How did human language originate?

[fromderinside]

This suggests a lack of an ability to innovate. A lack of the human language capacity.

Jump right to language do we? How about more complex social structure from the git go 200K years ago, throwing weapons, more physical agility, etc. etc. etc.

 

[untermensche]

This suggests a lack of an ability to innovate. A lack of the human language capacity.

Jump right to language do we? How about more complex social structure from the git go 200K years ago, throwing weapons, more physical agility, etc. etc. etc.

There is nothing an animal can do to acquire the language capacity.

It is not some extension of a communication system using grunts and growls.

It is a hierarchical system that allows for infinite comprehension and expression.

An entirely different kind of system than exists in every other living primate.

Not just different in quantity. Different in kind.

 

[fromderinside]

So finding one can make and use color doesn't get used by a curious animal that has begun to track stars, even begin even consider mortality, having mastered long sequences of operations required to make hunting, building, skinning tools, begin to find ways to use other than hands and gestures to explain all the above. RU kidding me, animals capable of all the above can't manage to evolve language capacity over the period of these accomplishments? It must of been the mussels. Be remineded these capabilities evolved over a several million year period across a variety of environments. No watch maker need apply.

 

[untermensche]

So finding one can make and use color doesn't get used by a curious animal that has begun to track stars, even begin even consider mortality, having mastered long sequences of operations required to make hunting, building, skinning tools, begin to find ways to use other than hands and gestures to explain all the above. RU kidding me, animals capable of all the above can't manage to evolve language capacity over the period of these accomplishments? It must of been the mussels. Be remineded these capabilities evolved over a several million year period across a variety of environments. No watch maker need apply.

You can't will yourself to have a system of infinite comprehension and expression.

You can't slowly walk yourself towards such a system.

No matter how many steps you take it will not be infinite.

It either arises complete, as a rearrangement of existing complexity, or it does not exist.

 

[DrZoidberg]

You can't will yourself to have a system of infinite comprehension and expression.

You can't slowly walk yourself towards such a system.

No matter how many steps you take it will not be infinite.

It either arises complete, as a rearrangement of existing complexity, or it does not exist.

I suggest reading a book on the theory of evolution. We did "slowly walk" towards such a system. Because that's how evolution always works. It's one of the most fundamental aspects of ToE.

If we can't slowly walk towards such a system that much mean that humans aren't capable of complex language either. But we are. So we did.

I would further argue that humans aren't capable of infinite language either. Everything we say has to be a metaphor for something meaningful for the biological processes of primates. Or we just won't get it. This is given as a reason why humans don't seem to be able to intuitively understand quantum theory.

 

[untermensche]

You can't will yourself to have a system of infinite comprehension and expression.

You can't slowly walk yourself towards such a system.

No matter how many steps you take it will not be infinite.

It either arises complete, as a rearrangement of existing complexity, or it does not exist.

I suggest reading a book on the theory of evolution. We did "slowly walk" towards such a system. Because that's how evolution always works. It's one of the most fundamental aspects of ToE.

If we can't slowly walk towards such a system that much mean that humans aren't capable of complex language either. But we are. So we did.

I would further argue that humans aren't capable of infinite language either. Everything we say has to be a metaphor for something meaningful for the biological processes of primates. Or we just won't get it. This is given as a reason why humans don't seem to be able to intuitively understand quantum theory.

I suggest you update your understanding of The Theory of Evolution beyond 1972.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I suggest reading a book on the theory of evolution. We did "slowly walk" towards such a system. Because that's how evolution always works. It's one of the most fundamental aspects of ToE.

If we can't slowly walk towards such a system that much mean that humans aren't capable of complex language either. But we are. So we did.

I would further argue that humans aren't capable of infinite language either. Everything we say has to be a metaphor for something meaningful for the biological processes of primates. Or we just won't get it. This is given as a reason why humans don't seem to be able to intuitively understand quantum theory.

I suggest you update your understanding of The Theory of Evolution beyond 1972.

ha ha ha

 

[fromderinside]

So finding one can make and use color doesn't get used by a curious animal that has begun to track stars, even begin even consider mortality, having mastered long sequences of operations required to make hunting, building, skinning tools, begin to find ways to use other than hands and gestures to explain all the above. RU kidding me, animals capable of all the above can't manage to evolve language capacity over the period of these accomplishments? It must of been the mussels. Be remineded these capabilities evolved over a several million year period across a variety of environments. No watch maker need apply.

You can't will yourself to have a system of infinite comprehension and expression.

You can't slowly walk yourself towards such a system.

No matter how many steps you take it will not be infinite.

It either arises complete, as a rearrangement of existing complexity, or it does not exist.

Yeah, I know. Instead we have this happy process called evolution. As for infinite, its relative. Your infinite is my large. Large is being done all the time.

 

[DrZoidberg]

BTW, we haven't mentioned the simplest explanation to the neanderthal demise. The one where humans and neanderthals cheerfully got along, talked, traded, intermarried and interbred. Over time the sheer numbers of humans would dilute the neanderthal DNA. What this theory has going for it is that it's supported by all the evidence. We don't have to figure out how we managed to wipe out a species comparable to us in language, inginuity, creativity and technology, while also being physically stronger.

Interbreeding would certainly have been beneficial for both parties considering that both neanderthals and humans had developed separate sets of immunities to diseases. By interbreeding their off-spring would have superior immune systems to either of the parent species.

Anyhoo... food for thought.

 

[untermensche]

You can't will yourself to have a system of infinite comprehension and expression.

You can't slowly walk yourself towards such a system.

No matter how many steps you take it will not be infinite.

It either arises complete, as a rearrangement of existing complexity, or it does not exist.

Yeah, I know. Instead we have this happy process called evolution. As for infinite, its relative. Your infinite is my large. Large is being done all the time.

Yes Evolution.

Evolution IS saltation.

Not neat and smooth and perfect like some god is designing things.

It is random and chaotic with huge jumps and bursts now and then.

 

[untermensche]

I suggest you update your understanding of The Theory of Evolution beyond 1972.

ha ha ha

Have you ever heard of Punctuated Equilibrium?

You speak as if you never have.

 

[DrZoidberg]

ha ha ha

Have you ever heard of Punctuated Equilibrium?

You speak as if you never have.

Mmmm. I suspected that you'd misunderstood how punctuated equilibrium works. I'll explain why you are wrong.

In evolution things only evolve step by step. New mutations are only retained if they

1) give an improvement for fitness
2) help them get laid
2) or don't get in the way

They always build upon what was before. It never works in big leaps. But evolution doesn't exist in a vacuum. The environment often changes. Some times dramatically. Now and again the Earth has gone though major calamities wiping out almost all life.

Right after a calamity there is a window of opportunity for whatever creature that survives and is best adapted to the new world. This creature will grow explosively and get very little resistance. Because there's no resistance mutations rarely cause a problem for the creature. So after calamities weirdness increases just as explosively. Eventually all the green fields will get filled up, and the course of evolution will revert back to how it regularly does stuff. Each creature will again find their stable ecological niche. But now we'll have new creatures. Most of which will be variants of that survivor from the last calamity.

The rapid evolution during the "punctuated equilibria" phases mostly just increase weirdness. They rarely introduce anything useful. It's not until the end of the phase were unfit members are pruned off that we get to see any improvement. But even during these phases it's still the same fundamental evolutionary mechanic. It still builds upon what was before and if it doesn't introduce a stable and slight benefit it will get weeded out. There's never any massive jumps. It's all gradual change over time. Always.

Sometimes researchers might talk about jumps. But it's just a way to underline how the change is greater during punctuated equilibria than usual. The underlying mechanic is the same though. No jumps.

 

[untermensche]

You have missed the last 40 years of genetic research.

Mutations to regulator genes can cause large changes.

Not all genes and not all mutations are the same thing.

There is nothing smooth about evolutionary change.

What is smooth are the long periods where species resist change.

 

[DrZoidberg]

You have missed the last 40 years of genetic research.

Mutations to regulator genes can cause large changes.

Not all genes and not all mutations are the same thing.

There is nothing smooth about evolutionary change.

What is smooth are the long periods where species resist change.

Didn't say it was smooth. I think you're projecting some imagined "oponent" on to me.

 

[fromderinside]

Mutations to regulator genes can cause large changes.

Not all genes and not all mutations are the same thing.

There is nothing smooth about evolutionary change.

What is smooth are the long periods where species resist change.

yes, so?

OK, so?

Really Sherlock, so?

Species never resist genetic change. Sometimes changes are just inconsequential given conditions. Point here is mutations occur at regular rates in individuals IAC with physical law. How we interpret consequences is in question.

 

[untermensche]

You have missed the last 40 years of genetic research.

Mutations to regulator genes can cause large changes.

Not all genes and not all mutations are the same thing.

There is nothing smooth about evolutionary change.

What is smooth are the long periods where species resist change.

Didn't say it was smooth. I think you're projecting some imagined "oponent" on to me.

Fine, we are in agreement.

Evolutionary change can be large and chaotic.

A brain without the language capacity can transform with one mutation into a brain with a language capacity.

 

[untermensche]

Mutations to regulator genes can cause large changes.

Not all genes and not all mutations are the same thing.

There is nothing smooth about evolutionary change.

What is smooth are the long periods where species resist change.

yes, so?

OK, so?

Really Sherlock, so?

Species never resist genetic change. Sometimes changes are just inconsequential given conditions. Point here is mutations occur at regular rates in individuals IAC with physical law. How we interpret consequences is in question.

You can't make anything out of regular rates of mutations.

The only mutations that matter are those which can be passed on and cause some change that effects survival abilities.

Most mutation either do not effect survival or effect it negatively. These are all lost.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Fine, we are in agreement.

Evolutionary change can be large and chaotic.

A brain without the language capacity can transform with one mutation into a brain with a language capacity.

No. That's impossible. That's not how evolution works.

 

[untermensche]

Fine, we are in agreement.

Evolutionary change can be large and chaotic.

A brain without the language capacity can transform with one mutation into a brain with a language capacity.

No. That's impossible. That's not how evolution works.

Evolution works by mutations.

How exactly do you prove a single mutation could not have caused a brain without the language capacity to have the language capacity?

Do you know what Chomsky thinks the language capacity first existed as?

 

[DrZoidberg]

No. That's impossible. That's not how evolution works.

Evolution works by mutations.

How exactly do you prove a single mutation could not have caused a brain without the language capacity to have the language capacity?

Do you know what Chomsky thinks the language capacity first existed as?

Still has to have happened incrementally.

You're the one making the extraordinary claim. I'd say the burden of proof is on your side