Venezuela: la mierda hits el ventilador

[Derec]

Surprised that there hasn't been a thread already.
On Sunday Maduro held an election for the constituent assembly, which is supposed to rewrite the constitution to make it more friendly to the "Bolivarian Revolution" and bypass Congress, which has opposition majority. The vote, unsurprisingly, was very much rigged.
Venezuelans lead UK firm that disputes Venezuela election

In other news, "strong" Bolivar is now worth less than the video game equivalent of Monopoly money.
Venezuela’s Cash Is Now Worth Less Than Currency in ‘World of Warcraft’
Dollar Today has the value even lower.

Maduro is going full dictator. And unlike Chavez, Maduro has the number 1 qualification for a proper dictator: facial hair.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Right. Thinking caps on, people. How can we blame America for all of this?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Right. Thinking caps on, people. How can we blame America for all of this?

Hard to tell. The W Admin prematurely supported a failed coup to prevent Hugo Chavez from becoming the leader. That certainly didn't help the US become cozy with the nation. What happens from there, who knows. The nation went for doing well to a giveaway nation while a small group of people absorbed most of the nation's assets. This nation was about as socialist as China is communist.

 

[dismal]

This nation was about as socialist as China is communist.

Yes!

I predicted a few years back in this very space that Venezuela would soon complete the journey from "place where socialism is working" to "place where socialism was never tried".

 

[LordKiran]

This nation was about as socialist as China is communist.

Yes!

I predicted a few years back in this very space that Venezuela would soon complete the journey from "place where socialism is working" to "place where socialism was never tried".

Socialism works just fine here for what it's worth...

 

[untermensche]

This nation was about as socialist as China is communist.

Yes!

I predicted a few years back in this very space that Venezuela would soon complete the journey from "place where socialism is working" to "place where socialism was never tried".

What did you predict about capitalist Haiti or Guatemala at that time?

Chavez started something that was abandoned for something else after he died.

Just like Stalin started something new when he came to power.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Because Venezuela was so great under Chavez and these current problems are absolutely and in no way a direct follow up to the non-issues he definitely did not create in that country.

 

[untermensche]

Because Venezuela was so great under Chavez and these current problems are absolutely and in no way a direct follow up to the non-issues he definitely did not create in that country.

Exactly.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Chavez, who was under constant attack from the rich former ruling class of Venezuela and the US.

This is about the people who took over after Chavez who were not Chavez.

Just a reversion to typical corrupt government.

The kind of government we have seen in many capitalist nations.

Mexico is an example.

 

[iolo]

In my view the bores have only just realised that the Berlin Wall has gone and disappeared, and they've decided to bore us to death with Venezuela instead.

 

[LordKiran]

Because Venezuela was so great under Chavez and these current problems are absolutely and in no way a direct follow up to the non-issues he definitely did not create in that country.

Exactly.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Chavez, who was under constant attack from the rich former ruling class of Venezuela and the US.

This is about the people who took over after Chavez who were not Chavez.

Just a reversion to typical corrupt government.

The kind of government we have seen in many capitalist nations.

Mexico is an example.

Unter I think that was sarcasm.

 

[Derec]

Hard to tell. The W Admin prematurely supported a failed coup to prevent Hugo Chavez from becoming the leader.

The attempted coup was actually a couple of years after Chavez took power. And Chavez is certyainly not the one to complain about cops because he attempted one before he got elected.

That certainly didn't help the US become cozy with the nation. What happens from there, who knows. The nation went for doing well to a giveaway nation while a small group of people absorbed most of the nation's assets. This nation was about as socialist as China is communist.

Chavez was very lucky that his taking power coincided with an unprecedented increase in oil prices. WHen he was elected in 1999, oil prices were in the teens. By 2008, they were over $100/bbl. That gave his government huge windfalls that allowed him both to implement his social programs and to mask over the destructive socilaist policies he has been implementing.

 

[Derec]

Socialism works just fine here for what it's worth...

How is Pennsylvania socialist?

 

[Derec]

Chavez started something that was abandoned for something else after he died.

Wrong. Maduro continued what Chavez has started. The only difference between the two, other than lack of charisma and the mustache, is that Maduro took power when the oil prices were on a downswing, rather than an upswing. That, and the "Bolivarian revolution" being further along by 2013, meant that oil riches could no longer mask the rot that has set in rather early during Chavez' reign. For example, PDVSA was used as piggy bank for pet projects and was starved of investment, which meant that oil production was actually decreasing.

Just like Stalin started something new when he came to power.

Stalin was the continuationm of the same Bolshevism that was going on before him.

 

[Derec]

This has absolutely nothing to do with Chavez, who was under constant attack from the rich former ruling class of Venezuela and the US.

It has everything to do with Chavez. He is the one who set Venezuela on this course.

This is about the people who took over after Chavez who were not Chavez.

They (or rather he) continued his policies. Expropriation of private business owners, currency controls, price controls, not investing in PDVSA, etc. were all going on before Chavez' death. But when oil prices are >$100/bbl the damage they cause is not as apparent.

Just a reversion to typical corrupt government.

Chavez was corrupt himself, but the Boligarchs are not only corrupt, they are incapable of running a country because their idiology is whack.

Mexico is an example.

For all their problems, they are no Venezuela.

 

[LordKiran]

Socialism works just fine here for what it's worth...

How is Pennsylvania socialist?

I was more referring to the US as a whole, where social programs and spending turns out to be a net positive, all that infrastructure like roads and highways and schools and fire houses and police stations? Social spending. The only person around who advocates for pure socialism without constraint is unter, the rest of us have a more reasoned outlook that advocates for the mixed economy that balances private and public interests.

This is what sepperates me (And others) from Unter; he sees no place in society for profiteers, where I reason that profiteers and the free market are not a simple one size fits all solution to our every problem. The private prison system as a whole didn't benefit our society much, nor would a privatized police system.

 

[Derec]

I was more referring to the US as a whole, where social programs and spending turns out to be a net positive, all that infrastructure like roads and highways and schools and fire houses and police stations? Social spending. The only person around who advocates for pure socialism without constraint is unter, the rest of us have a more reasoned outlook that advocates for the mixed economy that balances private and public interests.

That is not socialism, that is just having a functioning government.
Socialism is an economic system where means of production are, in teh main, publicly owned and controlled.
Chavez/Maduro expropriating private businesses and converting them to public ownership/control is an example.
A government building roads etc. is not.

 

[LordKiran]

I was more referring to the US as a whole, where social programs and spending turns out to be a net positive, all that infrastructure like roads and highways and schools and fire houses and police stations? Social spending. The only person around who advocates for pure socialism without constraint is unter, the rest of us have a more reasoned outlook that advocates for the mixed economy that balances private and public interests.

That is not socialism, that is just having a functioning government.

It also isn't an Objectivist Utopia either.

 

[Derec]

It also isn't an Objectivist Utopia either.

Well duh.

 

[LordKiran]

It also isn't an Objectivist Utopia either.

Well duh.

Just saying, this isn't a "One or the other" scenario, socialism is like anything else, too much is poisonous. But that doesn't mean that it hasn't been beneficial where applied.

 

[Derec]

Just saying, this isn't a "One or the other" scenario, socialism is like anything else, too much is poisonous. But that doesn't mean that it hasn't been beneficial where applied.

But it still doesn't mean that having government do some things means that it is "socialism". That is a misuse of the term.

BTW, latest from Venezuela:
Venezuela prosecutor Luisa Ortega condemns office 'siege'