Great news! Over 20 dead in Orlando Night Club!

[Tristan Scott]

To Underseer with love...

Yes, the double standard is mind boggling. When Roof committed these murders there was a campaign to get rid off the Rebel Flag everywhere (including the General Lee). So where are those same people calling for removal of Islamic symbols?

I suspect that anyone capable of even a modicum of critical thought could see the difference.

The confederate flag represented a group of five and a half million people who went to war in order to continue enslaving people. Islamic symbols represent a religion of 1.2 billion people of 99.9% of which live in peace.

 

[fast]

I really liked that show, and I liked the show when I knew nothing about that flag.

 

[jonatha]

I really liked that show, and I liked the show when I knew nothing about that flag.

There was a flag????

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

CNN reports McCain saying, "I 'misspoke' in blaming obama for Orlando."

Misspoke. Yeah... that seems to be a mantra from the right-wing. Misspoke?

I misspoke. I did not mean to imply that the President was personally responsible. I was referring to President Obama’s national security decisions, not the President himself. As I have said, President Obama’s decision to completely withdraw U.S. troops from Iraq in 2011 led to the rise of ISIL. I and others have long warned that the failure of the President’s policy to deny ISIL safe haven would allow the terrorist organization to inspire, plan, direct or conduct attacks on the United States and Europe as they have done in Paris, Brussels, San Bernardino and now Orlando.

So like when I said Obama was directly responsible, I didn't mean Obama was responsible. Oh fuck, I'm losing this November aren't I?

Yup... when you have to rephrase yourself in a state where your incumbency typically means easy re-election, you are screwed.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, the double standard is mind boggling. When Roof committed these murders there was a campaign to get rid off the Rebel Flag everywhere (including the General Lee). So where are those same people calling for removal of Islamic symbols?

I suspect that anyone capable of even a modicum of critical thought could see the difference.

Modicum... such a large word for such a tiny grasp of reality some people just don't seem to have.

 

[blastula]

To Underseer with love...

Yes, the double standard is mind boggling. When Roof committed these murders there was a campaign to get rid off the Rebel Flag everywhere (including the General Lee). So where are those same people calling for removal of Islamic symbols?

Poe.

 

[fast]

I really liked that show, and I liked the show when I knew nothing about that flag.

View attachment 7211

There was a flag????

Well, now that you put it like that ...

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So if its inferior for hunting, what's it good for?

I know practically nothing about guns, but I assume it's good for mass killings like this since it seems to be the weapon of choice. It's obviously easy to purchase, I believe it can carry a large amount of ammo. It's probably lightweight and easy to handle.

Most killings are with handguns.

Yes, and most gun killings are suicide. I don't know what the answer is, but I do know that if someone who has anger issues or is on somebody's watch list goes and buys an AR-15 with a shitload of ammo, it would be nice if some alarms would go off somewhere.

Oops, I was talking about murders. Suicides aren't so distributed towards handguns because there's no concealability issue.

As for this case:

1) There was no AR-15.
2) He tried to buy a bunch of ammo but was turned down.
3) Multiple investigations had cleared him.

If anything what this case suggests is we should be looking at whether he was being cleared because they didn't want to offend Muslims.

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The Hummer is inferior for fuel efficiency, so what's it good for?
The Smart Car is inferior for driver safety on the highways, so what's it good for?
The Mercedes G series has an ugly and uncomfortable interior, so what's it good for?
The Jeep Wrangler has a horribly bumpy ride on pavement, so what' sit good for?

All of those vehicles still get people from A to Z.

What does an AR-15 do if it is no good for hunting.

Sent from my SM-G920T1 using Tapatalk

I said "inferior", not "useless".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Most killings are with handguns.

Please present a case of mass murder similar to Sandy Hook or Orlando that was carried out with a hand gun

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data

Select the "weapon categories" table as I can't link directly to it.

Note how "semiautomatic handgun" is all over the table.

 

[RavenSky]

I said "inferior", not "useless".

If it is "inferior" for hunting, what is it good for?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

All of those vehicles still get people from A to Z.

What does an AR-15 do if it is no good for hunting.

What does an AR-15 do if it is good for hunting? Why is hunting any kind of exception or justification?

"Hello, I'd like to buy some dynamite."
"That requires a special permit."
"It's alright, I'm just going to blow up some animals."
"Okay, here you go sir."

Until 9/11 it was possible in some places to simply buy dynamite with minimal requirements. It wasn't unusual for farmers to blast out stumps.

 

[RavenSky]

Please present a case of mass murder similar to Sandy Hook or Orlando that was carried out with a hand gun

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data

Select the "weapon categories" table as I can't link directly to it.

Note how "semiautomatic handgun" is all over the table.

So your argument is that "semiautomatic handguns" should be banned too?

You said "handguns" - I assumed you meant single-shot or even a revolver

My issue is with the "semiautomatic" part, especially when coupled with the high-capacity magazines.

Show me a case of mass murder similar to Sandy Hook or Orlando that was carried out with a single shot pistol.

Furthermore:

A bullet with more energy can do more damage. Its total kinetic energy is equal to the one-half the mass of the bullet times its velocity squared. The bullet from a handgun is—as absurd as it may sound—slow compared to that from an AR-15. It can be stopped by the thick bone of the upper leg. It might pass through the body, only to become lodged in skin, which is surprisingly elastic.

The bullet from an AR-15 does an entirely different kind of violence to the human body. It’s relatively small, but it leaves the muzzle at three times the speed of a handgun bullet. It has so much energy that it can disintegrate three inches of leg bone. “It would just turn it to dust,” says Donald Jenkins, a trauma surgeon at University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio. If it hits the liver, “the liver looks like a jello mold that’s been dropped on the floor.” And the exit wound can be a nasty, jagged hole the size of an orange.

I will grant that the gun terminology is all over the place (and I was sloppy with mine). It really doesn't matter if the weapon is technically a "rifle" or a "pistol". What does matter is the "semiautomatic" part coupled with high-capacity magazines.

That said, it is still the AR-15 that is the gun of choice for these mass murderers, yet no one can give me any redeeming feature about this specific gun

Then, multiply the damage from a single bullet by the ease of shooting an AR-15, which doesn’t kick. “The gun barely moves. You can sit there boom boom boom and reel off shots as fast as you can move your finger,” says Ernest Moore, a trauma surgeon at Denver Health and editor of the Journal of Trauma and Acute Surgery, which just published an issue dedicated to gun violence.

Handguns kill plenty of people too, of course, and they’re responsible for the vast majority of America’s gun deaths. But a single bullet from a handgun is not likely to be as deadly as one from an AR-15.

http://www.wired.com/2016/06/ar-15-can-human-body/

So we can argue about semiautomatic pistols and/or high-capacity magazines later. For now, how about we just ban these AR-15's.

And yes... I said the dreaded "b" word. These things are designed for the sole purpose of making the maximum number of human beings fully dead (not wounded) with the minimum amount of effort on the part of the shooter.

No one (outside of the military) needs this kind of gun.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

That said, it is still the AR-15 that is the gun of choice for these mass murderers, yet no one can give me any redeeming feature about this specific gun

As I understand it, it's very useful when conducting drug deals in order to intimidate the other party so that they don't shoot you so as to keep their drugs and take your money. It's even more useful when that other party is only lightly armed and you can shoot them to take their drugs and keep your money.

 

[Tristan Scott]

Arguing the merits of weapons gets us no where. The weapon used in Orlando was a weapon designed for close combat, according to it's manufacturer. Whether a gun is full auto or semi-auto doesn't seem to make any difference, semi auto is probably a more effective use of the weapon in these situations.

Having said that, I think Loren is right (If I understand his position.). It's not really the guns. Should they be regulated? Sure, it may do some good, but it's not going to fix this.

I always come back to Bowling for Columbine, and the question posed as to why we have so many people shooting each other in this country compared to other countries where weapons are allowed. I think Marilyn Manson nailed it. It's because there is so much fear in this country. Fear sells, and is promoted every place you look.

 

[Sea of red]

I like how the Christians are pretending like they give a shit about the gay community now. Yeah, you can't ask for all those laws to segregate gays, for the 'right' to discriminate against them, try to amend the constitution to ban gay marriage, call them pedophiles, and all the other WONDERFUL things they've done over the past twenty years, and think there are not effects for that kind of rhetoric. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Words have effects on the world. I'm not advocating we ban free-speech like some wingers will no doubt cry, but people should have responsibility distributed their way for what they advocate.

This fucking song and dance that 'rhetoric can't be dangerous' blame the people is bullshit. I blame Islam for the murder and blame Christianity for the atmosphere.

 

[repoman]

When will the killer calling 911 be released?

 

[Sea of red]

I think another element to this is the fact that the media plays right into the hands of terrorism like this - of which I include shootings with white people under that banner. The more we give these cocksucker a postmortem platform for their political and religious opinions, the more they resort to these massacres as a way of getting their opinions heard.

 

[Sea of red]

When will the killer calling 911 be released?

SPOILER: allahu akbar, allahu akbar, allahu akbar, and allahu akbar.

 

[RavenSky]

I always come back to Bowling for Columbine, and the question posed as to why we have so many people shooting each other in this country compared to other countries where weapons are allowed. I think Marilyn Manson nailed it. It's because there is so much fear in this country. Fear sells, and is promoted every place you look.

Maybe, but I think it is a lack of training, along with economic disparity, lack of medical (mental health) accessibility, etc. Someone up-thread mentioned Switzerland.

Switzerland has a small, very homogenous population, yet it ranks in the top 20 GDP. The country has universal health care (via private insurance at almost 1/2 the cost of the USA), one of the lowest rates of income inequality, and are considering a universal basic income. Switzerland also has mandatory military service, during which the men receive extensive gun training, and almost everyone is a member of a gun club. Switzerland, btw, also has "laws regulating the sale, ownership and licensing of private guns, which includes a ban on carrying concealed weapons" - common sense laws that the NRA in this country fights against.

Ironically, it is a history of fear (of invasion) that has helped lead Switzerland to the sane gun-owning country they are now

 

[fast]

I like how the Christians are pretending like they give a shit about the gay community now.

That is progress, isn't it?

 

[Bomb#20]

The vast majority of such guns never kill anyone. That can hardly be their sole function!

That's like saying that the vast majority of fire extinguishers never put out a fire, so extinguishing fires isn't what they're made for. They're designed to do a certain task and the fact that most of them are never used for that task doesn't mean that's their function.

Well, yes and no. On the one hand, most guns that are used at all are used for a very practical and popular alternate use, rather than for killing anyone. In contrast, most fire extinguishers never put out a fire only because most are never used at all. So what Loren said isn't really very much at all like saying extinguishing fires isn't what fire extinguishers are made for, unless you're prepared to show that there are a lot of cases of people using fire extinguishers for the purpose of threatening to put out a fire.

On the other hand, there don't seem to be a whole lot of situations where you really need to threaten a mass killing and merely threatening to kill one or two people wouldn't serve equally well. So if an assault rifle's true primary function is to threaten to kill people then it's kind of over-designed. This suggests that Loren's argument that mass killings aren't their sole function would really be a much better argument if he made it about handguns instead of assault rifles. Moreover, even if it should turn out that the vast majority of such guns that are used at all are in fact used to threaten a mass killing rather than to carry one out, that's not really all that strong a justification for their being legal. There are all sorts of situations where threatening a killing is a virtuous and socially useful activity that society needs to uphold the law-abiding citizen's right to engage in. Threatening a mass killing, not so much.