Charlottesville: video evidence that the alt-right attacked first

[Elixir]

Not a dumbshit reactionary asshole like you.

Dumbshit reactionary assholes reacting to Nazis:

 

[skepticalbip]

But these guys in Virginia aren't the *real* Nazis. They have no death camps and have yet to partition Poland.

Neither did the German Nazis at first, it took them a bit to build up to that. We can't afford to wait and let that happen again. Der Gropenfuhrer and his minions need to be stopped well before they get to that point.

To limit the possibility of it happening again, it is best to let them speak so the public can see how crazy their ideas are rather than mobs silencing them by attacking them with sticks and stones. The Skokie march in 1977 was peaceful and it allowed people to really see how absurd the klan is. Klan membership dropped after that march. Mobs beating them with sticks makes them victims and Americans love to side with victims.

 

[Elixir]

And this illustrates exactly the point that everyone is trying to make. You're drawing an equivalence between the Crips and the Nazis. That equivalence is invalid because the Crips are in no way as bad as the Nazis.

But these guys in Virginia aren't the *real* Nazis. They have no death camps and have yet to partition Poland.

Right on. We must wait until there are death camps and newly drawn national borders before we actually condemn them. Using ISIS tactics to kill and main 20-odd people is surely not sufficient. They are still "very fine people".

 

[dismal]

Not a dumbshit reactionary asshole like you.

Dumbshit reactionary assholes reacting to Nazis:

View attachment 12205

Yeah, good call. The modern equivalent of D-day is flinging about irresponsible unfounded accusations of Naziism on the internet. And Underseer is the new Eisenhower.

- - - Updated - - -

But these guys in Virginia aren't the *real* Nazis. They have no death camps and have yet to partition Poland.

Right on. We must wait until there are death camps and newly drawn national borders before we actually condemn them. Using ISIS tactics to kill and main 20-odd people is surely not sufficient. They are still "very fine people".

You better check under your bed. The Nazis and grumpkins are hatching their plans under there.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I think their speech in the march was a call to violence and not protected speech.

...

They can admire Hitler all they want. When they go out on to the streets, saying they want the Jews to die while carrying torches... we go into indefensible territory.

That's why I don't defend the content of their speech. I defend their right to speak, not the content of their speech. If you want someone to defend the content of their speech, go find someone who advocates censorship to do it.

And I'll even defend the right to advocate censorship while advocating against censorship.

 

[J842P]

But they're celebrating and idolizing the group which did. That makes them the group you put yourself on the other side from, regardless of any other groups in the area (Mormons not included, of course).

Yeah, but my point is that we consider the Nazis pinnacle of modern evil because of specific evil things they actually did. Not because they said things we don't like.

"Celebrating" and "idolizing" are a long way from "doing".

Most Nazi's didn't do any of the evil things we dislike about the "Nazis", but we consider them evil all the same because of the association.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Most Nazi's didn't do any of the evil things we dislike about the "Nazis", but we consider them evil all the same because of the association.

You might notice sometimes, on the commercials for upcoming movies, they play music from a completely different soundtrack. The studio advertises a movie with clips of the content, usually all the best lines of best characters, but that music in the background provides further description. They'll play a Star Trek soundtrack if they think the movie is the sort of thing Star Trek fans might find appealing, for one reason or another.

The studio, or network, has a whole host of iconic tunes from the soundtrack of popular movies, hoping that the viewer dollar will be enticed by the associations.

Today's Nazis, having a whole SWATH of human history to choose from, chose to associate themselves with, well, the Nazis.
Not the Jesuits, or the Know Nothings, or the Scrabble Tournament Players' Union (Denver Branch), or Trekkers. They knew, or should have known, or could be reasonably expected to have known, that people would make the most obvious association, and not thinking "Hey, there were some Nazis who did not want the genocide" or "Some Nazis were just caught up in something they didnt' understand and didn't think was nearly as bad as people said."
Rather, they have to figure that there are things that come to mind when you hear 'Nazi,' and these people choose that association. CHeerfully and proudly associated themselves with genocide, racial purity, religious intolerance, and a complete lack of humor.

So it's kind of stupid to pretend they don't deserve to be associated with that. That's what they went out and demanded they be associated with!

 

[Shadowy Man]

Clearly, Americans carrying Nazi flags are merely calling for improved economic conditions in Germany. Why else?

 

[dismal]

Yeah, but my point is that we consider the Nazis pinnacle of modern evil because of specific evil things they actually did. Not because they said things we don't like.

"Celebrating" and "idolizing" are a long way from "doing".

Most Nazi's didn't do any of the evil things we dislike about the "Nazis", but we consider them evil all the same because of the association.

So "we" watch Hogan's Heroes and consider Schulz evil because he associates with the Nazis?

I don't recall us thinking that.

 

[Keith&Co.]

So "we" watch Hogan's Heroes and consider Schulz evil because he associates with the Nazis?

I don't recall us thinking that.

Were you supposed to?
I'm pretty sure you were supposed to think Shultz was fat and stupid and easily defeated by the clever Allies.

Pretty much the same setting was used in The Secret War Of Harry Figg, and the prison guards were easily understood to be evil.
Same as the guards in The Great Escape.

But still, if the Allied prisoners had been caught red-handed by that Gestapo officer, sneaking prisoners out of the camp, would Shultz have followed orders to shoot them, or defended them and shot Hochstetter?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

...unfounded accusations of Naziism on the internet....

Yes, the thousand white guys with tiki torches weren't really Nazis and any objective evidence you see otherwise is Luegenpresse.

Sieg Heil!

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

...unfounded accusations of Naziism on the internet....

Yes, the thousand white guys with tiki torches weren't really Nazis and any objective evidence you see otherwise is Luegenpresse.

Sieg Heil!

The news reports that I read about Charlottesville said it was a couple hundred. Of course I haven't followed up on it. Do you have a good source for a good number?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Yes, the thousand white guys with tiki torches weren't really Nazis and any objective evidence you see otherwise is Luegenpresse.

Sieg Heil!

The news reports that I read about Charlottesville said it was a couple hundred. Of course I haven't followed up on it. Do you have a good source for a good number?

It's a moot point if it was ten, a hundred or ten thousand. If you're asked about a group of Nazis and your response is anything other than a variation of "Of course those guys suck ... they're frigging Nazis", then there is something fundamentally wrong with you as a human being. The people trying to draw moral equivalence between Nazis and not-Nazis are just broken.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think their speech in the march was a call to violence and not protected speech.

...

They can admire Hitler all they want. When they go out on to the streets, saying they want the Jews to die while carrying torches... we go into indefensible territory.

That's why I don't defend the content of their speech. I defend their right to speak, not the content of their speech. If you want someone to defend the content of their speech, go find someone who advocates censorship to do it.

And I'll even defend the right to advocate censorship while advocating against censorship.

I think the high altitude is making you loopy. I said I don't believe their speech is protected due to the implied threat within it.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

That's why I don't defend the content of their speech. I defend their right to speak, not the content of their speech. If you want someone to defend the content of their speech, go find someone who advocates censorship to do it.

And I'll even defend the right to advocate censorship while advocating against censorship.

I think the high altitude is making you loopy. I said I don't believe their speech is protected due to the implied threat within it.

Unless there is a direct threat, any restriction on free speech is "we must become like them to defeat them." When Nietzsche cautioned people to be careful when fighting monsters lest one become a monster, he was not advising people that they should become monsters in order to defeat the monsters.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I’m here because our Republican values are: standing up for our local white identity…which is under threat; the free market; and killing Jews.

Free speech, free speech!

https://marjoriearonsbarron.com/

 

[dismal]

So "we" watch Hogan's Heroes and consider Schulz evil because he associates with the Nazis?

I don't recall us thinking that.

Were you supposed to?
I'm pretty sure you were supposed to think Shultz was fat and stupid and easily defeated by the clever Allies.

Pretty much the same setting was used in The Secret War Of Harry Figg, and the prison guards were easily understood to be evil.
Same as the guards in The Great Escape.

But still, if the Allied prisoners had been caught red-handed by that Gestapo officer, sneaking prisoners out of the camp, would Shultz have followed orders to shoot them, or defended them and shot Hochstetter?

Going by what I read here: yes, you were supposed to think Schulz was evil because he was associated with the Nazis.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Were you supposed to?
I'm pretty sure you were supposed to think Shultz was fat and stupid and easily defeated by the clever Allies.

Pretty much the same setting was used in The Secret War Of Harry Figg, and the prison guards were easily understood to be evil.
Same as the guards in The Great Escape.

But still, if the Allied prisoners had been caught red-handed by that Gestapo officer, sneaking prisoners out of the camp, would Shultz have followed orders to shoot them, or defended them and shot Hochstetter?

Going by what I read here: yes, you were supposed to think Schulz was evil because he was associated with the Nazis.

Yes, you're right dismal, everything you see on TV is real, including the way concentration camps were run on Hogan's Heroes. None of the sergeants at concentration camps in Germany knew people were being gassed. Many of the German soldiers working for the concentration camps were just there for their heritage. And there was terrible violence on both sides.

 

[blastula]

So "we" watch Hogan's Heroes and consider Schulz evil because he associates with the Nazis?

I don't recall us thinking that.

Were you supposed to?
I'm pretty sure you were supposed to think Shultz was fat and stupid and easily defeated by the clever Allies.

Pretty much the same setting was used in The Secret War Of Harry Figg, and the prison guards were easily understood to be evil.
Same as the guards in The Great Escape.

But still, if the Allied prisoners had been caught red-handed by that Gestapo officer, sneaking prisoners out of the camp, would Shultz have followed orders to shoot them, or defended them and shot Hochstetter?

A good Nazi would shoot Lebeau.

 

[Achwienichtig]

I almost entirely agree with the OP. I say this because I don't believe that for any battle between Nazis and Xs that Nazis are always worse than Xs for whatever Xs happen to be. There have been any number of genocidal, warmongering regimes throughout history. I don't automatically call Nazis the worst.

To the actual issue at hand, however, though I do not always support the tactics used by Antifa, I believe their cause is just, and they definitively have the moral high ground here over the Nazis. There is no moral equivalency here.