there seem to be a pipeline of students from (insert location within the US or outside the US). Not just my spouse, but most professors. Frankly teachers in general make similar level appropriate observations for high school and elementary students as well. They never seem to be as prepared as the teacher expected/remembered past classes being. Generally, this is something that professors bitch about: lack of/poor quality of preparation of students for (whatever).

I didn't see this as being crude. I saw it as an informal exchange between a volunteer and a professor about how to allocate a small number of openings among a large group of applicants that was never intended to be shared further. Please note: the volunteer was informally seeking guidance from an instructor who was familiar with the goals of the university and of the program, obviously thought one of the three applicants would have a lot to offer if she could find time to participate and simply was asking for guidance. The Latino applicants had not had mock trial experience. Most high school students have not, at least not outside of east coast prep schools. The question is whether students who did not attend east coast prep schools can bring as much as prep school students to the team or whether they must be perpetually left behind because they were not fortunate enough to be born near an east coast prep school or to have wealthy parents.


That's all very nice, except for the fact her email suggests she had rated all the students based on merit and the Latinos did poorly. Then she asked if she should take them anyway because they want more Latinos on the team. This is pretty much a text book definition of racial preferences.
 
What is the advantage of using mock trial in a general student population if one isn't going to teach mock trial processes?

They do teach it in their Intro course and another lower level course, but reasonably expect some already developed skill for the most advanced course at the nations #1 competitive Mock Trial school. This advanced course is what these students were trying to get permission to register for.

Where are you getting your information, though? According to the student in her Twitter feed, she wrote that mock trials were not a requirement of the course in question. That seems inconsistent with what you are writing.
 
Why are you only reading what the professor's daughter wrote and not what the "mediocre" student wrote about it?

I'm reading the email the daughter sent privately to her father because that actually contains information about what the daughter did and was thinking. It's also what got her and her father fired.

If you think the student has some relevant knowledge about how the process worked and what the daughter was thinking feel free to add it to the discussion.

I already did, but you wrote that you didn't understand the English I used.
 
They do teach it in their Intro course and another lower level course, but reasonably expect some already developed skill for the most advanced course at the nations #1 competitive Mock Trial school. This advanced course is what these students were trying to get permission to register for.

Where are you getting your information, though? According to the student in her Twitter feed, she wrote that mock trials were not a requirement of the course in question. That seems inconsistent with what you are writing.

Wait, so you're saying this girl who wasn't rejected didn't need to have mock trial experience to get in?

Shocking.
 
Where are you getting your information, though? According to the student in her Twitter feed, she wrote that mock trials were not a requirement of the course in question. That seems inconsistent with what you are writing.

Wait, so you're saying this girl who wasn't rejected didn't need to have mock trial experience to get in?

Shocking.

If it didn't matter, then why did the professor's daughter bring it up?
 
Wait, so you're saying this girl who wasn't rejected didn't need to have mock trial experience to get in?

Shocking.

If it didn't matter, then why did the professor's daughter bring it up?

Hmm, see language problems again. If only there were different English words to express the concepts "a course that you must take before this course" and "something that indicates a candidate has merit and/or interest in a program". Oh wait, there are different words. One is a "prerequisite" and the other is a "qualification". Wow, I guess it wasn't such a conundrum after all.
 
Wait, so you're saying this girl who wasn't rejected didn't need to have mock trial experience to get in?

Shocking.

If it didn't matter, then why did the professor's daughter bring it up?

It might be a course where only the evaluation of the professor is required, but having taken a previous course can still count positively towards you being let in, since space is limited, but the professor reserves the right to take anyone.
 
There is nothing associated with affirmative action about this whole kerfuffle.


I've been married to a university professor (although not a professor at this university) for several decades. Trust me: at the beginning of every semester, there is a lot of moaning and groaning about the general quality of students in classes, in any program, etc. This does not center around race, gender, national origin, ethnicity, etc. As the semester goes on, there might be mention that a small group of students (insert gender, ethnicity, race, national origins, etc.) are especially good, especially unprepared, obviously working together on projects (this is allowed), one in the group is obviously stronger/weaker than the other(s), etc. whatever quality you want to insert. Professors notice patterns in their classes--and they notice if a couple of students or a group of students seems to be friends, seem to belong to the same sports team, seem to be from the same home town, same high school, whatever. Sometimes, there is some discussion about a student/small cluster of students who are struggling because of lack of math skills, or lack of language skills or lack of English language skills, etc. Aside from any deficits in English language skills, I've never noticed that it is associates with any race/gender/ethnic group, although sometimes it's noted that the top students are generally female, or sometimes, generally male. It's noticed when there seem to be a pipeline of students from (insert location within the US or outside the US). Not just my spouse, but most professors. Frankly teachers in general make similar level appropriate observations for high school and elementary students as well. They never seem to be as prepared as the teacher expected/remembered past classes being. Generally, this is something that professors bitch about: lack of/poor quality of preparation of students for (whatever).

I didn't see this as being crude. I saw it as an informal exchange between a volunteer and a professor about how to allocate a small number of openings among a large group of applicants that was never intended to be shared further. Please note: the volunteer was informally seeking guidance from an instructor who was familiar with the goals of the university and of the program, obviously thought one of the three applicants would have a lot to offer if she could find time to participate and simply was asking for guidance. The Latino applicants had not had mock trial experience. Most high school students have not, at least not outside of east coast prep schools. The question is whether students who did not attend east coast prep schools can bring as much as prep school students to the team or whether they must be perpetually left behind because they were not fortunate enough to be born near an east coast prep school or to have wealthy parents.

That's all very nice, except for the fact her email suggests she had rated all the students based on merit and the Latinos did poorly. Then she asked if she should take them anyway because they want more Latinos on the team.
You have quoted nothing from this woman that could indicates that. She explained why she did not take any latinos. That was it.
 
There is nothing associated with affirmative action about this whole kerfuffle.

Sticking your head in the sand doesn't make it go away. She was asking if she should take inferior students in the name of diversity. AA in a nutshell.
 
There is nothing associated with affirmative action about this whole kerfuffle.

Sticking your head in the sand doesn't make it go away. She was asking if she should take inferior students in the name of diversity.
No, she was not. She was explaining why she was not choosing those students.

Apparently, ideology is trumping reading comprehension for "libertarians" in this thread.
 
No, she was not. She was explaining why she was not choosing those students.
You are completely ignoring her asking "Should I take 2? All three?" She asks if she should take them because of their ethnicity, even though she would not take them on merit. That is core ideology on which AA is built.
Apparently, ideology is trumping reading comprehension for "libertarians" in this thread.
LMAO! You are the ones reading at the "Good night Moon" level.
 
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