I have now met a real life creationist.

[T.G.G. Moogly]

That's my point.
We recognise the immorality of those sins/evils.
If we had no internal moral compass rape would be nothing more than a fetish.

And that makes everything okay?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Is there something in their literature that says so? Please point me to it.

"Studies in the Scriptures" I've actually read it.

With no proof for this allegation forthcoming, this charge is sufficiently debunked.

So you deny that JW use Studies in the Scriptures as a companion piece to it?

 

[funinspace]

It's no surprise that the so-called golden rule appears in so many civilisations.
We are created moral beings in God's likeness.
Confucius and Moses both understood the transcendence of the moral law.

Nice punt attempt on the oldest recorded maxim of reciprocity bragging rights you were angling for...

Or we are all the same species and social behavior conditions led societies to similar conclusions regarding beneficial behavior.

 

[funinspace]

Yep, pretty funny. Moses who? What Exodus? Or should I say Moshe, which in the Egyptian language means "son of"...kind of a funny name. Sounds like the story tellers knew very little of Egypt by the time his fairly tales were getting solidified. Maybe Moshe is hanging out with Jason and his Golden Fleece, after all archaeologists think they have found their family grounds. So there must be a Golden Fleece...

Well people are making comparisons with Sargon in Sumeria with Moses where some also incredibly spoke with semetic languages way back then , obviously there is the issue as who plagarised who. Besides Moses may seem to have quite a few meanings in Egyptian apparently; Child or son. Interestingly "son of" may have some correlation with the idea that some researches think Moses is not the full name -a "son of" something as in Thutmose but would need looking into a little more of course.

Yep, there are quite a few tidbits that show up in Sumerian legend and the Torah. A non-literalist would be inclined to consider Jewish borrowing of the much older legends.

My favorite is what may be considered the oldest literary pun, being from within the Epic of Gilgamesh. The goddess Ninti's name means both "lady of the rib," and "lady who makes live".

 

[DrZoidberg]

It's no surprise that the so-called golden rule appears in so many civilisations.
We are created moral beings in God's likeness.
Confucius and Moses both understood the transcendence of the moral law.

So what's your theory for putting into the Bible? If it's universal the purpose isn't to teach us morals.

 

[Lion IRC]

...Nice punt attempt on the oldest recorded maxim of reciprocity bragging rights you were angling for.

Nope. I wasn't 'angling' for that.
Just reflecting on the fact that it didn't originate in the New Testament or in Confucius or even the Torah.

...Or we are all the same species and social behavior conditions led societies to similar conclusions regarding beneficial behavior.

...all sharing the same Creator

 

[Lion IRC]

So what's your theory for putting into the Bible? If it's universal the purpose isn't to teach us morals.

To teach us.
To remind us.
To warn us.
It varies from person to person.

I think God likes one-on-one relationships.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I think God likes one-on-one relationships.

Well, that explains the need for a single infallible and unalterable scripture which doesn't change for thousands of years. It's all about tailoring things to the individual.

 

[Lion IRC]

Scripture came relatively late.
There was no 'bible' in the time of Abraham and Isaac.
Job never read the book of Job.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Scripture came relatively late.
There was no 'bible' in the time of Abraham and Isaac.
Job never read the book of Job.

Well, that's because God made him blind because of a bet. If he could have read it, he'd have realized that the guy he was keeping faithful to is just a straight up dick.

"Hey, sorry I murdered your family, dude ... but on the upside, I won an argument. Love ya, buddy."

 

[funinspace]

Nice punt attempt on the oldest recorded maxim of reciprocity bragging rights you were angling for...

Nope. I wasn't 'angling' for that.
Just reflecting on the fact that it didn't originate in the New Testament or in Confucius or even the Torah.

Uh-huh, yeah sure...

Give me an example, from Confucius' philosophy, that could benefit me and the rest of humanity.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

...oh wait! Never mind.
That's from the Torah. (Long before Confucius)
I'll keep looking

 

[wilson]

“. . .Do not speak in the ears of the stupid one, For he will despise the wisdom of your words.” (Proverbs 23:9) That is ever so true.

In the Bible, the New Testament, Jesus repeatedly tells us to sell all we have and give to the poor. Do you really follow the commands of Jesus? Does the Bible really mean anything to you?
Luke 14:33
In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

I wonder what it means to you. Things are not always what they seem.
Look at the context.
Jesus is talking about counting the cost before beginning any project; i.e. the cost of building a tower, and/or, engaging an enemy with far superior numbers than you have.
He was emphasizing the responsibilities of discipleship; the willingness to part with all of our material goods for his sake.

 

[DrZoidberg]

In the Bible, the New Testament, Jesus repeatedly tells us to sell all we have and give to the poor. Do you really follow the commands of Jesus? Does the Bible really mean anything to you?
Luke 14:33
In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

I wonder what it means to you. Things are not always what they seem.
Look at the context.
Jesus is talking about counting the cost before beginning any project; i.e. the cost of building a tower, and/or, engaging an enemy with far superior numbers than you have.
He was emphasizing the responsibilities of discipleship; the willingness to part with all of our material goods for his sake.

Typical JW nonsense. You can't just use common sense from a modern world. If you want to understand Mediterrenean iron age references you've got to rest it on academic works from people who have done this kind of anthropological work. We know enough about the ancient Levant to make educated guesses about what is meant by this.

Those passages refer to the fact that Christianity was initially apocalyptical. They thought Armageddon was going to happen in their generation. So there was no point amassing worldly possessions. If you did you were probably not a Christian and therefore suspect.

Might also have something to do with that early Christians were predominantly slaves. One can see how a religion that holds up owning nothing is a virtue might appeal to people who literally owns nothing. They don't even own their own persons.

This is the reason why Charles Taze Russel's work is so stupid. He's making no effort other than just hoping what he think they probably meant. Backed up by no research other than just the text itself. It's the Dunning-Kruger paradox. He didn't have the education to tell him that his "research" was a waste of time. But the world has moved on. You should know better. You have access to information Russel didn't. You have access to the Internet!

 

[wilson]

The video you posted is an excellent example. This is actually something I like about Jehovas witnesses. They've accepted that the Bible is out of date, and they've created a companion piece to it. An update.

Is there something in their literature that says so? Please point me to it.

"Studies in the Scriptures" I've actually read it.

With no proof for this allegation forthcoming, this charge is sufficiently debunked.

So you deny that JW use Studies in the Scriptures as a companion piece to it?

Nothing to deny. JWs do not use "Studies in the Scriptures" at all!
You alleged:

They've accepted that the Bible is out of date, and they've created a companion piece to it. An update.

That is simply not true. There is no need for any updates:
“. . .“I am bearing witness to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things that are written about in this scroll.” (Revelation 22:18, 19)

““Now look! I am about to die, and you well know with all your heart and with all your soul that not one word out of all the good promises that Jehovah your God has spoken to you has failed. They have all come true for you. Not one word of them has failed.” (Joshua 23:14)
“By myself I have sworn; The word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness, And it will not return: To me every knee will bend, Every tongue will swear loyalty” (Isaiah 45:23)
“. . .So my word that goes out of my mouth will be. It will not return to me without results, But it will certainly accomplish whatever is my delight, And it will have sure success in what I send it to do.” (Isaiah 55:11)

I asked you to show me something in our literature that says we made an update to the bible. You failed to provide that information, so your claim is debunked!

 

[wilson]

I wonder what it means to you. Things are not always what they seem.
Look at the context.
Jesus is talking about counting the cost before beginning any project; i.e. the cost of building a tower, and/or, engaging an enemy with far superior numbers than you have.
He was emphasizing the responsibilities of discipleship; the willingness to part with all of our material goods for his sake.

Typical JW nonsense. You can't just use common sense from a modern world. If you want to understand Mediterrenean iron age references you've got to rest it on academic works from people who have done this kind of anthropological work. We know enough about the ancient Levant to make educated guesses about what is meant by this.

Those passages refer to the fact that Christianity was initially apocalyptical. They thought Armageddon was going to happen in their generation. So there was no point amassing worldly possessions. If you did you were probably not a Christian and therefore suspect.

Might also have something to do with that early Christians were predominantly slaves. One can see how a religion that holds up owning nothing is a virtue might appeal to people who literally owns nothing. They don't even own their own persons.

This is the reason why Charles Taze Russel's work is so stupid. He's making no effort other than just hoping what he think they probably meant. Backed up by no research other than just the text itself. It's the Dunning-Kruger paradox. He didn't have the education to tell him that his "research" was a waste of time. But the world has moved on. You should know better. You have access to information Russel didn't. You have access to the Internet!

Here it is - plain as day.
“. . .Whoever does not carry his torture stake and come after me cannot be my disciple. 28 For example, who of you wanting to build a tower does not first sit down and calculate the expense to see if he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, he might lay its foundation but not be able to finish it, and all the onlookers would start to ridicule him, 30 saying: ‘This man started to build but was not able to finish.’ 31 Or what king marching out against another king in war does not first sit down and take counsel whether he is able with 10,000 troops to stand up to the one who comes against him with 20,000? 32 If, in fact, he cannot do so, then while that one is yet far away, he sends out a body of ambassadors and sues for peace. 33 In the same way, you may be sure that not one of you who does not say good-bye to all his belongings can be my disciple. 34 “Salt, to be sure, is fine. But if the salt loses its strength, with what will it be seasoned? 35 It is not suitable for soil or for manure. People throw it away. Let the one who has ears to listen, listen.”” (Luke 14:27-35)

First-century Christians did not believe that Armageddon would come in their day.
They have the words of Jesus to that effect:
Read Matthew 25:13-33.
And then there's this:
“. . .But the one who has endured to the end will be saved. 14 And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:13, 14)

The preaching of the Gospel is to be spread throughout the entire earth BEFORE the end comes.
Let's see the evidence that first-century Christians were predominantly slaves.
First-century Christians would come from here:
“. . .“Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.” (Matthew 10:11-14)

In agricultural communities, most slaves did not work indoors, hence would not be in a position to answer the knocking.
Slaves would be effectively prohibited from wasting the master's time by listening to preachers at the door.

Try again.

 

[none]

I could see it now "you, don't answer the door", brilliant comeback
Still some would answer the door, thus justifying a knock
Seriously, the main parts of the bible are unconfirmed: eden, global flood, exodus, and Jesus.
Knock or no knock.
And we haven't even begun to address faith
Contamination an apologists friend, right?

 

[bilby]

If you are not a friend, a family member, or a representative of an organisation I currently do business with (with a good reason to call, and preferably with an appointment), then don't knock on my door.

I don't care how important it is to you to tell me about a wonderful opportunity to buy something, donate to something, worship something, or vote for someone - in the unlikely event that I want to do any of these things, then rest assured, I will come to you.

Unsolicited door-knocking is rude and frankly immoral behaviour; and you have no right to be upset when I am not polite and cheery in my response to your interruption of my life, no matter how cheerfully you greet me.

It's not your place to use up my irreplaceable time with things that you have decided I should care about. If you wouldn't take my money without my permission, then neither should you take my time. And if you do take either from me, don't expect me to be gentle with you in my response.

 

[none]

This is very confused conversation. The point is that the Bible is a standard work in a genre called wisdom literature. It's nothing special.

The equivalent today would be people posting inspirational graphic meme-quotes on their Facebook.

You're trying somehow to make a claim that the Bible has stood the test of time. Well... so has Confusianism. Confusianism is still influential. Christian philosophy seems to have died out completely in the 17'th century. Protestantism I think should be considered a wholly new religion.
But even Catholicism reformed after the reformation.

The point is that his philosophy has stood the test of time.

Wicked and inadequate rulership has also "stood the test of time." That's no recommendation! If it was, then all that humanity can expect is more of the same.

Great that we seem to agree. The fact that something is old, doesn't mean it's valuable. Great to see that you've come our as an atheist.

Shoppenhaur introduced eastern philosophy into Western and created a blend of the two. Changed the world. Everything after Shoppenhaur is strongly influenced by Confucius. That includes Nietzsche, Heidegger, Sartre, Derrida and so on. His philosophy and ideas are today ubiquitous and so accepted in the west that we don't realise the source. We just think they are common sense now.

In what way is the world a better place because of these philosophies? Have they been able to solve the more important issues plaguing mankind? Issues involving justice, fair distribution of the world's commodities, warfare, violence, racism, prejudice, crime, terrorism, etc.?

I think truth is a worthwhile goal in itself. I don't see the point in Christian willfull delusion. Why do they pretend to believe things that are patently absurd? Does it really matter that the truth is less comforting? It's true. That should be reason enough to believe it.

The west has a long history of taking ideas from the "colonies" and re-branding them as western. Confucius is no exception.

But the problems remain.

No, they don't. When we abandoned Christianity we got democracy and the greatest wealth and equality the world has ever seen. We have peace and the lowest prevalence of violent crime in history.

You're like a guy who got the weakest hand at the poker table, but still think you won.

Also, terrible advice.

I don't think so! We choose to live according to the law because this is what Jehovah our God wants us to do. We have and obligation to pass on to others the good things we have learned about the coming kingdom of God and we cannot do so as criminals.

So might makes right? You seem awfully confused about the terminology. Either you have an ethical argument based on logic or you fall back on power. Power is just the threat or violence.

This is how you perpetuate tyranny.

You can go fight the law if you like, but we will not join you in doing that.

Well, evil is evil. I'm going to fight it no matter how powerful the evil is. I'd rather die than live the life of a slave.

3. This is just a description of Christians, but with an alternative fetish.

Really? Now you should make the connection. Show us what part of the Christian scriptures command, advocate or tolerates idolatry of any kind.

You're a loony. No, I won't use the Bible as an authoritative text. Guess why? Because it isn't one. It's just any random book like any other.

Praying to gods is an equally worthless activity for both pagans and Christians.

Isn't that just your opinion?

It's actually backed up by science.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567

The amounts of money been put into this by religious groups in order to prove the efficacy of prayer is absurd. It's preposterous amounts of money. All the experiments are a total failure. No matter how they're posed. But the research will continue no doubt. This is faith in action. No brains. Just faith.

Of their phallic worship, archaeologist W.*F.*Albright observes that: “At its worst, .*.*. the erotic aspect of their cult must have sunk to extremely sordid depths of social degradation.”—Archaeology and the Religion of Israel, 1968, pp.*76, 77

Added to their other degrading practices was that of child sacrifice.
According to Merrill F.*Unger:
“Excavations in Palestine have uncovered piles of ashes and remains of infant skeletons in cemeteries around heathen altars, pointing to the widespread practice of this cruel abomination.” (Archaeology and the Old Testament, 1964, p.*279)

I think it is anti-pagan propaganda. In a society where most children die, it makes no sense to sacrifice them. Everybody would of course always try their best to keep them alive. All ritual centers where childrens corpses have been found there's no evidence they weren't dead already when brought there.

“Canaanites worshipped, by immoral indulgence, as a religious rite, in the presence of their gods; and then, by murdering their first-born children, as a sacrifice to these same gods. It seems that, in large measure, the land of Canaan had become a sort of Sodom and Gomorrah on a national scale. .*.*. Did a civilization of such abominable filth and brutality have any right longer to exist? .*.*. Archaeologists who dig in the ruins of Canaanite cities wonder that God did not destroy them sooner than he did.”—Vol.*1, p.*739. (Halley’s Bible Handbook (1964, p.*161)

It's typical in propaganda to make out an openent as immoral. That is especially true if the goal is just to raid them and steal their stuff, without any good justification. It's more likely that the Jews made all this shit up in order to justify thievery.

These are the kinds of strong families you find in our ranks:
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/family/couples-parents/
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/family/

Lol. Any children who manage to escape that hellish cult invariably hates it. It just acts to break apart and destroy families. Your claims are patently absurd.

It is a pity that I don't have the time to deal with all these issues. I have a business to run.
But I am fully capable of debunking all of them.
That being the case, my responses have to come few and far apart.
Try not to hold people is such contempt just because they choose to believe something that you reject.

Maybe take a stab at this, where you left off/choked

 

[blastula]

Wilson, you're right about the slaves. At last, you scored a point.

 

[Juma]

Typical JW nonsense. You can't just use common sense from a modern world. If you want to understand Mediterrenean iron age references you've got to rest it on academic works from people who have done this kind of anthropological work. We know enough about the ancient Levant to make educated guesses about what is meant by this.

Those passages refer to the fact that Christianity was initially apocalyptical. They thought Armageddon was going to happen in their generation. So there was no point amassing worldly possessions. If you did you were probably not a Christian and therefore suspect.

Might also have something to do with that early Christians were predominantly slaves. One can see how a religion that holds up owning nothing is a virtue might appeal to people who literally owns nothing. They don't even own their own persons.

This is the reason why Charles Taze Russel's work is so stupid. He's making no effort other than just hoping what he think they probably meant. Backed up by no research other than just the text itself. It's the Dunning-Kruger paradox. He didn't have the education to tell him that his "research" was a waste of time. But the world has moved on. You should know better. You have access to information Russel didn't. You have access to the Internet!

Here it is - plain as day.
“. . .Whoever does not carry his torture stake and come after me cannot be my disciple. 28 For example, who of you wanting to build a tower does not first sit down and calculate the expense to see if he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, he might lay its foundation but not be able to finish it, and all the onlookers would start to ridicule him, 30 saying: ‘This man started to build but was not able to finish.’ 31 Or what king marching out against another king in war does not first sit down and take counsel whether he is able with 10,000 troops to stand up to the one who comes against him with 20,000? 32 If, in fact, he cannot do so, then while that one is yet far away, he sends out a body of ambassadors and sues for peace. 33 In the same way, you may be sure that not one of you who does not say good-bye to all his belongings can be my disciple. 34 “Salt, to be sure, is fine. But if the salt loses its strength, with what will it be seasoned? 35 It is not suitable for soil or for manure. People throw it away. Let the one who has ears to listen, listen.”” (Luke 14:27-35)

First-century Christians did not believe that Armageddon would come in their day.
They have the words of Jesus to that effect:
Read Matthew 25:13-33.
And then there's this:
“. . .But the one who has endured to the end will be saved. 14 And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:13, 14)

The preaching of the Gospel is to be spread throughout the entire earth BEFORE the end comes.
Let's see the evidence that first-century Christians were predominantly slaves.
First-century Christians would come from here:
“. . .“Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.” (Matthew 10:11-14)

In agricultural communities, most slaves did not work indoors, hence would not be in a position to answer the knocking.
Slaves would be effectively prohibited from wasting the master's time by listening to preachers at the door.

Try again.

LOL. Fuck. I never grow accustumed to your stupidity...

How do you assume someone will "endure to the end" if it wont occur in their lifetime? You must be severly brainwashed to not take "endure" to be a hint that they actually will be alive when it happens...

why would anyone believe that mattew 10:11-14 says anything about in which social groups christianity had most followers?
It is just a text describing jesus telling the apostels how they shoul behave should be selling in the message.
It says absolutely nothing about what actually happened.