God and time and space

[BH]

I've heard it argued by apologists on youtube, ect that God exists outside of time and space. How can that be? If he has substance then he has space and is inside a space and if he thinks or does anything he is acting within time.

 

[none]

I think it's a legitimate answer to those that believe it because it is an answer.
for the rest of us, it just don't make sense.

 

[Gila Guerilla]

I think that you will find that theists rationalise it by saying that their god is omnipresent. Specifically, "god" is both outside of time and space, as well as within them. It is not necessary for the theist to understand how that can be, merely to accept it.

The problem I can see is: 'What about "before" the so-called creation?'; 'What about "before" time and space?' In particular, how could any "being" take action which requires time, if there is no time? In our experience it cannot be. I guess that a theist may wave a dismissive metaphorical hand and say: ' "God" works in mysterious ways'.

Yeah, and my cocks' a kipper.

 

[Bronzeage]

I've heard it argued by apologists on youtube, ect that God exists outside of time and space. How can that be? If he has substance then he has space and is inside a space and if he thinks or does anything he is acting within time.

Who said he had substance?

If there is such a thing as a God which exists outside time and space, then such an entity exists at all points in time and space simultaneously. Given this condition, why would we expect a human brain to fully comprehend it? Could the human see anything but a paradox, since such thing could not exist in his world?

 

[none]

I've heard it argued by apologists on youtube, ect that God exists outside of time and space. How can that be? If he has substance then he has space and is inside a space and if he thinks or does anything he is acting within time.

Who said he had substance?

If there is such a thing as a God which exists outside time and space, then such and entity exists at all points in time and space simultaneously.
...

sorry but I am not connecting the dots on this.
how do you arrive at this conclusion/condition?

 

[Bronzeage]

I've heard it argued by apologists on youtube, ect that God exists outside of time and space. How can that be? If he has substance then he has space and is inside a space and if he thinks or does anything he is acting within time.

Who said he had substance?

If there is such a thing as a God which exists outside time and space, then such and entity exists at all points in time and space simultaneously.
...

sorry but I am not connecting the dots on this.
how do you arrive at this conclusion/condition?

It seems quite straightforward, unless you want to propose a God who can travel through space and time in zero time. Being everywhere all the time would be much more convenient.

However, the proposal, "If I can't imagine it, it does not exist," is silly on the face of it.

 

[none]

I've heard it argued by apologists on youtube, ect that God exists outside of time and space. How can that be? If he has substance then he has space and is inside a space and if he thinks or does anything he is acting within time.

Who said he had substance?

If there is such a thing as a God which exists outside time and space, then such and entity exists at all points in time and space simultaneously.
...

sorry but I am not connecting the dots on this.
how do you arrive at this conclusion/condition?

It seems quite straightforward, unless you want to propose a God who can travel through space and time in zero time. Being everywhere all the time would be much more convenient.

However, the proposal, "If I can't imagine it, it does not exist," is silly on the face of it.

it isn't straightforward, just like your reply/"clarification" isn't straightforward.
I'd still like an explanation why something would have to exist all points in time and space simultaneously if it existed outside space and time.

 

[Bronzeage]

I've heard it argued by apologists on youtube, ect that God exists outside of time and space. How can that be? If he has substance then he has space and is inside a space and if he thinks or does anything he is acting within time.

Who said he had substance?

If there is such a thing as a God which exists outside time and space, then such and entity exists at all points in time and space simultaneously.
...

sorry but I am not connecting the dots on this.
how do you arrive at this conclusion/condition?

It seems quite straightforward, unless you want to propose a God who can travel through space and time in zero time. Being everywhere all the time would be much more convenient.

However, the proposal, "If I can't imagine it, it does not exist," is silly on the face of it.

it isn't straightforward, just like your reply/"clarification" isn't straightforward.
I'd still like an explanation why something would have to exist all points in time and space simultaneously if it existed outside space and time.

Sorry, that's all there is. There is a limit to human comprehension. If you can't grasp existence in all places at all time, it is beyond you. It helps if you remember that time and space are human constructions to help us see order in the universe.
'

 

[none]

Sorry, that's all there is.

yeah I get it, you make bold assertions which appear to be baseless and untennable.

There is a limit to human comprehension.

if you can't explain it then you must not be able to understand it.

If you can't grasp existence in all places at all time, it is beyond you.

somehow in your world this means something.
possibly ad hominem is all you got to explain your worthless opinion.

It helps if you remember that time and space are human constructions to help us see order in the universe.
'

I'd still like an explanation why something would have to exist all points in time and space simultaneously if it existed outside space and time.
somehow even though I'd like an explanation you probably can't give one.

 

[Malintent]

I think it's a legitimate answer to those that believe it because it is an answer.
for the rest of us, it just don't make sense.

It is not an "answer"... as it does not add any information. If anything, it removes information. It is, however, a "response". But, "BUUURRRRPP!", is also "response".

 

[Malintent]

Bronzage, are you saying something like, "God exists in a different dimention than the first 4 dimentions we ourselves exist within, so you can say that this God can be "everywhere at all times", since all of our 4 dimentions can be described as a single point within a "higher" dimention?

Or are you saying that this God is "outside our Universe", yet somehow inside the universe and everywhere at all times?

The former is logically valid, the latter is not.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Being present within space and time are the very properties of existence. Saying god lies outside of time and space, or resides there as well as in our universe is mere speculation, nothing more. It may be structured to sound like it's an answer to a question, but it is not. If someone were attempting to use that as a defense for god or his properties, I would press the issue and continue to ask questions regarding what this supposed answer they have presented means until they concede that it actually means nothing, or they successfully explain their position. My TARDIS touches every point in time and space simultaneously. This is how it works, it merely withdraws a door from one spot, materializes it in another and pop, I have arrived at my destination! If pressed, I could not tell you how the TARDIS actually works, and I doubt they can explain how god does this either. Until they do, their god is no more real than my TARDIS.

 

[Bronzeage]

Bronzage, are you saying something like, "God exists in a different dimention than the first 4 dimentions we ourselves exist within, so you can say that this God can be "everywhere at all times", since all of our 4 dimentions can be described as a single point within a "higher" dimention?

Or are you saying that this God is "outside our Universe", yet somehow inside the universe and everywhere at all times?

The former is logically valid, the latter is not.

It's illogical if one wants to put the constraints of the human universe on a God. Humans are constrained by space and time. We had to invent the concept of space and time, just to reconcile why it is so difficult to get anything done.

Imagine an entity which can effect an action at any place in the universe, at any point in the past or the future. This point in time and place is from out point of view, of course. Such an entity has no constraint from time or space.

Imagine you are a time traveler. It would be a very useful talent. Suppose you want to travel to the year 1814. How much time would this take? Suppose travel backwards in time was possible, but it took a year to go back a year, just as it now takes a year to move forward a year. That is not very practical, as one would age(assuming a time traveler aged) coming and going. Let's say time travel is instantaneous and the traveler perceives no passage of time until he reaches the new date. He can be at any point in time, but does not age as he moves from one to the other. This would be interesting, but if our time traveler stayed in the same spot, and only changed time, there are definite limits. We'll add the ability to move to any time and any point in space at will, and we have a nifty travel package.

The only remaining limit is human consciousness. Our time traveler is only conscious of the time and place he/she happens to be at the moment. To break out of the human skull, out time traveler must be conscious of all points in time, and all points in space. This is the necessary condition to be unconstrained by space and time.

 

[Random Person]

It seems logically consistent to me. That doesn't make it true but it's not hard to understand.

If a bing created space, time and matter then it would exist outside of these three things.

 

[Atheos]

But to suggest that the bing created anything is to appeal to time. The being would have to exist without the created thing, then the being would have to do something that resulted in the existence of the created thing. This takes time. Without time god wouldn't have enough time to create time.

 

[Bronzeage]

But to suggest that the bing created anything is to appeal to time. The being would have to exist without the created thing, then the being would have to do something that resulted in the existence of the created thing. This takes time. Without time god wouldn't have enough time to create time.

Time was our idea. We are the ones who must take time to move from one spot to the next, and while we can go back to our original spot, we can't go back to the original time. That's our problem, not the problem of a being who is not constrained by space and time, and does not have to play by our rules.

 

[Malintent]

It seems logically consistent to me. That doesn't make it true but it's not hard to understand.

If a bing created space, time and matter then it would exist outside of these three things.

When, pray tell, did this entity have the time to create time? I didn't know turtles wore watches.

 

[Kharakov]

It seems quite straightforward, unless you want to propose a God who can travel through space and time in zero time. Being everywhere all the time would be much more convenient.

Space doesn't have to travel in order to be everywhere at once. It is something too- it has properties, such as electromagnetic permittivity, that indicate that it is not "nothing".

 

[Bronzeage]

It seems quite straightforward, unless you want to propose a God who can travel through space and time in zero time. Being everywhere all the time would be much more convenient.

Space doesn't have to travel in order to be everywhere at once. It is something too- it has properties, such as electromagnetic permittivity, that indicate that it is not "nothing".

I'm still trying to work out how something 93 million miles away can give me sunburn.

 

[Kharakov]

It seems quite straightforward, unless you want to propose a God who can travel through space and time in zero time. Being everywhere all the time would be much more convenient.

Space doesn't have to travel in order to be everywhere at once. It is something too- it has properties, such as electromagnetic permittivity, that indicate that it is not "nothing".

I'm still trying to work out how something 93 million miles away can give me sunburn.

And cause sammiches to form. Don't forget that sunlight shining on the Earth's surface caused various awesome types of sammiches to form.