Chronicles in Socialism - Venezuela Meltdown, an Underappreciated Opportunity for Gawking

[coloradoatheist]

You are the one saying that things are so bad in the US. But are the poor leaving in droves out of the US to go somewhere else?

Why wouldn't the US help all those indigenous Venezuelans suffering under brutal racist treatment by the Venezuelan government?

What was wrong with them?

Why did the US only support the people exploiting and abusing them? (once again....oil)

The issue for the US to help most of the people in the country they would need to set up an entire government that would set up and run capitalism. Does the US have that power?

 

[untermensche]

Why wouldn't the US help all those indigenous Venezuelans suffering under brutal racist treatment by the Venezuelan government?

What was wrong with them?

Why did the US only support the people exploiting and abusing them? (once again....oil)

The issue for the US to help most of the people in the country they would need to set up an entire government that would set up and run capitalism. Does the US have that power?

What would the US use as a model?

Where was this capitalist nation?

But again, why didn't the US open it's doors to these poor indigenous people being abused by the Venezuelan government?

What was wrong with them?

 

[maxparrish]

http://www.reuters.com/article/venezuela-bond-idUSL2N165186

Venezuela’s international reserves fell to a 17-year low of $13.5 billion on Friday after the government paid in full its $1.5 billion Global 2016 bond , according to central bank data. The $1.543 billion decline in reserves matched the interest and principal paid on the 2016 bond.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ss-gold-vaults-for-clues-of-venezuela-default
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/3/bea8fcbc-dbbc-11e5-a72f-1e7744c66818.html#axzz41Jhd77Lk

Siobhan Morden of Nomura estimates that, after the Swiss shipment and taking account of recent price rises, Venezuela is left with gold worth about $11.3bn. According to the central bank it also has foreign exchange reserves of $14.6bn (after a withdrawal of $472m last week, also seen by analysts as preparation for Friday’s payment).

But Friday’s is not the only payment coming up. Taken together, the government, state-owned oil company PdVSA, and its affiliates, face repayments this year of $10.5bn. The crunch months are October and November (see chart).

On top of that, Ms Morden says, Venezuela must find $35bn to pay for imports and $12bn to cover capital outflows, out of oil revenues of just $20bn.

 

[untermensche]

We've seen it before.

Mechanisms of economic warfare in Venezuela are similar to those used against Allende, says Correa

http://www.andes.info.ec/en/news/me...r-those-used-against-allende-says-correa.html

In 1970, the CIA’s deputy director of plans wrote in a secret memo: "It is firm and continuing policy that Allende be overthrown by a coup. ... It is imperative that these actions be implemented clandestinely and securely so that the USG [the U.S. government] and American hand be well hidden." That same year President Nixon ordered the CIA to "make the economy scream" in Chile to "prevent Allende from coming to power or to unseat him."

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/9/10/40_years_after_chiles_9_11

 

[Loren Pechtel]

See my response to Loren.

Total bullshit.

Have you even once asked yourself why you care about Venezuela?

Why is it somehow more important than all the capitalist disasters in the Western hemisphere? Places like capitalist Haiti and capitalist Mexico.

I'll give you a hint.

Before Chavez the US was able to exert control over the flow of oil from Venezuela.

That was his big crime. He actually had the nerve to believe that Venezuelan oil belonged to the people of Venezuela and not American imperialists.

Now the American imperialists are up in arms, and their loyal puppy dogs are barking on command.

Your side made an issue of the supposed success so we are rebutting it.

 

[maxparrish]

Interesting articles one on those socialist success stories, "Cadivi":

http://caracaschronicles.com/2016/02/05/51255/

It’s strange to reflect that exchange controls have been in place for 13 years now. My older son (he’s 15) almost can’t believe there was a time when it didn’t exist. El cupo, (you know, the cut-rate dollar allotment the government allows each individual ) has been a family issue for years: the kids wanted video games — Cadivi. I wanted a kindle — Cadivi. My cell phone got stolen — Cadivi.

Negotiating over how to split my yearly allotment of foreign currency was just part of family life for us. Not an easy task. But very normal for my children, who have a hard time understanding that in other countries people don’t have limits ...

It is understandable: one of them was only two when the exchange control was put in place in in 2003, and the other one was born five years into the Cadivi era. For them, this is just how the world works.

...In 2004 Cadivi set an annual “cupo” for travelers and for online shopping, 3 thousand bucks each. I’m a university professor, travelling abroad isn’t the kind of leisure I can usually afford. For me, Cadivi always meant the cupo electrónico: a way of purchasing stuff at a cheaper price than in Caracas stores. I have a lot of family in the US, so I didn’t even pay for international delivery: anytime someone was traveling to Caracas, I bought what I needed and sent them my packages. My stuff afterwards arrived home safely in their suitcases.

In 2005, the cupo for online shopping was reduced to $2,500, but it still was plenty of money; I don’t think I ever spent the whole amount in one year. During those times we bought the first Wii that Baby Jesus brought my older son, and also in 2007 when I was pregnant, I got everything I needed for the new baby.

But in 2008 this changed. The government took the Cadivi electronic cupo down to $400 per year. It became harder to buy the electronics and toys the kids (and us) wanted. But, at that time, everybody contributed with their credit card allotments, their grandparents, my ex-husband, or maybe one of us had the chance to eventually travel abroad. Baby Jesus kept bringing nice presents every Christmas until 2014.

From 2015, the new exchange control rules provided that only credit cards issued by state-owned banks would have the privilege to be used for travelling or online shopping. I applied for a credit card in one of those banks, and never got an answer. So, kiss both the cupo electrónico and foreign travel goodbye.

As December neared I asked my little boy what he was asking for in his letter to Baby Jesus. And he wanted a Wii U. ...

But it was a present I just couldn’t afford. When I finally took my vacation, my first task was a toy-store tour. Toys were pricey, and scarce too. Finally, with the money I could spend, I bought a cute remote-control car and a spider-man skate board. That was to be his loot on Christmas morning.

My son wasn’t pleased when he found out he didn’t get what he asked for. He tried his new toys, but later, when I was making lunch, he came into the kitchen and said “we need to talk” followed by “tell me the truth”.

I knew exactly what would come next. His age of innocence was over.

Another youthful anti-Chavesta in the making! Excellllleeennt.

 

[untermensche]

When one considers present day economic conditions in Venezuela one must closely examine what the US did in Chile in the 1960's and early 70's.

In 1964, the CIA spent $3 million to prevent Allende from winning that year’s election. According to the agency, this money was used largely for anti-leftist propaganda, and was critical to the election of the PDC’s Eduardo Frei.

From 1965 onward, the CIA conducted continuing propaganda activities in Chile, purchasing advertisements in the mass media to turn public opinion against the political left.

...Two courses of action, dubbed Track I and Track II, were pursued simultaneously until Allende’s victory in October.

Track I was a political initiative that sought to re-elect Frei by corrupt, yet constitutional, means. Since Allende did not win an absolute majority of the popular vote, the constitution required that the Congress confirm the election in a runoff between the two leading candidates. Track I prescribed that the CIA and the U.S. embassy should ask Frei to persuade conservative congressmen to vote for the second-ranked Alessandri. Alessandri would then resign, enabling Frei to run against Allende in a new election. This convoluted plan had several possible points of failure, but it never got past the first stage, as the Congress approved Allende’s victory by a vote of 153 to 35 on October 24.

Track II considered the possibility of supporting a military coup to prevent the accession of Allende. Here, for the first time, the CIA report identifies a direct presidential order. On September 15, President Nixon “instructed the CIA to prevent Allende from coming to power or unseat him and authorized $10 million for this purpose.” He stipulated that the CIA should act without the knowledge of the State Department or the U.S. military. This procedure is consistent with the extremely sensitive and highly illicit nature of the operation.

Frei would not attempt to incite a coup, so in October the CIA took matters into its own hands, directly contacting members of the Chilean military and national police “to convince them to carry out a coup.”

The CIA’s testimony becomes shakier when it discusses the assassination of Chile’s top military commander, General Rene Schneider Chereau. Since Schneider was a firm advocate of upholding the Chilean constitution, the CIA and other coup plotters agreed that he had to be removed. The CIA maintains that the general was to be abducted, and they “have found no information” that the general was to be killed. As discussed earlier, this statement is technically accurate, but weak, as an assassination order would not be documented. The agency would have us believe that kidnapping the general was necessary to the success of a military coup, yet leaves us wondering what could be done with the general after a successful coup. In fact, the general was deliberately assassinated by coup conspirators, though it would be difficult to gather this from the CIA’s testimony.

President Nixon convened a National Security Council meeting on the morning of November 6. Attendees included the new Vice President, Gerald Ford, as well as Henry Kissinger, Secretary of State William Rogers, CIA Director Richard Helms, Gen. William Westmoreland and Gen. Alexander Haig. Convinced that Allende would “try to create a Socialist state,” the council considered whether it would be better to show overt hostility to the Allende regime, or to adopt a hostile posture less publicly. The possibility of seeking a modus vivendi with the Allende government was dismissed by all. Secretary of State Rogers opted for a hostile stance that was not publicized:

"Private business and the Latin American countries believe that we have done the right things up to now. If we have to be hostile, we want to do it right and bring him down. A stance of public hostility would give us trouble in Latin America. We can put an economic squeeze on him. He has requested a debt rescheduling soon – we can be tough. We can bring his downfall perhaps without being counterproductive."

Shortly after the coup, in which the presidential palace was stormed, and President Allende shot himself, according to the testimony of two doctors, Kissinger and Nixon shared their glee in the exchange on September 16, at the same time revealing that the U.S. did in fact support the coup:

K: The Chilean thing is getting consolidated and of course the newspapers are bleeding because a pro-Communist government has been overthrown.

P: Isn’t that something. Isn’t that something.

K: I mean instead of celebrating – in the Eisenhower period we would be heros.

P: Well we didn’t – as you know – our hand doesn’t show on this one though.

K: We didn’t do it. I mean we helped them. _____ created the conditions as great as possible (??)

P: That is right. And that is the way it is going to be played.

The U.S. waged economic warfare against Chile shortly after Allende took office, terminating financial support of the government. As Allende expanded social welfare programs and reduced unemployment, he nationalized industries that had been under foreign ownership, most notably the lucrative copper industry, which had been owned almost exclusively by U.S. companies. The Anaconda Copper Mining Co. (ACM) alone controlled two-thirds of the industry, and was known to bribe politicians into supporting their interests in keeping wages and working conditions low, while allowing the price of copper and rate of extraction to be determined by the U.S. This blatant exploitation was resented by all Chileans, including conservatives, so Allende had broad support when he introduced a constitutional amendment to nationalize the copper mines, and this was unanimously approved by a conservative majority congress on July 11, 1971, proclaimed the National Day of Dignity. U.S. companies demanded compensation for loss of ownership, but Allende presented a detailed financial accounting of fifty years of exploitation showing that the ACM, in fact, owed compensation to Chile for underpricing her material and human resources and manipulating her laws. The Nixon administration halted all foreign aid, exports, and credit to Chile, while U.S. copper companies blocked the sale of Chilean copper in Europe. Chile’s trade revenue was further crippled by a fall in the price of world copper (from $66/ton in 1970 to $48/ton in 1971), as predicted by Nixon. Economic warfare against Chile was supplemented by a CIA-funded “destabilization” plan to provoke strikes by trade organizations.

http://www.arcaneknowledge.org/histpoli/cia-chile.htm

Coups, economic warfare, assassination.

Those are methods we know for certain the CIA has used in the past.

Perhaps someday we will learn what they have been doing in Venezuela, although a paper trail is unlikely.

What we do know is immediately after the failed coup attempt in Venezuela, many of the traitors were shielded from prosecution by the US.

And just as the supporters of US policy laughed at the idea the US was involved in Chile I'm sure many will scoff at the idea that the US has not been engaging in covert economic warfare in Venezuela.

Of course I scoff at that naive assessment that turns known US behavior on it's head.

 

[Axulus]

And just as the supporters of US policy laughed at the idea the US was involved in Chile I'm sure many will scoff at the idea that the US has not been engaging in covert economic warfare in Venezuela.

Of course I scoff at that naive assessment that turns known US behavior on it's head.

Why would you need to invent some additional external cause when all the known facts explain quite well what is happening to Venezuela's economy?

It's kind of like saying that yes, the theory of evolution explains all the observed facts in biology and paleontology quite well, but God did it.

 

[untermensche]

And just as the supporters of US policy laughed at the idea the US was involved in Chile I'm sure many will scoff at the idea that the US has not been engaging in covert economic warfare in Venezuela.

Of course I scoff at that naive assessment that turns known US behavior on it's head.

Why would you need to invent some additional external cause when all the known facts explain quite well what is happening to Venezuela's economy?

It's kind of like saying that yes, the theory of evolution explains all the observed facts in biology and paleontology quite well, but God did it.

That is exactly what the supporters of US murder and malfeasance said about Chile.

They claimed it's economy was faltering on it's own.

But those of us who are not naive children are slightly more skeptical.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Coups, economic warfare, assassination.

Those are methods we know for certain the CIA has used in the past.

Perhaps someday we will learn what they have been doing in Venezuela, although a paper trail is unlikely.

What we do know is immediately after the failed coup attempt in Venezuela, many of the traitors were shielded from prosecution by the US.

And just as the supporters of US policy laughed at the idea the US was involved in Chile I'm sure many will scoff at the idea that the US has not been engaging in covert economic warfare in Venezuela.

Of course I scoff at that naive assessment that turns known US behavior on it's head.

You continue to assume the fate of Venezuela is due to outside interference.

There's simply no reason for outside economic sabotage--anyone who actually understands economics knew it would self destruct anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

Why would you need to invent some additional external cause when all the known facts explain quite well what is happening to Venezuela's economy?

It's kind of like saying that yes, the theory of evolution explains all the observed facts in biology and paleontology quite well, but God did it.

That is exactly what the supporters of US murder and malfeasance said about Chile.

They claimed it's economy was faltering on it's own.

But those of us who are not naive children are slightly more skeptical.

You presented possible evidence of political manipulation, not of economic sabotage.

 

[untermensche]

You continue to assume the fate of Venezuela is due to outside interference.

There's simply no reason for outside economic sabotage--anyone who actually understands economics knew it would self destruct anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

Why would you need to invent some additional external cause when all the known facts explain quite well what is happening to Venezuela's economy?

It's kind of like saying that yes, the theory of evolution explains all the observed facts in biology and paleontology quite well, but God did it.

That is exactly what the supporters of US murder and malfeasance said about Chile.

They claimed it's economy was faltering on it's own.

But those of us who are not naive children are slightly more skeptical.

You presented possible evidence of political manipulation, not of economic sabotage.

I presented evidence that Nixon and Kissinger used the CIA to engage in economic warfare in Chile.

The US is not the protector of the world. It is not a productive force in the world.

The US is a scourge on the world. One of the most destructive nations in world history.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You continue to assume the fate of Venezuela is due to outside interference.

There's simply no reason for outside economic sabotage--anyone who actually understands economics knew it would self destruct anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

Why would you need to invent some additional external cause when all the known facts explain quite well what is happening to Venezuela's economy?

It's kind of like saying that yes, the theory of evolution explains all the observed facts in biology and paleontology quite well, but God did it.

That is exactly what the supporters of US murder and malfeasance said about Chile.

They claimed it's economy was faltering on it's own.

But those of us who are not naive children are slightly more skeptical.

You presented possible evidence of political manipulation, not of economic sabotage.

I presented evidence that Nixon and Kissinger used the CIA to engage in economic warfare in Chile.

The US is not the protector of the world. It is not a productive force in the world.

The US is a scourge on the world. One of the most destructive nations in world history.

Terminating support isn't economic warfare, whatever your source might think.

 

[untermensche]

Terminating support isn't economic warfare, whatever your source might think.

It sure is.

But you also forgot about all the artificial shortages created in collusion with business owners.

It looks very similar to what is happening in Venezuela.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Terminating support isn't economic warfare, whatever your source might think.

It sure is.

No, because there's no obligation to provide that help in the first place.

But you also forgot about all the artificial shortages created in collusion with business owners.

It looks very similar to what is happening in Venezuela.

Once again you can't see reality through your socialist eyes. Those shortages are the result of the government meddling with the market. Insist that companies sell things too cheap and instead of cheap goods you get no goods. We see this over and over from the left. They try to decree prices and then blame capitalist meddlers for the shortages that result.

 

[Axulus]

Terminating support isn't economic warfare, whatever your source might think.

It sure is.

But you also forgot about all the artificial shortages created in collusion with business owners.

It looks very similar to what is happening in Venezuela.

You've just entered tin foil hat territory.

 

[coloradoatheist]

It sure is.

But you also forgot about all the artificial shortages created in collusion with business owners.

It looks very similar to what is happening in Venezuela.

You've just entered tin foil hat territory.

The belief that businesses don't want to make money?

 

[Barbarian]

Terminating support isn't economic warfare, whatever your source might think.

It sure is.

But you also forgot about all the artificial shortages created in collusion with business owners.

It looks very similar to what is happening in Venezuela.

It's amazing how this accusation keeps being brought up; by now it rivals the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in stubborn persistence. This was one of the familiar accusations leveled at peasants in the heydays of Eastern European socialism->communism. They were supposed to be hiding their products in order to rack up prices, so it was just reasonable to send armed men and take away all food from them, on the assumption that they are so good at hiding it that what the militia did not find will be enough for them. And it was indeed enough in Romania and Hungary in the early 1950's, but it wasn't enough in the 1920's of Ukraine. Oh well, mistakes were made.

 

[untermensche]

First we have the words of Henry Kissinger.

Kissinger: "the President's view is to do the maximum possible to prevent an Allende takeover, but through Chilean sources and with a low posture."

So Nixon wants to do everything possible to prevent Allende from taking over. Those above the age of three understand what this means. It means the US will observe no law or moral restrictions in it's actions to prevent another nation from engaging in the democratic process in peace.

"We didn't do it," Kissinger replied on the issue of direct involvement in the coup. I mean we helped them. [Deleted] created the conditions as great as possible."

As Kissinger told the President: "In the Eisenhower period we would be heroes."

Here we see what a piece of work Kissinger was. The US did the "maximum possible" to "create the conditions" for the undermining of the democratic process in Chile.

And he sees this as heroic.

Few men in history have been as twisted as this creature.

And of course if the US was not intimately involved why would Kissinger be a hero?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-kornbluh/35-years-after-original-9_b_125447.html

With his own words we see that Kissinger was willing to do anything to unseat Allende and he also took credit for doing it.

Now we have the memo created by ITT to outline what should be done about Chile.



This was introduced into the US Congressional record.

So we have an administration willing to do anything and a huge corporation telling them how to destroy Chile's economy.

Some of us can put two and two together.